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I’m no fan of interracial marriages because of the mixed kids they produce, which can pose problems for them. But that aside, I don’t know why a person would want to become part of a hostile atmosphere by marrying into a family that just won’t accept him. Sounds like masochistic move.
Because being married is better than being single.
Does the gemara ever use the svara “tav limaisav tan du” regarding men?
For a non-white Jewish person, a mixed-race marriage is likely the only option.
How a person could have some of the racist attitudes expressed here towards mixed marriages and yet consider themselves to be religious is beyond me. flatbusher, the problems that you say mixed kids produce is directly related to attitudes such as yours
Flatbusher,
1. What do you mean “mixed kids”? Do you think that they will come out with half the face black and the other white?
2. So if the parents (not the whole family) won’t accept him because he doesn’t learn in the father’s yeshiva, is too tall, too short or any other hair-brained reason they shouldn’t get married? There would almost not be any marriages.
welcome to the real world lesschumras. in a utopian society we wouldnt discuss this, but, we do not live in utopia.
you call it the “real world”, I call it a continuation of the narrow mindedness I so often read on these threads. Not everyone feels this way, it is not a “global” problem, and it isn’t fair to make it seem like one just to excuse yourself for your thoughts. I would be so much happier if my son brought home a tzanua, kindhearted black woman than a tightly clothed, zumba-obsessed white woman. In the real “real” world it’s about the frumkeit, not the color.
RY -“For a non-white Jewish person, a mixed-race marriage is likely the only option.”
Wrong. There are plenty (not plenty) of Frum black girls!
“it is not a “global” problem,”
if 50% of the people believe this way it is global. I am certain it is probably closer to 80% (or more). I’m no pollster and I have not taken any polls, but I am certain I am correct.
“There are plenty (not plenty) of Frum black girls!”
Which is it, plenty or not plenty?
I married a Baal Teshuva. Many folks of my parents’ generation did not want their children who were FFB to date someone whose parents were not frum. Did that make them “frum”-ists (I can’t think of another word to describe religious chauvinists)? I don’t believe so. My parents indeed would have preferred for me to marry a boy from a frum family, machetonim with whom they would have potentially (though it is not always the case even with a frum other side)had something in common other than the children. Fortunately they saw what I SAW, when they met my husband to be, who was one of the kindest and most derech-eretzdig people I have ever known. He was a great son to both his parents and mine and my parents loved him dearly and he, them.
That is not always the case, and not every parent can adapt as easily. While Politically Correct people will say the skin color/race should not matter (and it shouldn’t), it somehow DOES to many people, and they should not be castigated for their feelings. Just as we would want them tp understand how the OP feels, so too should the OP and others who have supported his position understand how THEY feel. Neither side is wrong for their feelings IN THIS CASE. What may be wrong is how people act and react to their feelings. I wish there were an easy and ready solution.
apushatayid – “Which is it, plenty or not plenty”
When I wrote “plenty”, I was exaggerating! But there are some.
I think the “global” issue in Shidduchim is the girls because they are too picky!
At the very least, I don’t see how having a desire to marry a white girl is any worse than a desire to marry a blonde girl.
Your mother is a born Jew and your father a Native American Ger?
Oomis, TY for your lesson in moral relativism. So how far does one go with this nonsense? Suppose parents want their child to marry someone davka from the same neighborhood so that they can talk about “the good old days”? One of the marks of a wise person is his ability to find common ground with everyone. Thus, when the Chafetz Chaim found himself on a long wagon ride with some rural people (who were very much derided by townspeople) he spent the entire time discussing horses (and saved them from speaking lashon hara).
So there’s this chassidisher shadchan on the phone to an older girl we know,pushing her and pushing her to go out with a chassidisher boy.The usual stuff,your’e getting older,what does it matter so much if he’s chassidish,you’ll be happy,being litvish is not that important,as long as he is a good guy…
After an hour,she got the inspiration
“Mrs xxxxxx,would you let your daughter go out with a litvak?”
“CHAAAS VESHOLOM!!!!!!!!!!”
SP
I stand by my original post but would like to add one point.
How close is the girl you are dating to her parents?
There must be some distance since she is frum and they are not. But if she is very close to them, you need to assume worst case scenerio and plan from there. If they will basically stop talking to her, no matter what you will always be the reason for that.
If they aren’t close, than why worry about it?
If they were frum I would tell you to give them a copy of Rav Shlomo Friefelds biography. There is a fantastic story in there about the length he went to, to show respect to a student of his, that spent time studying Native American culture. Who knows, maybe the book would have a positive impact on their view of yiddishkeit in general.
Hatzlocho!
