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There was a guy in a yeshiva I was in who would tell the story of a mashgiach walking in on a bachur lounging on the floor, a beer in hand and a Ketzos haChoshen propped up on his legs. “Yanky,” he said to him, “that’s no way to learn a Ketzos.” “No, Rebbi,” the bachur replied, but it’s a great way to drink a beer.”
Scottsdale21, will you please be my mother-in-law!!! 🙂
TheFakeMaven, chilling and beer have only one thing in common: beer is a drink that people can drink while relaxing. And why are you so sure you understand the mentality behind it better than they do?
“It is certainly better for Yeshiva bochorim to avoid pastimes such as talk radio.”
Your right, better drunk and puking in the dorm, than listening to the occasional ballgame. I guess, you guide your bachurim with your derech, and I will let my sons be guided by their rabbeim, who happen to disagree with you.
Why are you presenting a strawman? Do you also say trespassing isn’t bad because at least it isn’t shoplifting?
And your children’s rebbeim clearly, in their wisdom, don’t permit the bochorim to tune into talk radio during recess. Which is exactly what you attacked today’s hanhala in yeshivos for not accommodating when you kvetched that bochorim today can’t steam off with Bob Grant (or his contemporary successors.)
And that slams the lid on things for today…
Mar Zutra the son of Rav Nachman said: The Torah teaches a rule of good conduct, in that a parent should not accustom his son to eating meat and drinking wine (Chullin 84a).
Do not be among those who guzzle wine, among those who gorge
themselves on flesh (Proverbs 23:20).
Commentary: We are enjoined to “know God in all your ways.” [Even our physical nature must be used in divine service.] However, one who consumes wine and meat to excess does not know the way of God (Rabbeinu Bachaya, Deuteronomy 21:18).Desist from eating more than a minimum of meat, even on the Sabbath, for this weakens the soul, and harms her. Similarly, you do not know how much spiritual damage drinking wine indulgently brings about. Therefore, withhold your feet from these paths and deny your soul these pleasures. Exercise the greatest vigilance in such matters.
The masses take this world at face value. They neither look, nor see, but
eat and drink to the satisfaction of their Evil Inclination. Woe unto them, that the world fools them for a hand writes Above, and afterward their deeds will be investigated and punished. Thus, it is written: “What shall you do on the day of reckoning?” (Isaiah 10:3). Fortunate are you, in that you have been warned. Cause your loved ones to listen, as well, that they may awaken from their spiritual sleep (Maggid Meisharim, Azharos V’Tikkunim U’Siyagim, 6, 18)This thread is hilarious!! Thank you guys
Simple: I’m fresh out of a ‘top yeshivah’ and know the bochorim there. i’ve been there done that.
Let me ask you, do you honestly think any of these ‘top bochorim’ learn hashkaffah? Mussar some do, but that isn’t hashkafah.Your sons are typical ‘good bochorim’. Sadly it is the norm in our age. It doesn’t mean there hashkafahs are correct. But, take heart, bochorim today’s days aren’t taught hashkafah in yeshivas so it’s not fault…..
I have dealt with and known bachurim for a long time. Almost everyone responding here are partially responsible for the Off the derech problem. Any bachur who has a good self esteem will drink responsibly and exhibit other positive behavior. Also, with the pressure put on the bachurim today and everything that they can do to relax even if it is haskaficly correct, is deemed asur. now you have these dimwits saying a beer is asur, going to bbq is asur, sports is asur , listening to Jewish music is asur( yes this does exist)a I’ve told my boys and others that come to my house Fri night having a beer or 2 with chulent is ok, having a bbq and drinking 1 beer is ok but when some of them came shabbos afternoon with a large tote of beer i took it away. I told them theres no reason to have beer shabbos afternoon. You got to show them how to behave and most will listen is said the correct way.
I know top a bachur from a top yeshiva during bain hazmanim he will have a drink of scotch , a beer or 2. But he told me that during the zman he does not touch anything. many know how to handel it if they have been show how to do it responsibly.
