Should the wishes of racist parents that I not date their child be respected?

From my perspective, you have an obligation to show them respect, but not necessarily respect their wishes. Whether a marriage to this person will work under these circumstances depends on her attitude and how she deals with her parents.

You need to discuss it with her and decide.

Get real DaMoshe the parents are very unlikely to change their views they are thinking well what will the neighbors say?! she needs to show kibbud av v em but if they feel this is the real thing and racism is the only issue then they should go for it, it will be the parents loss.

If the parents are frum, talk to their rabbi. Almost by definition, a frum family is more concerned about the frumkeit of a prospective son-in-law than any other factor. Halacha says you can disregard them (i.e. “elope” most probably), but their rabbi might persuade them to be cooperative.

If her family isn’t frum, ignore them and elope (they will be angrier about her becoming frum than what the grandchildren look like).

Rabbi Akiva’s wife went against her parents wishes and we all know how that turned out. She earned eternal reward for helping to create one of the most dynamic Rabbunim in all of history.

But

As someone who has been married more than once I can tell you that there is tremendous friction when the in-laws don’t like you. Depending on your wife’s personality, it can ultimately cause the end of a marriage. Also , Do you really want to be part of a family that hates you?

I would advise you to not only speak to a trusted Rav, but a really good family therapist and get more than one opinion before proceeding.

Hatzlocho!

golfer – you are right about the increasing queries but, as I may have said elsewhere, nobody is indicating that they are coming here for an answer in place of asking a rav. it is just interesting to hear what other frum people have experienced and what they think.

I know someone who was in that same situation and i would bring two points:

1-those parents were the “hating” type in general so if not this it would have been something else.

2-they did get married and ostracized from their parents (but not siblings) BUT years later the parents realized that they were cutting off their proverbial noses and they made peace.

I think the successes of my children’s marriages is because after all the checking up and background vetting, ultimately we recognized that we should not control the final choice, but rather support our child in seeking his/her soulmate – not someone we idealized at fantasy level, but someone who would create a harmonious and Torah-dik bayis ne’eman according to their natures as individuals. It works! From your vantage point, it looks like you feel you can do this with the girl in question. But how well do you really know this girl? Here is what you may not realize you may be in store for: a young girl who is easily defying her parents right now, because of the Romeo-Juliet effect, but a little further down the road, capitulating to the parents’ control issues. Maybe not only in terms of accepting you , but there could be a lot more control issues going on. The parents as you describe them are not entirely rational or fair, but too image-conscious. Will you be willing to handle interesting scenes coming up in the future where her side of the family has a simcha and drops hints that she should come but you should find something else to do that night? Or if you go visit, please stay in the house – don’t go walking down the street together and make a busha? At the very least, get pre-nuptial couple’s counseling, even a couple of sessions, by someone frum, and then plan to live very far from the in-laws. When bez”H there are grandchildren, things may change, if you can be patient, but without properly preparing and equipping yourself with strategies via the counseling, your poor wife may get really disturbed by being always in the middle between her husband and her parents. Of course you can bypass their approval, but prepare yourselves, to avoid these messy scenarios.

Joseph: Obviously your statement is specious, as sometimes it does mean that! And other times it has to do with the recognition of cultural conflicts. But if you took the time to note what the bachur asked, he said, he is culturally on track with them, keeping mainstream ashkenazik customs, and he is FFb, not a convert. Very mainstream, and if we are to take him at his word, the girl’s parents are in arms because they SAID they do not want non-white grandchildren. Yes, sorry , that is simply biased and irrational.

Joseph: Does that make them anti–[whatever}

Well yes.

Bnei Torah worry about frumekit and midos, not politics, income, ethnicity, physical appearance. In other words, the things that matter according to halacha and Jewish tradition (which from our perspective, are the same).

An Am ha-Aretz might worry about other things, a Ben Torah doesn’t.

Apt, there’s a big difference between feeling that way (we’re all human) and saying it, which is a gross lack of middos.

you guys are soo off! speaking for yourself and your friends, fine. But to say that MOST would react that way? Or that they would feel it but not say it? Wow! Just Wow!

SYAG. Im a realist. People have turned down shidduchim for far less.

DY. I dont know what I would say if the situation came up. I know how I feel now, and assume I would say then, what I feel now.

Are either of these worse than the others?: Rejecting a shidduch because she’s a redhead, because she’s short or because she’s black?

Joseph,

There is one *major* difference at play here which you are ignoring.

