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this is something that has really bothered me, and i know i’ll be lumped with rabbi levin for saying this but is it really worth compromising on morals when choosing candidates simply because they are proponents of expanded social services? at what point does it become too much? at what point must we stand up for morals and the torah? at what point must we give up on certain social services to preserve morals? is there such a point?
i’m seeing it more and more now especially because of rabbi levin. people who are saying that the moral stance of a candidate is completely irrelevant because they will give us money, and it really bothers me a lot. take anthony weiner for example, the guy is a menuval of the highest order, and yet many organizations associate with him and even endorse him, this may just be a childish feeling on my part, but arent there things that we should not compromise on?
people say that gay rights is a moot point, is it really? people say that abortion is a moot point, is it really? people say that various unsavory forms of education is a moot point, is it really? how much are we to give up just for social services? i know that it is important to learn all day, i know that it is very important and that torah is the foundation of the universe, but it really bothers me that the same people who learn all day and in fact support the world with their learning, are pushing to the side the very torah that they are studying. in my humble opinion the contamination of our society is a very serious issue.
it may not seem like a big deal to some people, because we are yidden and these things seemingly do not affect us, but they really do. even if we do not have a very large problem with homosexuals the influence is there in the community. everything wee see influences us whether for good or for bad. everything that happens in goyishe society affects us as well however minutely, how much are we to compromise on?
how much are we to be mevater on? how much of teh torah’s values are we to allow trampled so that we can learn the torah all day? i am not advocating the closing of kollelim, nor am i saying that sitting in kollel or beis medrash is wrong, to the contrary i hold those who do in very high esteem. they are living the ideal spiritual life. but it seems so contradictory to live one’s life learning the torah, and absorbing it’s values and then to support a menuval of a politician simply because he promises increased social services. we should be supporting strong candidates who are strong on values that we believe are true, or at least as close to ours as possible.
i really feel that this is important, and that money should not be the focus. the next generation is being raised in this very unstable time of liberal change and social change. their future is in our hands. which influences are going to expose them to? are we going to give them the message that iniquity and immorality can be overlooked for the sake of social services? once again, i understand that fewer people could sit and learn all day if social services were not increased, but might it not be worth it to an extent to preserve what is right and the proper hashkafos?
i’m rambling, but you get my drift i hope. please discuss below.
You make a very sensible point. I enjoyed reading your post.
What you’re implying is essentially the position of the folks in EY that don’t take a penny from the Govt. After all, its tainted money, and by extension, that taints everything it touches.
Personally, I have no problem with that whatsoever. I may not want XYZ as my kid’s schoolbus driver, and certainly not as a son-in-law, but do I really care if the governor or mayor or president has a lifestyle that runs counter mine? Not really.
Because when you really get down to the nuts and bolts of it, toevah is not that much different than eating chometz on pesach? Yet we don’t go running and screaming when a candidiate does that.
So (IMHO) its less to do with kovod hatorah, and more to do with social confort. I tell myself and my family, we are us (frum, bnei torah) and they are not. So it matter not one wit what the candidate does on his personal time, or who he associates with (unless its fringe nuts that pose a threat to my safety, like neo-nazis, which is not the case here).
Will this person run a good govt? Give him the job. Period. I don’t have to advertise who I voted for, and I certainly don’t need to hold press conferences. Let me hear what the positions are in the issues that matter to the city, and I’ll make a choice.
bombmaniac:
Very well said.
“Better that one’s Shabbos meals resemble one’s weekday meals than to rely on others for help,” Rabbi Akiva (Shabbos 118a).
So is voting for more social services actually an anti-Torah position?
Of course a person’s personal life status affects the way they do a job. Because it affects the way they view the world.
You know, something that came as a surprise to me: In Israel, a job candidate is expected to put on their resume their age, marital status and whether they have children and how many. Totally unacceptable practice in the States (illegal to request, I believe), but standard In the Holy Land.
Why? I think for the reason I mentioned above; whether being married is considered a benefit or detriment for a particular job, it is considered the potential employer’s right to know.
Politicians waive their right to privacy; we find out about every doctor’s appointment they have, and everything their kids do or don’t do. That is because the press has decided (and rightly so, in my opinion), that everything they do is related in some way to what they stand for and/or how well they are able to do their job.
If you don’t believe in what a politician stands for in their personal life, you are likely to find yourself disagreeing with their policies at some point down the line. Follow your instinct.
OK, Bomb.. lets begin:
1 – When I compared chometz to toevia, I was refering to the fact that both carry the penalty of korias (the penalty for the transgressions, when bais din cannot carry out the sentence.