Regrettably, many yeshivas learn mussar but it is not strongly emphasized. I know of 1 yeshiva which i won’t name, they spend lots and lots of time pounding way on giving over haskafh. Also, the Hanhalah give vadim where the bachurim can ask anything they want or the rebbeim will pose a topic to discuss. Lastly, once in 3 weeks the rebbeim will have a Shabbos night oneg at there house that could last up to 3 hours.They talk about anything on there mind. Sadly, not many do this. This is a great way for the bachurim to learn how to deal with todays situations. It drives home the message that gamara learning alone will not give over the proper Torah perspective and that they need to learn mussar and hear haskafh.haskafa, morever what you wrote that ‘you have to show them how to behave…’ is also partially incorrect. the issue here is that bochorim have no hashkafa, they are not taught it in yeshiva, nor do they learn it themselves. they must learn hashkaffah not only mussar. when learning Nefesh Hachaim why do all yeshivas skip to perek 4? is there not a reason why perek 4 is not perek 1? And saying that since the first three perakim deal with kabalistic concepts one must skip it, is begging the question- did not R’ Chaim write the whole sefer for everyone? isn’t clear that he felt it necessary for everyone to konw it?
Haskafa, you are only partially correct. The truth is that since today all legitimate hobbies are frowned upon, be it art, music, learning secular (kosher) subjects, and that is the reason why we sadly have so many otd cases, it does not change the fact that the ‘chilli with a beer’ is a hefkerediga concept and is not OK for bochorim to do it.
I am not going ti deny that our community has an issue with bachurim drinking too much and others who go OTD. However, that does not mean we have to keep bachurim totally sheltered and not allowed to experience anything. Maybe we should take a lesson from R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg TZATZAL who was known to be a very good baseball pitcher in his younger days. He would motivate his students by telling them “if Lefty Scheinberg can do it, so can you”.
When I was in Mesivta in the late ’70s, our Menahel asked myself and another bochur to go buy 5 big bottles of beer for the Chanukah mesiba.
TheFakeMaven: I totally disagree with your comment “it does not change the fact that the ‘chilli with a beer’ is a hefkerediga concept and is not OK for bochorim to do it.”. There is nothing wrong with a bochur having some “relaxation time” and to have a beer while eating at a BBQ.
iacisrmma, You’re making a mistake by combining two separate things, namely sports and chilling. There is nothing wrong with sports or other pastimes, on the contrary it is commendable for bochorim to have a hobby that they enjoy. but ‘chilling’ is not a Yiddishe concept. I challenge you to find one real gadol that ‘chills’ with beer and the like.
TheFakeMaven: You have never seen a gadol drink a beer at a sholom zachor?
What do you consider “chilling”? I consider my son when he is home, sitting talking to his parents or siblings and drinking a beer to be “chilling” and I don’t see anything wrong with that.
and as to what ‘chilling’ means. there is no need for a bottle of beer to relax, it is like smoking. nobody likes smoking when they start, yet because of social pressure they persist and become addicted to smoking. the same is with alcohol, these young bochorim do not even enjoy it, it’s just a ‘cool’ and ‘in’ thing to do. that is why it is wrong.
but again, relaxing is not wrong at all, a hefkerdige mindset is.iacisrmma: I don’t know if you are purposefully misconstruing my intentions, but I will clarify my words nevertheless. I’ve never said that beer is inherently a bad thing, all I’ve been saying is that ‘chilling with a beer’ is a hefkerdige concept. it is goyish in the extreme. not the actual drink. So of course gedolim would drink beer, but they dont ‘chill’ with beer.
—At the end of the day a bachur that is sitting and learning top or not needs a chance to chill whether its a ciggarette or a beer that is what guys do. If it gets out of control i.e. Addicted to smoking, or constantly drinking high volumes then you can start having a conversation. As far as shiduchim is concerned-any girl in this day and age that will be concerned that the shiduch has a beer or two i wish her much hatzlacha because this is just what guys do.
