Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

to “i can only try”…what can i tell you me thinks your a basket case(RE:googeling me ) also you say “more modern..”how should we know who is more modern.there is no pictures posted we are debating what is posted and if we feel its against halacha we state so with reyous from shulchemn urech, gemmorah etc..,we might be wrong, so say so with REYOUS,not OPINIONS.. see our post on this subject (of “opinions” on other posts cant always repeat!!!!(got scared?) ) so we cant run like a little child to my rov for every little thing that is elementary..which seems not to be the case by you..

to mr pashute yid,page 3,,, you mke it too complicated, give people a break, all it take is to mezalze or to avekmachen a din in shulchen urech…which is very easy…and we dont mean to gebrogts,carry or not carry in eurev which has respected rabbonim on both sides…(and that poster is es medame to dovor haoser l’chol hadaeious..we are talking of rabbonim, not rah-bonim

Can I be part of the “Club”. I have a BA in the hard sciences from a secular university, my father is a professor of biology and an Ivy League school and we talk 3-4 times a week. Oh and I am very much a Zionist.

Shabbat Shalom, all. I have to get back to work

I just saw this thread, and need to comment. I am pro-freikeit? That’s only because you define someone who isn’t in kollel as being frei.

But seriously. Why am I considered frei? Because I defend other Jews when the kanaim here attack those who don’t live the same way as them? Because when many people attacked a YU Rosh Yeshiva, I stood up for him? (Which, by the way, my Rosh Yeshiva encouraged me to do. And no, I didn’t learn in YU.)

Believe me, I am not pro-Frei. I just don’t dislike people based on how they live. If a person wants to be frei, I will try to encourage them to be frum. If they refuse, I can’t help them. But I certainly won’t look down on them for it. Pity them? Yes. But not speak loshon hara about them, and not treat them as lower class. All Jews must be treated with respect, whether they are frum or not.

I am not sure whether my earlier posting went through as I pushed a wrong button so allow me to comment on this matter now, albeit a bit late.

Edc’s qestion is so preposterous that I don’t know why anyone would even take him seriously. Yet,the real danger is in the idea that anyone who does not think like him is FREI ! And, obviously, this would disqaulify such people from even gving an opnion because it is not “daas torah”. Well, it is not edc’s daas torah but it surely is torah.

There are “shivim ponim latorah” and Rav Kook’s opinions have the same validity as Rav Sonnenfeld’s. The Rav’s (Rav Joshe Ber) writings have as much truth in them as Rav Shach’s and (here I will get into hot water) Rav Adin Steinsaltz translations and persuhim are as authorative as Artscroll’s.

To claim, as edc does, that anyone offering different opinions is “frei” or that these opinions are “frei’ is an insult to hundreds and thousands of shmorei torah and banishes two thirds of of our yidden into a ghetto. It has been tired before, like the Gro trying to ban chassidus, and it has failed. So will this irresponsible try to cast out shomrei torah umitzvos.

It’s 100% true!!! Go to Israel, where some extremists will attack women who aren’t dressed the way they want them to be. They will pour bleach on them! You go crazy about how the Muslims are animals when they attack their women – these people are doing the same thing!

The fact is, Jews are capable of doing terrible things just like anyone else. Saying so is not pro-frei – it’s reality.

to charlie brown page 4..so who said im not a basket case(, but any way tha only link we have is YWN and whaen we have to remind someone what he said we go to that date and link it (in the search box .top left…)

lgbg,

Not to bust anyones bubble, but what relevance is popularity? Bin Laden is quite popular amongst some groups.

Now, Lgbg, I am only popular because I made all the cholent for your Sheva Brachos. Please post a video here of everybody eating it.

illi.

happy i made you beam:) and i think a shabbton would be great…. so nu go and arrange it!

willi

sorry you werent on the main list… but i guess your included

pashute yid.

seriously we still have one day open for a sheva brachos.!

