Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

Pashuteh Yid

you wrote:

“…are you really giving yourself a pat on the back, and announcing that you have kept every halacha perfectly to a tee your entire life? I would be honored to meet someone of such high caliber. Someone perfect is ideally suited to give tochacha”

this could be applied to another frequent poster and all his “talmudic like” references to other posts to bring his “proofs”

I hate to be the one to be the bearer of bad news to you, but these guys (gedolim and complete tzaddikim in their view) sadly fall short due to bitul Torah. I am posting this as a frequent poster to Yeshiva World (and not (yet) named on the “to be banned” list nor on the list of those naming names of who should be banned), so I am also guilty of bitul Torah, as they are. one can not reach the level of perfection while involved in bitul Torah.

So, these guys can claim that they are the Pincus of today rooting out the evil amongst us, however, 1) Pincus asked a question of the Gadol haDor before acting – and we see the approval and 2) Pincus went to get his spear (the following is from a tape I heard from R’M.M. Weiss) – meaning he was not carrying it with him. in other words, he wasn’t looking for a situation to rise to the level of hero, but when he saw what needed to be done and was very much aware of the Halacha, he first asked, then he got his spear to react.

I do not think that this is what is happening here. Not sure, but I doubt that a Gadol was asked about responding to perceived inappropriate remarks and I am not sure if the reading is not with the intent to respond as opposed to just reading and then having to respond.

Joseph, UJM, Qwerty,

Please look at Sotah 21b. Heichi dami chosid shoteh? Rav Zerika amar Rav Huna zeh hamaikil l’atzmo umachmir l’acheirim. (One who is lenient with himself but strict on others.) Also see Rashi on Rav Yosef bar Chama amar Rav Sheshes zeh hamachria acheirim b’orchosov.

So it is absolutely clear that one who gives tochacha on an area in which he is lax in is a chosid shoteh which today we would call a hypocrite, and it would seem, therefore, that he is patur from the mitzva of tochacha. So the concept of people in glass houses is indeed a yiddishe concept.

For this reason, I exempt myself from tochacha, since I don’t trust myself to be on the level to criticize others.

UJM, could you kindly cite where I advocated going against Shulchan Oruch?

As far as my remarks about the tznius asifah, I apologize and will try to ask mechila from the gedolim involved, since some may have interpreted my remarks to be against them.

In fact, my astonishment was how Lakewood which is the citadel of Torah, could be considered lax in tznius? It would be like saying the NY Yankees should practice hitting from a Tee-Ball to learn how to properly hold a bat. Or like telling Isaac Stern he is not holding his violin right, or like saying the people in Harvard are getting lax in long-division. How is it possible that in Lakewood they are lax? Nobody has thus far given me any explanation on what they are lax in.

As far as the Nun joke is concerned, think of it mathematically. Currently, the people in Lakewood are covering X square inches. The Rabbonim would like them to increase to Y square inches. But how much difference is there between Y and Z square inches where Z is the number that are covered by a Nun. Since the current dress custom is X which is already presumably a very high number, if you go up much further you must automatically end up at Z. There is simply physically not that much room between Y and Z.

Another point, Reb SHmuel doesn’t live in Lakewood, so he must be relying on info told him by others of any purported problem. But didn’t we have disastrous results the last time that happened when certain kannaim gave misleading info to the gedolim about the concert ban. Both Reb Shmuel and Rav Belsky needed to later independently qualify their positions, with Rav Belsky even using the term forgery of his signature, I believe. I simply don’t trust kannaim.

Please, please, can everyone make up and be b’shalom? Pashuteh Yid, jent1150, mdlevine, josephf, Feif Un, illini07. Please????

Again, I ask: I was listed in the first post, and have been accused again since of being “pro freikeit”. Can someone please quote something I posted which indicates this? If not, I demand an apology from all those who spoke lashon hara and motzei shem ra about me.

Be aware that the halacha is that a person has no chiyuv to forgive someone who speaks lashon hara about him until he is asked for forgiveness, and the penalties for lashon hara are very harsh.

Actually, regardless of whether you can show some proof or not, it’s probably still lashon hara, and you should ask mechila.

The Big One: How do you know that nobody knows my screen name here? I happen to have friends who do know my name, and with the posts attacking me, they may have read lashon hara or motzei shem ra about me. So, now, not only do these posters have to ask mechilah from me, they have to ask mechilah from all those who may have recognized my screen name for making them read the lashon hara!

GUYS…is this an appropaite preperation for Elul???

This coffee room thing just started lets not give the YW editor already a reason to shut it…everyone take a chill pill and just calm down.