2 – of course I know the outside world influences me. So I keep a safe distance. Not hide under a rock, but at the same time, I don’t cozy up to the suburban family man, with wife, 2.2 kids and a dog either. Those who don’t believe in the torah are to be dealt with from a safe distance. Makes no matter what rule you’re breaking.
3 – I didn’t think I was bringing R’ Levin into the picture. The “good govt” I was referring to is the one that keeps pur budget in check, crime under control, and the trains running on time (ok, that I could compromise on).
And for the record, I don’t give 2 hoots about “social services” as things like welfare, food stamps and sec 8 (or hud, if you live in NJ) only hurt me, as the collectors of these things cause the prices of goods and rent to spike for working stiffs like me.
And no, I don’t mean the single mom, or out of work dad. I mean the folks who drive a leased car and pay for tuna dip with a Benefit Card.
So, if a candidate is all for throwing around $$$ to social services, he’s not speaking to me at all.
Bomb guy you’re beautiful.
The issue of politicians supporting policies that are antithetical to Torah,but given support by frum groups is a problem. The analogy to the Satmar in Eretz Yisrael is a good one but the Satmar here , look the other way , as long as they get their piece of the pie. I really have trouble with all this. How a candidate who supports positions, such as toeva marriage, gets support from Orthodox groups in beyond me. We are supposed to be a light unto the nations, in a way, the conscience of the world. We certainly are not living up to that standard. For example, to support Wiener or Cuomo, whose policies are clearly not in accordance with our beliefs, is problematic. You don’t have to support them or the opponent. Just clearly state this is our belief and we cannot support a candidate who holds such views. Of course, the issue is money, and getting “stuff” from the elected officials. I sure wish there were more people with backbone and guts to stand up and take a firm, clear stance on some of these issues, and not what is “politically correct” so they can pick up some government money or favor.
The E’Y analogy does not work at all. There is an important distinction between things that are non-Jewish (i.e., things said, done, and thought by non-jews who have no obligation to follow our Torah) and things that are un-Jewish (i.e., things said, done, and thought by fellow Jews that are obligated to adhere to the Torah, but choose not to do so).
There is little inherent problem with associating or supporting things non-Jewish, but associating or associating with things that are un-Jewish, even if you do strictly adhere to the Torah, runs the risk of implicitly legitimizing a Jew’s break with halachah.
Satmer and many others have problems with the Israeli government because it is an un-Jewish institution. The State of NY, or the United States, or any other country for that matter is a non-Jewish establishment. Even when they go wrong, supporting and associating with them does not risk legitimizing the uprooting of Torah ideals. Any reasonable person should be able to recognize that the State of NY is not bound to follow the Torah, so if they adopt though legislation non-Torah morals this says nothing about what the Torah or Jews say.
I think its a pretty big accusation to make that the Satmar Rebbe and the Agudah Rabbonim and all the other Rabbanim that have been ok with pro gay or gay candidates are going against the Torah. Let’s stop being so ARROGANT and maybe ask some of those Gedolim or even our own Rovs what the Heter is. If Daas Torah is ok with it then obviously it is us who is wrong and we lack understanding. This is not a simple topic and obviously there are many things to take into consideration.
By supporting a candidate or endorsing one we in no way say we are in agreement on ALL the issues, just that we feel this candidate is more beneficial to the needs OF OUR COMMUNITY.
Everybody knows homosexuality is assur according to the Torah and nobody will think “oh if the Jew support this candidate it must be that homosexuality is mutar” and if they do its their problem for being ignorant because our Torah says that Homosexuality is assur and the Christians believe in the old Testament and also agree its assur, so what will be lost by voting for a pro gay candidate?
You are forgetting, at issue is marriage not whether its legal or illegal to be gay! The gays will keep on doing what they do whether gay marriage becomes voted into law or not. If you think about it, this won’t effect the amount of gay people there are. Its not like the second it becomes legal all of a sudden millions will become gay because they can marry a gay person. We all agree that that is absurd? So in reality gay marriage will not effect the spiritual atmosphere that much if at all. We have to keep educating our kids about what’s right and wrong regardless of what the non Jews do.
In reality it is the Torah learning that controls the world and keeps things at bay. Its our job to do what’s necessary to make sure Torah learning continues and grows. That’s the best way to fight Homosexuality or any other immorality.
Daas Torah is clearly not okay with it. All Gedolim who have addressed the issue of whether we may vote for a candidate that supports, on a policy level, immorality — have unequivocally said NO in big capital letters.