I’ve held off posting on this thread for a while, but I’d like to add my two cents, considerng that I am one of those lsited in the first post on the permisability of reading my posts or of me posintg in this site. I’ll ask my own question, what is a permissable question to be asked in a beis midrash? Is there any field of inquiry which is taboo to Torah learning?

Judaism is G-d’s gift and guide to the world because the anwer to that question is a resounding “NO!!!” There is nothing that cannot be raised in the context of honest Torah inquiry. There is no field of intelelctual endeavor to be avoided in the Beth Midrash. I forget the pariculars of the story, but I recall that when the students of a certain Amora were caught spying on the most intimate of their rebbe’s acts, they unashamedly retorted “torah hi ul’lelilmod ani tzarich.” And the dsicussion ended there. The lesson? G-d loves honest inquiry. Nothing is so sacred that it is exempt from dissection and analysis. Either the injunction of “Haphoch bo v’haphoch bo d’kula bo” is a mantra for life, or Judaism is nothing.

Permit me another question. What is the function of this site? Is it merely to reinforce the pre-approved assumptions people bring with them, or is it to serve a higher purpose? Are people ehre interested in learning something new, or in just rehashing the stale and well known? “Harbei lamad’ti. . .U’mtalmidai yoter m’kulam.” How can it be that a sage learns the most from his students? The answer is because the students are innocent, naive perhaps. They do not make the same assumptions about the “Torah way” or about world their teacher does. They therefore offer a fresh, perhaps unexamiend perspective on the subject matter at hand. I prouldy stand before all of you as your “student.” At the same time I humbly thank and beseech you for the opportunity to remain mine.

Amidst all the comments on this matter, funny and otherwise, the most distressing one are what “ujm” ,and people of his thinking, wrote. To call hundreds of thousands of Yidden “Sonei Yisroel” and “anti-semites” is not only a deep insult and first class rechilus but illuminates the reason why so many Orthodox Jews are disgusted and fed up with the ultra-chareidi view of Yiddishkeit, namely that there is no other Yiddishkeit in the world save the ultra- narrow, insular, elitist Lithuanian yeshivish world. This is not the view of the Chassidim or Chabad or the baal teshuva movement. It is the view of a very small, arrogant band of Jews and has infected us all and has direct consequences in all matters of halacha. (see the fight about giyur).

I havwe never seen any of the “other” Yidden call the yeshivish world “anti-semite” or “sonei Yisroel”, because we all feel that every Jew is a good jew. If you learned Perek yesterday, you will have learned the first mishna in “Chelek” and know what our chachomim thought about every Yid.

UJM:

anti-semites? You’re REALLY going to go there? If anyone is a sonei Yisroel right now, it is you, my friend.

josephf:

I think you are wrong regarding what’s “fair game” in the Beth Midrash. Look for example to the sugya of zaken mamre. One does not become a zaken mamre for espousing a divergent point of view. Indeed even after the consensus is established contra to that divergent point of view, one is not obligated to revise his thinking on the subejct. One is a zaken mamre only and only if he paskens l’maaseh against the consensus. I also point out that in the famous (and often misunderstood) sugya of “Tanur Achinai” HKB”H proclaims: “Nitzchuni banai. . .” But there is no record that R. ELiezer ever conceded the point.

Pashute Yid,

I highly doubt that artscroll story. They are smart enough not to copy from another source without attribution and permission. That would make them look foolish and possible open themselves up to a copyright infringement lawsuit.

I haven’t looked inside an artscroll gemara to see if they do attribute to steinsalz because I don’t own an artscroll gemara, but I highly doubt they would have legitimized him by doing that.

By the way do you own a large fleet of cars? I’ve been seeing a lot of bumper stickers lately with the phrase “I’m a pashuter yid” 😉

b`emes the only people to have a voice are people who never went on the internet in their life

joseph: No, I don’t think Rabbonim are crooks. I don’t think you should take the Torah with a grain of salt, and when it comes to Shabbos, of course you should try and keep every aspect of it.

