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I just saw in the thread about “stigmas in therapy” that the organization Dor Yeshorim (?).
Will not test for certain diseases.
Those they will not test for, are diseases (according to that post) that can be passed on, even by just one parent, being a carrier.
Testing for such diseases would make the carriers, “unmarryable”.
I am asking; Should they test for these diseases anyway since not doing so will condemn many children to suffering from such diseases (not to mention, they will most definately be unmarryable and it will likely be, in some obvious way) which could have been prevented.
Is that fair to those children, especially when it does not solve the problem, but instead just pushes it in a very harsh way, to the next generation?
If someone will say “that is up to G-d” then i could say then we should not test for ANY disease if is up to G-d, such that we should not test for these diseases.
If someone responds “but some we can prevent” I say “we can prevent THESE as well.
Some might say “we have no right to condemn those people for carrying the disease form EVER getting married” and my response would be, But that is EXACTLY what we will be doing to the children they have who will HAVE the disease.
They will be condemned twice once for being an OBVIOUS carrier and again for suffering through having the disease.
So not testing for such things, only exacerbates the problem, and does nothing to help the situation.
So my opinion in conclusion, is that we should most definately test for these diseases.
Am I wrong?
If so, please give a full and extensive detailed explanation (in laymens terms, for someone who speaks almost only English, and is not a Talmud Chocham) of why?
Dor Yeshorim purpose was to prevent diseases like Tay Sachs. They added other similar ones afterwards. Their goal was never to prevent any genetic disease. If you feel you might be a carrier for a certain disease, by all means you can go to your medical professional and have it checked out. If you want- you can have your prospective spouse checked out too, if he/she agrees.
Reb Moshe Feinstein was opposed to Dor Yesharim, he felt that one who broke off a shiduch based on a possibility of passing on a genetic disease was lacking in his faith in Hashem. He reluctantly acquiesced exclusively for Tay Sachs that has a 100% mortality rate and only before the shidduch progressed
hereorthere,
Tay Sachs is a genetic disease. It only manifests in the children if both parents have the gene for it. By Dor Yeshorim testing for it, they are checking to see if both the man and woman carry that gene. If only one carries it, there will not be a problem in the children.
The only people who I would say should be unmarry-able would be the selfish and voilent once. Everyone esle can, in one way or another, overcome their medical / physical challenges.
BS”D
Yes. Anyone with a history of abusive behavior (actual abuse, not being a child of an abusive home although children of such backgrounds need to be investigated carefully) or who has chas vesholom known to have committed molestation needs to be blacklisted. Marriage does NOT cure these problems.
Usually this behavior manifests itself in the teenage years or earlier – if the kid is the class bully or was suspected of something while serving as a camp counselor etc, it should be a major warning sign.
The Posuk “Tomim tihye im Hashem” can imply that it is not our job to make calculations. We ARE required to do what G-d expects of us, and marrying seems to be among those requirements.
HOT- Noone said T.S. isn’t genetic. “Their goal was never to prevent any genetic disease.” Maybe I should said “every”, to prevent confusion.
in today’s day and age technology allows people that carry genetic diseases have children without the disease. If the person is aware they are a carrier they can do in vitro and test the embryos for the disease and only use those that do not carry the disease.
I know someone with Polycystic Kidney Disease. Their grandfather passed away from uremic poisioning, Their mother and uncles had it, some of their cousins has it. It is hereditary. It is where cysts grow on the kidneys till they no longer function. People with this disease will eventually need Diaysis and/or Kidney transplant. Being that is the case,are you are saying this person shouldn’t marry, since there is a 50% chance their offspring will have the disease? BTW this person is married and has not had their children tested.
1]People who are abusive
2] Come from abusive homes AND make no attempt to distance themselves from their family behaviors
3] Child Molesters
All the above are NOT MARRIAGE ELIGIBLE.
Regarding genetic testing: There are extremely sick children born to young, healthy parents where there is NO history of any type of defect. This is the way of Hashem. But, Dor Yeshorim is the best hishtadlus you can do.
A600KiloBear – “anyone with a history of abusive behavior … Marriage does NOT cure these problems.
While Yaakov Avinu agreed with you and hid Dina in a box to protect her from his brother Eisav so that he would not marry her; Hashem, however, punished Yaakov for this action because certain women do have the special kochos to make a rasha do T’shuva.
I think there’s a difference between testing one person or both people. For something like TS where maybe there is a 100% chance of passing it on BECAUSE both parents are carriers then I can understand why we would want to prevent such a shidduch. It doesn’t prevent each party though from marrying other people who don’t have it.
But having one person checked to see if he has something that can possible be passed on to a child would remove him completely from the possibility of getting married. To be mevatel a mitzvos asei completely for a possibility seems wrong to me.
I think they should be tested, and then they can marry other people that are like that.
If both parents have the TS gene, each child has a 25% chance of developing TS disease
Oh I didn’t know that. Still, I could understand why it would be undesirable to make such a shidduch. We’re not preventing these two people from getting married altogether – just to each other.
On a side note, I’ve seen some of your posts Moderator. How do you know so much about such a wide variety of topics?!?!?
While Yaakov Avinu agreed with you and hid Dina in a box to protect her from his brother Eisav so that he would not marry her;
While Eisav may have had any number of bad traits, I have yet to see a source that states that he beat his wives. Do you know of one?
The Wolf
These examples should really be analyzed on a case by case basis.
While Aisov may not have been a known wife-beater, he was a murderer and an aduterer (is that a word?)