(The fact some rabbi may have supported a specific candidate that supported immorality, says nothing to the fact whether said rabbi was aware of all such candidate’s policy positions in question.)
And don’t kid yourself that toeiva marriage “will not effect the spiritual atmosphere that much if at all.”
Bombmaniac, I’m glad you brought up this subject because I feel as you do. It seems that most Yidden have no idea what it means “the redefinition of marriage.” It’s one thing if they want to sin privately and do their own thing, but it goes much further than that. They want acknowledgement that they are as normal as what is called “straight marriage “: one woman and one man. They want to bring into society a new definition that everyone will have to acknowledge: that it is as normal for 2 men to marry or 2 women as one man and one woman. This is totally against HKB”H will. By doing this, everyone will become confused and right will be wrong and wrong will be right. THere are people who are saying that once you start redefining marriage, then it becomes a free for all. Who’s to stop a judge from marrying say, 2 men and 1 woman? When you open a pandora’s box, everything is possible. Not only that, but there are people who say even animals will come into play. There will be marriages between people and animals. Don’t believe? Look up the prestigious Princeton University professor, Peter SInger, (Yes, Jewish) who teaches and writes books that there is no difference between a human being and an animal, so that if a baby and a dog are drowning, you don’t have to save the baby rather than the dog. Please look him up before you say I’m rambling incoherently.
Secondly, you are mistaken if you think this is only a goyisha thing. Azoi vee s’critaled zech, yiddeled zech. Go see what’s happening in YU. Yup, you got frum people who are openly gay and proud of it. Not only that, but they have gathering of faculty and students where they come out and argue their case.
You have to remember that there is a huge difference between a person sinning, and legislating the sin into law. Shades of S’dom and Amorrah.
So you really need to give credit to Rabbi Levin. He’s going out on a limb when it is not politically correct to do so. Personally I think he’s doing the work we should be doing, but we don’t like to rock the boat, to ruffle any feathers, so we do the politically correct thing and ostracize him. You know, we should be honest with ourselves, if we lived in the time of Avraham Avinu, we probably would have said to him, stop making so much trouble. Of course we don’t believe in Avoda Zora, but just bow down to Nimrod and be quiet. You’re just a troublemaker, and do you want to end up in the kivshon Ha Aish?
No, nobody can compare to our patriarch Avrohom. But just remember, he was called H’Ivri because he stood against everyone. In other words, he was politically incorrect!!
Who knows, if this is not the test for our generation.
bombmaniac
Not everything that is Assur for us is assur for non Jews. Many people dont know that it is assur for a non Jew to have homosexual relations. You and I know that so we are against it but the people who dont know, why should they be against it if they think it only applies to Jews?
Ben Torah,
Are you really a Ben Torah? Everyone has known that Mike Bloomberg has been an outspoken public supporter of same sex marriage since before his re-election in 2005. Do you really think that the gedolim who supported him didn’t know that?
You have essentialy called gedolim ignoramuses.
BP totty and RSRH,there is an issue of chillul HaShem involved here – in supporting candidates who are openly for very anti-Torah things. Plus, we are supposed to try to prevent the non-Jews from doing aveiros, if we could (Rambam ,Hilchos Melochim; Rabbeynu Yehudah Hachassid).
charles, watch your words. which godol is on the record as having supported Mike Bloomberg? (Also, the mayor of NYC has no legal input on toeiva marriage laws or the power to veto it. But that is a secondary issue.)
Whether or not it is assur for non-Jews to live a gay life, we live in a country that votes on its moral issues. We are GUESTS here, whether or not we like it, and as such we don’t get to make the rules, in any meaningful sense. Use your votes to give yourself a voice, but ultimately, majority will rule. We do not live in a Theocracy, but rather a Democracy. And we don’t get to tell people how to live their lives, in spite of our disagreement with their abhorrent lifestyle. Not here, anyway.
BTW, this is the answer to why we need the Torah. When left to its own devices, society will alter its moral stance to suit the times. Only the Torah is constant.
People who want expanded social services should read Atlas Shrugged.
to Srpsych: many job applications as part of their routine security check and reference background ask for your gender marital status and age not common is how many kids. Additionally,many jobs ask the same questions in round about ways I.E. Are you ever available to work on weekends, fly out of town, work overtime without prior notice etc…
I find it laughable that a candidate’s support for gay marriage should be the reason for not voting for him. Whether you want more social services for the community or a government that is better run that provides fewer services, to use a candidate’s support for gay marriage as the deciding factor is ridiculous.