There’s a difference between saying the Torah didn’t mean something specific, especially when you have a Rav to quote on it, and saying you don’t have to follow the Torah. One questions the interpretation, the other questions the validity. See the difference?

Regarding Shabbos, I made my position clear: of course everyone should try and keep Shabbos. However, you can’t force someone else to keep it, or any other halachah. People have to choose to keep it, not have it forced on them.

As for insulting Rabbonim, I’m sorry, but I’ve seen many supposedly frum people insult many Rabbonim. Look at the Rabbi Tendler comments for that. I don’t think I’ve ever insulted Rabbonim anywhere on this site. if I did, please point it out to me.

Charlie Brown, I don’t give that mayseh too much credence, either, but just repeating what I heard a long time ago.

As far as fleet of cars, as you can see, I have a large fan club (despite the fact that the kannaim want to throw me off YW). Just kidding.

JosephF, Believe it or not, life is full of compromises, and in fact nobody can possibly be midakdek on every nuance, which is why it is all a questions of priorities and emphasis. Let me give you an example. If you have children, and you will make them Bar-Mitzvahs, IY”H you will want to buy a pair of tefillin. But if you want to get absolutely the best around, you will find that it probably costs about 5,000 a pair (and may have to order 2 years in advance). So maybe you should spend it on the tefillin. But you may then find yourself short of money to pay his tuition. So if it is a choice of a $1500 pair, and sending him to yeshiva, or a $5000 pair and no yeshiva, you will probably go for the 1500 pair. However, you will be giving up some of the “nooks and crannies to a tee” of hilchos tefilin.

The gemara itself states that their are 3 aveiros that a person violates every day. However, if he did not interact with people at all, and stayed in a locked room, he could probably avoid the hirhurei aveirah and avak loshon hora. However, that would be at the expense of getting out to go to shul and to make a parnasah, etc., and to have a family.

Similarly, giving tzedakah is a huge mitzvah, but so is buying food for Shabbos. How do you do both if money is short, and you also have a tuition bill due, etc. What if there is an old lady who needs help, but you are on the way to tefilah btzibbur, you can only do one mitzvah now. Which do you do?.

So life is full of choices, and it is impossible to keep every mitzva fully. You may be living in a fantasy world, thinking it is possible, and probably some of the younger yeshiva bochurim who are the kannaim here (I believe) think the same thing, because they are still young and idealistic and inexperienced. But lmaysah, it is impossible.

Given these facts, one must make some choices. I personally have chosen ahavas yisroel of all types, loshon hora, and anivus to be my big 3. A big Rov once said that the biggest conflicts in life are between two good things. So if I get into a situation where another mitzva, as great as it might be, (say tochacha) might want me to hurt the feelings of another yid, I will pass, since it goes against my big 3. The only people I give tochacha to are my own kids, since they know I love them. A stranger on the street will likely think I have an ego problem and not listen, and be turned off.

I personally weigh the bein adam lchaveiro mitzvos more than the bein odom lamakom mitzvos, and feel that I have many many solid sources to do so, such as the gemara that says yimacheh Shmo al hamayim kdei laasos shalom bein ish l’ishto. Vahavta lreacha komocha say klal godol batorah. Mai dsanei oloch lchavreich lo saavid, zeh lol hatorah kula. Also look at last Rashi in Parshas Yisro which says that the kovod due to a human is greater than the kovod due to the Beis Hamikdash. I believe that the RBSH deeply wants us to honor our fellow man, and that it gives him great nachas ruach.

These are the choices I have made. You are entitled to make yours. But if you really believe that you will be able to do every mitzvah perfectly, I don’t think you are being honest. Choose wisely, and be consistent.