OK, I feel I must chime in again. I am actually astounded at the number of posts by people who are not ashamed to spout their ignorant biases. And by intelligent people who raise such illogical parallels. However, BH,”Shidduchproblem,” you can also sift through all these messages and find you have broad-minded friends and supporters. As with any and all issues which can be PERCEIVED as disadvantages, it does help you figure out who your friends are. Same with people with handicaps, stutterers, BT backgrounds…the issues which people can harp on and look down on are as diverse as life itself. May I make a little-known announcement that may actually make a whole slew of these posters fall down in a dead faint and maybe doubt their own Judaism, inasmuch as we are required to pledge allegiance daily to 13 attributes of faith which includes belief in MOshe Rabbeinu as being our unparalleled leader and Navi, who brought us our Torah (our LAW for LIVING folks)Will you people be able to do this wholeheartedly after learning of this fact?!: Moshe Rabbeinu (drum roll…try to breathe…) was married to a black woman!!! Ok, she wasn’t part Indian, but always remember the bright side, Mr. Shidduchproblem: In the USA you as a Native American are entitled to free higher education and so will all your kids be entitled. Maybe mention that to your perspective in-laws and see if money talks. Otherwise, in all seriousness, make sure your potential kallah can really emotionalluy handle this conflict, and plan to live far away form the I-L’s. hatzlacha.
Josep: “At the very least, I don’t see how having a desire to marry a white girl is any worse than a desire to marry a blonde girl.”
We are not talking about attraction. We are talking about parents not wanting their child to marry someone of a different race. Which is racist.
And if a parent cares about the color of the hair of their child’s spouse, there are probably some serious issues with that parent.
Actually I know a few jews who were Native American, they were converts
Matan1: And if a parent says they won’t allow a shidduch for their child with a Hungarian or Polish Jew, what is that? Shtusim perhaps, but what source do you have that it is some kind of aveira? Saying only a white shidduch is in the same category as saying only a German or American shidduch or saying no shidduch with a Hungarian or Polish candidate.
They are all racist.
That’s also very wrong.
I said shtusim, you said wrong and you said racist. Whatever you call it, is there something in Shulchan Aruch that makes it an aveira or is just dumb?
One of the reasons we have such diseases like Tay Sachs and that we need that organization that does genetic testing is because people dont want to marry outside their group. If a Ashkenaz marries a Sefard Tay sachs is highly unlikely
It is a mitzvah to get married and therefore it is assur to keep another person from getting married.
Oomis, TY for your lesson in moral relativism. So how far does one go with this nonsense? “
Avi, I am not talking about nonsense, I am speaking to the issue of how the parents of this girl feel. Right or wrong, it is a reality that this is a problem for these parents, and thus, also for the girl and the OP. Don’t shoot the messenger, for pointing out a hard truth. We may want to be more politically correct, and it is morally proper to NOT be racist, but the reality is that many parents feel exactly the way that this girl’s parents do.
I advocated for my close friend, who DID marry someone of another race. Her parents were violently opposed to the shidduch and her mother begged me to “talk some sense into her.” I told her that it was not my place nor would I be comfortable to shterr a shidduch; she was old enough to make up her own mind,and that the fellow was very nice and good to her. They also threw out the mixed race grandkids card. I understand that. B”H their grandkids are all gorgeous and made great shidduchim themselves, though they clearly are racially mixed. What is ideal is not the same thing as what is the metzius of frum life.
You cannot force people to change how they honestly feel about shidduchim that are outside their comfort zone, like it or not, right or wrong. Hopefully, after a couple gets married and kids DO come along, the parents can come to appreciate the marriage and the family that has been created from it.
You may be right that it’s not assur to be dumb. I don’t know. But at the very least, it shows a huge lack of kavod habrios and derech eretz,
I love your posts, oomis. It’s so easy to get caught up in theoretical fluff and forget that the world is nowhere near perfect, and we have to accept reality.
I just typed several paragraphs on my feelings on this topic and promptly deleted them, for fear of insulting someone. So I’ll leave my opinion out of this and suffice with these questions:
DY, Matan- if a shadchan would call you up and redt a person of a different race to your daughter/son, do you really think that you would not be… I can’t think of the right word. Not horrified, but something close to it?
If your son/daughter would come over to you one night and tell you that they’re about to get engaged to a person of a different race, would you happily give them your blessing?
Matan: Unless you announce to them that you’re child’s not going to date/marry them because they’re Polish or black or whatever, I don’t see any violation of kavod habrios or derech eretz.
Yes, but the case we are talking about is when the parents voice their objection to the shidduch
And if the parents nix the proposal for the same reason but without raising a fuss, giving some generic it’s not a good match answer, I don’t see any aveiras mentioned in Shulchan Aruch being violated. (I believe you agreed when you earlier said “that it’s not assur”.)