By any measure, NOT someone you would want in the family (unless you’re part of The Family :0 )
to Mbachur: so that they can increase the chances?
There are SO many conditions that it isn’t realistic to test for everything. I don’t think this is up to the peanut gallery but the type of daas Torah that DY follows. (Yes, DY was started by a regular person in pain, and this thread might also be referring to people in pain who wonder what can and should be done. Ask daas Torah.)
derech
1. I’m a physician
2. I’m interested, and keep up, in other areas of science (the way Hashem made a world of infinite wisdom, co-operation and kindliness) as well.
3. google
While Aisov may not have been a known wife-beater, he was a murderer and an aduterer (is that a word?)
I’m not necessarily disputing that point. But the point was made that protecting your daughter from a wife-beater is bad because of what happened to Yaakov and Dina. My point was meant to show that Yaakov was not necessarily punished for keeping Dina from a wife-beater since we don’t know that Eisav was one.
The Wolf
how did our grandparents or even parents all get married and have kids without Dor Yeshorim? how come theyre fine?
how did our grandparents or even parents all get married and have kids without Dor Yeshorim? how come theyre fine?
You’re forgetting that a certain percentage of them no doubt DID have kids with Tay Sachs and other such diseases. Such kids probably died very young and are just not remembered today.
The Wolf
How many of them had children born with Tay-Sachs and other genetic diseases?
How many of them had children born with Tay-Sachs and other genetic diseases?
No doubt at least some of those couples DID have children with Tay-Sachs and other genetic diseases.
Being a physician, I don’t think you mean to say that Tay-Sachs and other genetic diseases were unheard of in the Jewish community before Dor Yeshorim.
(Aside from being ridiculous, it’s also a causal paradox.)
The Wolf
ASF,
I don’t understand your point. Are you saying we shouldn’t use Dor Yeshorim? The organization was only started because there WERE people born and dying from completely preventable diseases.
I don’t understand the possible reason one would have for not wanting to use Dor Yeshorim, when their whole purpose is to prevent families from having to go through the pain and suffering of having an unhealthy child, when it could’ve been prevented.
Dor yeshorim should definitely be tested. I personally know a family that lost two children because they didn’t test before they got married.
Many of those children died in young childhood. It is entirely possible that they had these diseases. A carrier can and should get married, just not to another carrier of the same gene.
“how did our grandparents or even parents all get married and have kids without Dor Yeshorim? how come theyre fine?”
They did fine becuz they had bitachon. Thats something we dont have today so we have to ahve Dor Yeshorim since we dont have bitachon anymore that Hashem will give us healthy kids.
Mosherose,
If we are supposed to have bitachon, then why so many shidduch investigations?
Hishtadlus.
“If we are supposed to have bitachon, then why so many shidduch investigations? “
Thats differnt because weve always done it that way. Checking out the other side in a shidduch is part of our mesorah see rashi on achos nachshon.
There are still many people who do not do Dor Yeshorim, which is why diseases such as Tay-Sachs still affect our community.
For those who were wondering why our parents and grandparents didn’t have children with these diseases, like Wolf and oomis said, there’s no doubt that children did die from them – they were simply unheard of. Cancer, MS, Lou Gehrig’s disease, even Down syndrome and other conditions EXISTED before they were “discovered,” but people were not diagnosed or treated for it. People with diseases and conditions that are well-known and often treatable today died from their undiagnosed conditions, were shunned, or simply deemed “meshuga” years ago.
“(Aside from being ridiculous, it’s also a causal paradox.)”
Whats a casual paradox?
Tay-Sachs was first identified in the 19th century as a disease most common in ashkenazic Jews.
mosherose-in previous generations they didn’t have all the sophisticated medication that we have now. It’s not a mesorah so why do you take medicine when your sick?
Dor Yesharim is where hishtadlus comes in. Is it a lack of bitachon to keep ones money in a bank for safety?
And is it a lack of bitachon to install a security system in your home? Is it a lack of bitachon to get a shot? None of those are mesorahs yet they are hishtadlus and therefore you can do it. Same with dor yesharim.
mosherose –
where do you come to these funny conclusions? a generation or 2 ago there was not sophisticated technology like there is today, and children died very quickly and easily from the smallest virus/ flu. Ask your grandparents/anyone from that generation. My grandmother came from a family of 16 and 2 passed away very young. I’m sure there were many cases of tay-sachs and children died r”l yet they didn’t know what it was. I know of a couple that wasn’t checked before they got married because at that time it wasn’t so accepted especially in their circles. (pple were still against dor yeshorim) and unfortunately they had twins with tay-sachs that nebach passed away. A person has to do his hishtadlus and believe it’s all Hashem and that his hishtadlus has no power, that’s the test.
For those who consider testing before marriage is a lack of bitachon, if after marriage you were chas vesholom to have a T.S. child would you sing the same tune???
Whats a casual paradox?
It’s where cause and effect get caught in a never ending circle.
If you believe that genetic diseases didn’t exist in the Jewish community before Dor Yeshorim, then why was DY formed in the first place? This causes a loop where you believe that DY led to disease which led to DY which led to disease which led to DY…
The Wolf
“Thats differnt because weve always done it that way. Checking out the other side in a shidduch is part of our mesorah see rashi on achos nachshon.”
This indicates checing out the girls brother, nothing else. Where did checking out the rest of the family, or the boys side, or the finances or all the other nonesense come from?
The person who made Dor Yeshorim did so to try and help prevent heartache in Klal Yisroel because he suffered having lost a few children to Tay Sachs.
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