If I’m looking for a shidduch, I may choose not to date redheads, short girls, blacks or whatever because I am just not physically attracted to those physical traits. Since we can all agree that physical attraction is an important part of a marriage, it stands to reason that a person should not seek a spouse they are not physically attracted to.

However, in the OP’s case, it’s not the potential spouse making the call, it’s her parents. They have *zero* say in whether or not the girl is physically attracted to the OP. The fact that they want to forbid this regardless of whether there is a physical attraction or not does, indeed, make it worse than the case you’re presenting.

I may not be attracted to redheads (and therefore choose not to date them), but I’m certainly not going to tell my kids “you’d better not date redheads.”

The Wolf (who, really, doesn’t have an opinion on redheads one way or the other — it’s just an example).

Wolf: So it’s perfectly fair to tell the shadchan not to redt any black guys to you, correct?

Wolf: So it’s perfectly fair to tell the shadchan not to redt any black guys to you, correct?

I’m *definitely* not interested in black guys (or guys of any color) for a shidduch. 🙂

But to answer your question – the person who is requesting the shidduch has the right to place parameters on the persons sent to them, especially when it involves physical traits. Thus, yes, I believe they can ask for certain age ranges, heights, weights and, yes, races. If there is no attraction, then there is no reason to consider it.

However, the person will eventually have to answer to The One Above regarding whether they’re excluding people of other races on the basis of physical attraction or racism.

Parents (or anyone else, on the other hand) should have absolutely *zero* say regarding physical characteristics that their children can and should date.

The Wolf

Many people put parameters in with the shadchan. For example: they wont date heavy girls/boys, they wont date someone from overseas, they will only date someone who will support for 5 years, etc…

Honestly, if any of my children would be dating someone of another race and they were both happy, I can say, it would probably be a big pill to swallow, mainly because I’d have to build myself against the gossip and naysayers.

I would never, ever stop a shidduch that was in the process. My parents told me when i was dating, “whoever you marry, we will love”. I felt so good about that, knowing that my parents would support my decision! I daven that I should have the siyata dishmaya to have the same outlook!

I still have a long way to go until my children are in shidduchim, buy I’d like to think of myself as open minded and accepting of all types.

Here’s wishing you much mazel in this scary and confusing world of shidduchim!

Joseph,

If the reason that you don’t like red heads or short people is because you believe that they are inferior, then yes, you will have answer.

And yes, in both cases, the mother is acting wrong.

Even if/though the parents are wrong, both of you should consider if you want to be in a marriage her parents will resent. You might consider holding yourself out publically as a couple and seeing if they come around on it.

I’ve seen people who sadly stop talking to their parents over their choice of spouse. That’s messed up. But I wonder if they would have done it had they known the result.

oyyoy,

i would’ve replied the same thing but i saw your post

So, since you have already consulted with your Rav, how did he advise you to handle this? Is the girl a shomeres mitzvos as well? Are your parents Orthodox and how are they handling this?

Generally, I think we could remove the racism issue if a perspective black chossen was a top learner in Lakewood or came with a huge realestate/stock portfolio.

Certainly you must recognize and respect the age old Jewish tradition where parents are directly involved in the choosing of a spouse for their child as practiced today by some where the parents make almost the entire decision until presenting the candidate to their child for a yea or nea or the more contemporary form where the parent researches the proposal and presents it for a yea or nea for their child to go out on a date. For such traditional and time honored marriage arrangements, is a race based rejection, in your opinion, in the same category as a beauty or height based rejection?

DY. I dont know what I would say if the situation came up. I know how I feel now, and assume I would say then, what I feel now.

I’m very doubtful that you would say to your child, “G-d forbid that you have non-white children”, or the less mild things Shidduchproblem refers to, or that you would talk about gene pools.

Joseph: “For such traditional and time honored marriage arrangements, is a race based rejection, in your opinion, in the same category as a beauty or height based rejection?”

Yes. They are both ridiculous. Why are mothers looking at pictures of girls for her son? Let the son decide who he feels attracted to! And a mother’s racism should have no influence on her son’s marriage.

akuperma – absolutely right!

“I’m very doubtful that you would say to your child,….”

Attitudes run deep. I’m a realist, and I know how I feel. In this theoretical exercise I can very well imagine myself saying exactly what you doubt I would. Lets take black and white out of the equation and substitute other cultural differences, say a Bucharian boy and Chassidishe girl. Would you say parents have no right to be concerned and more importantly express that concern to their child, even in strong language? would you classify it as racist?