Again, not on topic. The OP is talking about a case where the parents are racist, and say no for that reason.
And in your hypothetical case, the parents are still showing a lack of midos. They are rejecting a shidduch for a terrible reason.
Oomis, if what you describe is the real world, would you be as accepting of a child going off the derech if being shomer shabbos was out of their comfort zone? Would a Rav get up on Yom Kippur and advise his olom that I know its difficult to do tshuva, what I’m asking you to do is outside your comfort zone, so hopefully one day in the future maybe you’ll change your feelings?
Oomis, many people talk during davening. Would you maintain that this is the mitzius of frum life and changing their feelings and behavior is out of their comfort zone?
Oomis, I agree that there are real world feelings, what concerns me is that in order to change, you have to believe your attitude needs changing and , based upon the posts, I don’t think they do
“I’ve never met a frum native Jew in my life.”
There is another fellow who married a girl from a g’yores background. His parents rejected their son eventhough he received a b’racha from Rav Moshe and his Rav before going ahead with the marriage.
So basically in these cases, it depends on how much emotional support one is receiving from friends and family and how much one is willing and able to endure (or lose).
DY, Matan- if a shadchan would call you up and redt a person of a different race to your daughter/son, do you really think that you would not be… I can’t think of the right word. Not horrified, but something close to it?
If your son/daughter would come over to you one night and tell you that they’re about to get engaged to a person of a different race, would you happily give them your blessing?
I’m not sure why this is addressed to me, but the answer to both questions is that you haven’t given me enough information about the shidduch. But no, the very thought of my child marrying a frum, ehrlich person who happens to be of a different race does not horrify me.
There’s also a big difference between the two questions. The first question is about considering such a shidduch, and there are practical issues, most notably the possible cultural differences.
The second scenario, where the shidduch is a fait accompli, is really about how much I care about superficial things and about my level of ahavas Yisroel. I certainly hope I would think and act properly in that, or any, situation.
DY and all:
If you were redt a shidduch for your daughter of a guy similarly cultured as your daughter, born in the same country, born Jewish, FFB (parents or grandparents were converts), fully frum and is either seriously koveia itim or is seriously learning full time (depending whichever your daughter is looking for) and is a black man with an Afro hair (by nature not design) and you’re doing all your shidduch research on him and just as your about to finish your research (everything looks good) your redt another shidduch (by a different shadchan) of another guy [ready to go out] with all the same attributes as above except it’s a white yeshiva guy from a Lithuanian or Hungarian family background instead of the Nigerian background of Bochor One. In a nutshell, other than the ethnicity both are equal and Bochor Two has no other advantages. Do you send your daughter on a date with Bochor One or do you wait to see if Bochor Two is shayach?
Joseph, he who hesitates is lost. While he’s waiting the first guy might find someone else and the second might not pan out.
Avi K: In the above scenario both bachelors already said yes to go out with your daughter and agreed to remain available for her for a reasonable time for you to respond yea or nay. In short, you don’t have to worry about time and losing the dating possibility.
Joseph, what you’re trying to ask is, are we racists.
What answer do you expect?
DY: An honest answer.
No, I’m not a racist.
Thank you. You’re sending your daughter out on a date with the ethnic Nigerian over the ethnic Lithuanian in the above scenario.
Any other takers?
In a nutshell, other than the ethnicity both are equal and Bochor Two has no other advantages. Do you send your daughter on a date with Bochor One or do you wait to see if Bochor Two is shayach?
If the two are so truly equal that the only difference is their race, why should the parents care? Let the daughter go out with whichever one she wants.
(Yeah, I know… that’s a real radical idea)
The Wolf
Wolf: The daughter doesn’t know more than the parents know and she trusts her parents to do all the research, eliminate unsuitable candidates and recommend suitable candidates.
Wolf: The daughter doesn’t know more than the parents
She can’t decide to whom she would have more of a physical attraction to? She can’t make a decision on her own?
If she’s completely incapable of supplying any input into her own marriage process, then I would argue that she’s not ready to get married.
The Wolf
Wolf: She won’t know how either looks until and unless she dates him. (There are no shidduch pictures as many families eschew them as inappropriate.) Many frum families use a traditional shidduch process where the parents do almost all of the legwork and the child will not date anyone not recommended by her parents. In the not distant past, for millenia, often the parents themselves would select a shidduch for their children with the child at most simply giving a yes or no when first meeting the mate. (And yes was the norm having reliance and trust in their parents.) Nowadays the paradigm has shifted but nevertheless in the frummer families the shidduch process is still parent-focused.
In any event, this is a bit off topic as the parameters are what I mentioned above whether you “would argue” the child should be providing more input or not.
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