Pashuteh Yid:

It seems to me that this is not really about tochahcha at all. #1 I doubt these people bashing you really care about you so much to want to help you improve (which I think is a prerequisite for giving tochacha –correct me if I’m wrong on this one guys) #2 If they really sincerely want to fulfill the mitzvah of Hocheach Tochiach, they probably would word themselves very differently.

Rather, I think this is more an issue of kanaus if anything. These people, who are so steeped in Yiras Shomayim and Limud Hatorah and Ahavas Hashem, just can’t bear to read words that display crooked ideas (in their view) against Hashem and His Torah, and therefor they feel a need to protest, lmaan hashem.

It reminds me of a story I once heard in the name of one of the Gedolim. He was asked why when a secular Jew drives his car on Shabbos do people scream “shabbos!” at him. What does it help? Will it stop him from doing it next time?

He replied that when a child falls and hurts himself, he cries. Why? Does it help? No, but “ven es tut vei, veint men!” When it hurts you cry.

That’s real kanaus. I don’t know if this is the real thing or not, but in one of your posts you advocated the Rabbonim making an asifa and banning all kanaus. The “kanaim” you describe (the acid throwers) are indeed a fringe element and what they do goes against the Torah l’chol hadayos. But think about it, will they stop doing these things if an asifa were held about it?? The asifa would simply be a waste of time because these thigs do not apply to normal people.

But then there are some special individuals who are real kanaim, who see a major chillul hashem, and get up there and protest it, sometimes at great risk to themselves. I heard recently in the name of R’ Ephrayim Wachsman that when the b’nos moav were infilterating klal isroel and causing the men to sin, and the whole story of Zimri’s brazen act transpired, no one knew what to do. All the yidden stood around crying, helpless. Only Pinchas got up there and knew what to do. He did the right thing (risking his life in the process) killed Zimri, and thereby stopped the plague.

Hashem later said that if not for Pinchas’s act of kanaus He would have detroyed all of Klal Yisroel.

(Pinchas took his spear -“Romach”- to do this deed [which we would say today was an act of VIOLENCE] , which brought about “Rachem”, [transpose the letters] mercy from Hashem, as this saved Klal Yisroel.)

Today , says R’ wachsman, we have a simlar situation of imorality going on, and we all stand around helpless, not knowing what to do, crying. But here and there we have a kanai like Pinchas who gets up there and knows what to do, and that is what will save us. Ban kanaus? I think not. But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means, being zealous for Hashem and the Torah, not for any personal reasons.

Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.

No hats or jackets required during prayers. Any man going by the title Rabbi must be respected to make converts. Relaxed tznius standards. Hallel on Israel independence day.

Now why didn’t one of you think of that until now?

Big one, if they do that, who will all the kana’im argue with?

The Big one, nobody said you shouldn’t wear a hat and jacket during davening. All they (and I) said was that to say someone without a hat and jacket isn’t a yorei shamayim and doens’t have kavanah is just stupidity. How do you know the level of someone’s kavanah, or yiras shamayim?

The Big One: They’re afraid their rejected ideas would attract only the lowest elements.

Think Big:

As I have quoted the Chazon Ish in Hilchos shechita, and as others have quoted what are probably similar views of his from his other writings, today we must talk gently, as they will interpret harsh speech as violence, (which implies al achas kamah vkamah that violence itself is forbidden. The Chazon Ish says that the halachos of moridin vlo maalin only apply at a time when hasgachas HKBH geluyah l’ein kol. (When hashem’s providence and control of the world are apparent to all. In those times, aveiros were clear cut rebellion.

But the Chazon Ish provides no makor and no hesber on this statement. Let me offer a hesber. The Rambam says that before a navi is believed to be a navi, he must authenticate himself. That means he must be tested and pass. The test is that he must make predictions and mofsim that come true exactly as he said. The Rambam says this can be done multiple times if we are not convinced. We can give him more tests. (He says we should not overdo it, but he doesn’t seem to say a specific number of times.)

After a person has been shown that this navi actually says the word of hashem, he must obey. However, in our generation, we have no nevuah, and therefore if you go over to a frei yid and tell him he must keep shabbos and start screaming at him, his first question will be why should I believe you that you are right. Even if you throw around all the names of all the biggest gedolim who say to keep shabbos, his response will be a) I never heard of them, or b) who said they are right.

And you know what? he has every right to do so. Why should he believe some stranger on the street who is screaming at him? If you are prepared to make a mofes for him or predict the future, then please do so. If you are unable to do so, you have no right to scream or hit. Pinchas only applied in a totally different generation. In today’s generation, the only way to get somebody to keep shabbos is by gentle motivation and teaching by example.