If you are concerned about social norms that may affect the community, why use only gay marriage? How about voting based on whether the candidate supports the right for a person to be in a non-marriage relationship with someone of the same gender? That also affects society, in making it appear that gays are acceptable. The torah doesn’t say anything about gay marriage only about being gay.
In fact, why not always vote for the Jewish candidate over a non-Jew? If the non-Jew wins it will show our kids that being non Jewish may be ok (as rabbis still meet with him and urge people to vote for him). If your response to this last question is that we live in a country where we don’t have the luxury of being in the majority and we have to live with the majority’s values and religions as part of “society”, then why should gay marriage be any different?
No one answered my question.
“Better that one’s Shabbos meals resemble one’s weekday meals than to rely on others for help,” Rabbi Akiva (Shabbos 118a).
So is voting for more social services actually an anti-Torah position?
That has long been removed from Halacha. No need to worry about it now.
Bobmaniac, Why Should I leave Rabbi Levin out of it? He is being politically incorrect because he is standing (alone) by Torah values. That’s just my point! We are afraid of doing that so shouldn’t we support someone who does it for us? How does it look when the whole Jewish community goes along with this toeva, for all the wrong reasons.
You think only Jews have these values? Read some conservative web sites and you will be amazed at how many goyim are vehemently against this toeiva. They understand better than you, that this is just an attempt by the liberals to turn our society into an immoral, g-dless,culture that will not be bound by any religious laws whatsoever, laws that they refer to as Judaic-Christian values. If you knew what liberalism is you would understand they are for freedom from all laws that restrict mankind from whatever he wants.
George Soros, a self hating Jew who is a billionaire is supporting most of these liberal organizations that want to destroy the fabric of our civilization. As a teenager, he collaborated with the nazis y”m and helped them find hidden yidden. This is common knowledge, he doesn’t deny it and is even proud of it. He hates G-d and all religion; he will tell you that himself. He has manipulated markets and people and became a billionaire. He uses his money to destroy our constitution and American values. He was greatly involved in getting Obama to the presidency.
So don’t for a moment think that if you vote for someone who is planning to legislate this toeiva into law that it will not affect you. It will affect all of us. We will be forced to teach that this is normal practice because otherwise we will be considered racist or homophobic and our yeshivas will not be eligible for any money.
To have this legislated into law is only the beginning. If these g-dless liberals win, C’V, many more of our values will be trashed. As it is, the liberals do not respect the constitution, they consider it an obstacle to their movement. Hence, the strong outcry and the tea party. Halevi, the tea party prevails. If they don’t, we as frum Jews will not be able to live in this country as before.
bomb, FYI:
Websters unabridged:
Liberal: 1: Marked by generosity
2: Lacking moral restraints
Libertarian: An advocate of the doctrine of free will.
To believe in free will, you have to believe in right and wrong, good and evil.
Liberals are moral relativists. It’s all relative. You have to look at the person’s perspective. THus, evil people like Stalin, Hitler y’s, Pol Pot, also have a point of view and from their point of view they are right.
If I don’t make sense, don’t bother reading. This is a public forum and I don’t speak to you directly.
Bombmaniac, kudos and brochos
Gavra-at-work, who told you so? Look in Mishna Brura, siman 242.
“with respect to child molestation that is obviously a moral (as well as criminal) issue”
One issue does not negate the other.
“Rather, many in the community are personally disgusted with gays and their lifestyle regardless of what the Torah says and therefore feel comfortable making it an issue.”
No, we’re disgusted PRECISELY BECAUSE the Torah says we should be.
The latter, whilst absolutely terrible, is highly infrequent despite what what the blogosphere loudmouths (who are no friends of the Torah to say the least) would like you to believe.
Helpful, unfortunately, its more common than most people want to believe. Its also something we have more power over. I would rather fight to maintain the purity of the poor little kids who are affected by this, than to rail against gay marriage. Gay marriage has a much less affect on Orthodox Judaism than molestation.
I have heard in the name of R’ Avigdor Miller that it is a chillul Hashem for a jew to vote for a candidate that is pro gay rights, killing babies, etc. And regardless of whether or not RAM did indeed say this, it’s still a point worth thinking about.
“I would rather fight to maintain the purity of the poor little kids who are affected by this, than to rail against gay marriage.”
So would I, but why are the two mutually exclusive?
mw13:
R’ Miller ztl said even more than that. He said better to vote for an anti-semite than a candidate who supports abortion or toeiva.
JD4, Outrageous comparison — nobody is trying to condone or legalise child molestation! Plus, it is a ma’ala to be disgusted with gays, no matter the exact reason why! (I don’t mean because a couple of them stepped on your foot).
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