Let me conclude with a vort. Mi haish hachofetz chaim ohev yomim liros tov. Netzor leshoncha mera… What does it mean liros tov, to see good things? I think pshat is to see the good in others. If you want a long life to see all the gevaldige things that others do, then the way to see this good is to refrain from loshon hora. If you get into the habit of never even thinking bad about any yid, it is very easy never to say bad about any yid. And this will cause you to see the Tov in every yid, and you will be amazed at what they have accomplished.

to joseph,

Of all the people cited eligible for banning, I don’t recall anyone saying

“the Torah is a nice Sefer, but must be taken with a grain of salt”, or “we must be flexible in Shabbos [or whatever Taryag of your preference] and not insist on keeping every nook and cranny to the tee” ? Where there is room for discussion is what that “tee” is ( i.e. shitel only or with a hat, eruv or no eruv, chalav stam or CY )

But what I have noticed , as Feif Un did, that there is no shortage of posters insulting non-chareidi Rabbonim that they don’t agree with. Should they be banned too?

Pashuteh Yid –

Your examples are “compromises” of hiddurs, that if you can’t do (i.e. afford the nicest Esrog) you have no such obligation. THERE IS NO COMPROMISING OF HALACHA.

cantoresq –

Your comment is so far beyond the pale of Torah Judaism, it is hardly worthy of a response. Nevertheless anyone that claims, as you did, that you can EVER “take the Torah with a grain of salt” is, I’m sorry to have to tell you, a Koifer gomer. The Torah is 100% EMES. EVERY LETTER IN THE TORAH IS 100% TRUTH.

josephf

What of the sugya of “yesh koach b’yad chachamim LA’AKOR din min hatorah. . .” The issue discussed there was not CAN Chazal abrogate laws from the torah, but rather under what circumstances. So while I’m sure that it’s very comforting to repeat frum platitudes about each and every word in the Torah being “100% truth” (which incidentally I never denied), it really is beside the point.

Josephf:

appropos to my post about “yesh koach” What is your understanding of Chazal’s statements about negah habayit, ben sorer umoreh, ir hanidachat, (about each they say “lo haya v’lo yihyeh”)? Regarding the death penalty can you not see the possibility that Chazal, being opposed to it, legislated it away? Don’t forget R. Akiva’s famous statement that were he on the Sanhedrin, he would have insured that no one would ever be executed for any crime. Was R. Akiva a “Koifer gomer?” since he seemingly put his love for humanity before the Torah’s injunction to invoke the death penalty where It mandates capital punishment?

Josephf, are you really giving yourself a pat on the back, and announcing that you have kept every halacha perfectly to a tee your entire life? I would be honored to meet someone of such high caliber. Someone perfect is ideally suited to give tochacha.

One additional reason why I never do, is I am always thinking that I have so many chesronos, that who in the world am I to tell somebody else how to act and keep mitzvos. What kind of a hypocrite would I be to tell someone he is doing something wrong when I have so many things I need to work on.

I never realized there were perfect individuals in the world, and lo and behold, right here on YW. I am sorry I am actually giving you tochacha, but the one exception is when I see someone hurting somebody else. Your constant put-downs of other people are unacceptable. Same with the other kanaim here. Any unbiased person reading this blog will automatically come to the conclusion that the kannaim are the ones who always start with the personal insults. You see, the acid throwing doesn’t just come from the fringes, as some have claimed. First the kannaim throw acid with their words. Then they use their fists on buses. Then the next madreiga is to throw real acid. But it is really all the same thing. It is just a matter of degree. When one’s midos are out of control, there is no telling what he is capable of doing.

Did you know that the kannaim once pushed Reb Aryeh Levin into the mud?

Did you know that in Beit Shemesh, Shmuel Katz in the FIve TOwns Jewish Times reports that on erev shabbos the kannaim throw debris and rocks into the roads so vehicles can’t get through? What if an ambulance needs to get by?

And they actually think that the RBSH is proud of them.

Pushut, Who are YOU to go against SHULCHAN ORACH and call anyone in your way kanaim? What azus! What chutzpa! What rishus!

(Yes, if you want to know where you went against shulchan orach reread your words in this section. Any reasonable ben torah can see it.)