Sojewish47: first off, you are right that is ‘just what guys do’, but that doesn’t it make it a correct thing to do, and it just shows that our chinuch system needs a major revamp. As for cigarettes, you are wrong, since even one cigarette is an issur deoraisa and cannot be condoned.
and just to reiterate, even if it is the norm, it is still wrong.Bachurim have limited time. If they want to chill, and they also want to drink a beverage of their choice, they’re just gonna have to multitask.
Thefakemaven: I don’t think our chimichanga system needs revamping. I think that adults have to start thinking logically and not turn normal activities into the category of hefkeirus. There is nothing wrong with a bachurim having a beer every now and then.
As I stated previously, I would be a hypocrite if I did not let my daughters date someone who occasionally drank a beer. I too was a bachur at one time and I can recall my friends drinking a beer even though we weren’t 18 yet (when 18 was the legal age). Nobody then thought it was hefkeirus. I don’t think we should take that approach now.
P.S Mr.fakemaven having a cigarrete not bkvius is proven to be “not unhealthy” therefore it is not an issur.
Iacsramma you took the words right out of my mouth (the first part)
I will not get involved whether its right or wrong in hashkafah for a bochur to drink a beer every so often or smoke a bit during bein hasdarim, bein hazmanim. But what I will give my opinion is to as why we as parents (b’ikar) also mechanchim rabbeim are getting stuck on bochurim drinking a bit, smoking a bit. Instead all our koichos should be almost entirely on the nisayon hador which not one bochur (also parents) are exempt from regarding shemiras einayim and the danger of smartphones. Its sad to see so many bochurim (even ones that look all innocent) who have fallen. Its about getting the bochur HIMSELF to understand why its the wrong thing, because w/o this theres nothing stopping the bochur from buying a smartphone from cvs(for $20) w/o parents knowing.( Agav, I do not work for guardyoureyes.com)
We have a chimichanga system?
If you don’t want bachurim to have smartphones, explain to them why it is wrong to have one.
ry23: “predictive spelling” changed the word. It was supposed to be “chinuch system”
I think we should teach young people to use alcohol responsibly and that this is a very important part of chinuch.
I don’t object to bochurim enjoying/relaxing at a BBQ and enjoying a cold beer during Bein Hazmanim. I’d much rather they do it then than sneak beer in the dorms (as we did in my day).
Youngest Ms.CTL’s wedding will be I”H August 4th, during Bein Hazmanim. By the couple’s request it will be a BBQ on the grounds of the CTL compound. I sure hope the bochurim who are friends and guests of the groom will chill and enjoy cold beer which will be flowing from the taps to go with the delicious BBQ being served.CTL: The wedding is Erev Shabbos?
Instead of consuming the flesh of animals and drinking alcoholic beverages, just drink an egg cream. You have to drink it right away, so you’ll know when you’ve chilled too long.
@lowerouttuition11210
Typo..Sunday the 6th“It is certainly better for Yeshiva bochorim to avoid pastimes such as talk radio.”
Like I wrote earlier. You run your Yeshiva your way. My sons Rabbeim will run their Yeshiva, their way.
“I know this because my rebbe said so.”
You must be a bachur in Josephs yeshiva.
Okay, let your bochorim listen to Michael Savage and Ann Coulter. But don’t be surprised when they mimick those talkheads filthy language. And certainly don’t come here, as you did earlier in this thread, and complain about yeshivos that don’t permit bochorim to listen to talk radio like you did during your recess.
Do they want to listen to talk radio?
APY kvetched that Yeshivos don’t allow talk radio during down time. If he’s kvetching about it presumably he has a reason to kvetch.
APY was in Yeshiva at a time when people still listened to talk radio.
I must add, Bochurim also shouldn’t have any texting !! forsure not Twiter to follow ESPN/Trump or
“ENDA-MEM MUSIC “V’Echulu…. VERY VERY DANGEROUS!!!!!Besides for the fact that bachurim need to relax (sometimes out of the box), Why would you want to marry someone whos picky enough to not marry you because you drink beer?
Also, better they drink beer than other things they might do
Worse they drink beer than other other things they might do.
No, I’m simply stating that there are both better and worse things to do than drink beer.
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