Maybe this is pshat in the Chazon Ish.

to caantor esg..page 7 ..we have mentioned to you on other article to your comment above ..that there is ‘harbe panim l’torah’ and there is a ‘megaleh panim l’torah’, you are from the latter as we have pointed out from your postings all over see there..

Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

Why not?? Why are you so intimidated by people who have questions? Answer them with confidence and dont forget you have the Torah on your side so there is no reason for them to get to you.

Cantoresque apparantly thinks that because he MIGHT be able to say a nice ‘Shma Koleinu’ on Yom KIPPUR, he is worthy of having Maran Harav Hagodol Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY call him on his cell phone to confirm a story he was involved in because he doubts the credibility of the mesenger(a prominet Rebbetzin)

Wolfishmusings turned Chamishay Chumsha Torah into Shishei Chumsha Torah. His latest Addition? THE GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS..

Rabbi of Berlin wants an apology because he thinks I insulted him for BLANTANTLY deeming a story told by someone in the name of Rav Kanievsky a ‘fairy tale’.

I mean; who are the challengers here exactly?

feifun, the comment mentioned examples of modern views i.e. hallel on israel independence, no jackets and hats, etc.

Think Big,

Yahser Koach! Zeit gut gezugt.

Kanaus IS a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. Like everything else, it must be used correctly. And it should be used when necessary.

The modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with. Thats one way when you know you are on target.

Tochacha the same thing applies. It is a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. And the modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with.

Thank you will Hill, and same to you.

Will Hill, so you are diagreeing with the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita who says the only way to bring back the chilonim is with ropes of ahavah?

Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.

The only thing worth being a kanai about today is ahavas yisroel. And lo and behold, if this is done, then there will be more shabbos and more tznius and more learning, and everything else will fall into place.

well, as this is the week of tisha be-av (almost,as according to the sefardim ,there is no shevua shechal bo this year), I shall be very measured and reasonable in my comments.

to nameless, “bemechilas kevod toroshcho” ( i assume you are a male-apologies if this is a mistake- then it would be “toroseich”), I did not ask for an apology from you (on a different posting)because I “blatantly” called a story about a coma for seventy years a fairy tale. BTW, what does Rav Kaniesky have to do wit this ? As far as I reckon, there is no indication that he confirmed this story ,only that this woman’s non-decomposed state was due to the zechus of “no jealousy”, and on this I said, if there are witnesses that this is indeed the case, then indeed it is the case.

I called for an apology because you called me a “koifer”, without reason, without any basis and without understanding what that means in terms of motzi shem ra.

If you think that it is common practice to go around calling people “kofrim” without any reason, then,sadly, you are part of the biryonim of yore and the ultras of today who want to silence any debate by calling names.That is not how our Sages throughout the centuries have acted. See the letters of the “Imrei Emess” , the Gerrer Rebbe zz’l, gave Rav Kook zz’l all the kovod he deserved. I think it is advisable to refraim from callong anyone names and sticking to the debate at hand.

everybody seems to forget the first thing that Pincus did prior to getting his spear and killing Zimri. First he checked with Da’as Torah. Rashi said thar Pincus went to Moshe and reminded him of he halacha and Moshe told him that being that the halacha was learned (remembered) through Pincus, Pincus should be the one to carry it out.

The point is that Pincus KNEW the halacha yet he did not act on his own without first checking with Da’as Torah. That is a valuable lesson in zealotry – even if you KNOW that you are right, stop and confirm first. By Pincus, time was of the essence and he still stopped and asked.

Will Hill, it was not I who said times have changed, it was the Chazon Ish. As I explained at length earlier, he says that since we have no open hasgacha pratis, we can only use ahavah as a tool of kiruv for chilonim, not anger and violence. Please reread my earlier posts where I gave a hesber, and look up the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita.

will hill… I am not equating my posts with Pincus as others here are. I am not attacking all the so called “pro-freikeit” or all the self-proclaimed standard bearers of Torah values. I argue with those that I feel are mistaken and and lend support to those that I feel are correct. I think that I am probably one of the few people that have not been labeled as on either side.

So mdlevine, you are neither pro-freikeit nor pro-frumkeit? A middle of the roader you say?

You know what happens to those in “middle of the road”? They get hit from both sides!

When kanuas is required, many Tzadikim bzman hazeh have engaged in kanuas. And kanuas is a mitzvah not only tzadikim must engage in when called for bzman hazeh.