Should Parents Intimidate Their Kids?

The only time it ever makes sense to hit a kid is where you can’t lead by example. From a child’s perspective, he is doing nothing wrong by running into the street, turning on the stove or picking up a knife. You do all those things too. That is why an exception is made where you can hit the child to keep him safe. If the child learns from the example of hitting, that is an undesired side effect, but when he is old enough to understand the safety concern, he won’t think it means that it’s always okay to hit people, but he will know that it is generally okay to hit people in order to keep them safe from greater dangers.

im duly chastened r”y23
sorry

If you are serious, here’s an explanation:
The Gemara in makos is discussing involuntary manslaughter cases, where a death is caused completely without malice, intent, or recklessness. The Mishna there is ONLY discussing the difference between criminal negligence, in which case the person is liable to exile, and accidental death, in which case person is exempt from criminal liability. In the scenario with the father, the act of hitting is not intended in any way to cause severe physical injury, nor is done with disregard for the child’s safety, and ONLY done for valid chinuch purposes (which would be evaluated in court). An example might be nudging a child into a pool of water to teach him to swim (a mitzva of chinuch), but then the child trips and hits his head on a stone and dies. With another person, the father would be forced into exile. With his son, if he can prove that he pushed him for the mitzva of chinuch, and that the force was not excessive or dangerous to the child, it will be a valid defense against liability. It’s a pity prize, though — the father lives on knowing he killed his son.

The defense is clearly rebuttable. If the father cannot prove he was engaged in a reasonable means of education, that could reasonably be expected to achieve the goals of education, then the next Mishna states that obviously the father is liable. If the father intended to cause serious injury, or acted with reckless forcefulness, he would be liable for murder. There is no absolute defense.

Thus, Rava’s classifying hitting a child for chinuch as a mitzva is ONLY brought as a rebuttable defense for a well-meaning but slightly negligent father. In this context, there’s no reason to interpret this as a mandatory approach to chinuch in general, but rather just adequate to be considered a “mitzva”, and thus a defense to manslaughter. But the father still acted negligently, otherwise he wouldn’t need the defense at all (it would be accidental death).

(This is the only way to understand Rava’s statement: Abba Shaul in the mishna had stated that performance of a mitzva is a defense to involuntary manslaughter. He says chopping wood is not ever a mitzva, and therefore if the ax head falls off and kills a bystander, the chopper is always liable to exile. Rava explains this, saying that even if the wood would be used for a mitzva, chopping itself is only a hechsher mitzva. This is because if you already have wood chopped, chopping more is not a mitzva; so if you don’t have, chopping wood is still not a mitzva. Ravina challenges Rava’s logic, saying that if applied to chinuch, if a son could learn without being hit, then hitting is never a mitzva. Rava finally brings the passuk to show that hitting could always be considered a mitzva IF the parent can show if was for the sake of education, even if there’s another way to educate. Again, in context, this is hardly an exhortation of parents to hit their children.)

Many other gemaras are consistent with this view that harsh chinuch measures are not permissible. The definition of “harsh” and “chinuch measures” will naturally adapt to what is normal in a particular society at a given time. That’s because the “foreseeability” of the harm will change depending on what a child’s normal reaction might be, which is heavily cultural.

In most countries today, children have certain rights under international, federal and state law that they have never had before. Any stranger can call child protective services on a rough parent or teacher, and every child knows this. This naturally influences what is perceived as “harsh” or acceptable.

Furthermore, developments in the fields of education and psychology have also changed our perception of chinuch and harshness. It’s not made-up sensitivities — it’s scientific knowledge that we did not have access to generations ago, much like the polio vaccine. Chochma bagoyim taamin. There’s no contradiction with Torah here.

Most radically changed is the structure of the family, going from closed and conformist, to individualistic and autonomous. A child has access to ideas, resources, and networks that were unfathomable to adults even a few years ago. If he doesn’t feel safe or understood at home, he has many, many options open to him. Therefore harsh chinuch no longer works in most cases. Even the Gemara and rishonim cautioned against pushing a child too far in the name of chinuch — today the boundary of “too far” is just much, much closer. One of many examples:

יורה דעה קמ:כ
אסור לאדם להכביד עולו על בניו
ולדקדק בכבודו עמהם שלא יביאם לידי מכשול אלא ימחול ויעלים עיניו מהם שהאב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול.

Consequently, in 2019, if you take a physical approach with the son in the hypothetical case, minyan attendance will be the least of your problems when he’s 14. What’s more likely is that he’ll continue to defy his parents, only he’ll hide it better and the material will become increasingly scandalous — and he’ll have access to internet. You’ll be “teaching” this already tight-lipped child to become savvy at hiding many worse things from his parents.

And the passuk in mishlay that the gemorah brought is pretty pro hitting not just in a few scattered out instances

there are plenty of others to pick up the mantle

While you prepare your rebuttal, let me add: As you must know, I agree wholeheartedly with Syag that this is not about Halacha. Halacha is broad and dynamic and full of contradiction — and you can always find a source to back you up.

This is also not about hitting. Majority of posters have agreed that wonderful parents sometimes hit their children. It’s a case by case analysis.

Please open your heart to hear this: it’s disturbing how you are making this a crusade to find sources to allow you, not to hit children, but to hit HARD, to BEAT, to SMACK — in your own words.

Crusade is not an exaggeration. I appreciate that you are quoting sources, but some are so out of context as to be reckless 🙂 Even if you can quote a source that permits you to beat your child, we can show (and have shown) you a hundred talmidei chachamim that promote gentle, moderate, even lenient parenting — not because they’re sentimental liberals. Because they’re rachmanim bnei rachmanim.

So your motive seems to be something other than truth seeking. It feels very strongly that you have an agenda. I know you think this is a smoke screen, but it’s not. It’s not conjecture either.

In terms of the Jewish ideal, the compulsory vort on teztaveh came to mind over shabbos, about Moshe rabbeinu intervening in HaShem’s “discipline” of klal yisroel after the egel. The absence of Moshe’s name in this parsha is a testament to that fierce, protective compassion. He was chosen as father of the people for this very trait, as remarkably shown by his gentle care of even animals. Champion of the defenseless.

We don’t know if you do or do not hit your children, but like I said, that’s irrelevant. Lots of wonderful, loving parents hit their kids sometimes. I am certain beyond a reasonable doubt, however, that you (like many people) did not have “Moshe rabbeinu” parents in your life, because the ideals that you vehemently espouse, and the manner in which you do so, would simply not occur to someone who did — but in fact would make them shudder. There is almost no exception to this rule, psychologically speaking.

On the contrary, your words echo those of parents who were themselves emotionally distant, far too-easily threatened by child’s lack of compliance, and who at times demanded it harshly, or shamed child into obedience in the name of higher morals. This was not atypical in past generations. That’s not to say they couldn’t also be loving and well-meaning. Unfortunately, there’s a host of psychosocial and spiritual presumptions that flow from being raised this way — one being that you continue to justify and promote them, as you do. Children of gentle, respectful parents simply do not think or speak this way. Let me say that again: Children of gentle, respectful parents simply do not think or speak this way. These attitudes and the invisible wounds they inflict are passed down from generation to generation until someone is willing to call them out as toxic, and change. Hopefully you are that person, that “Moshe Rabbeinu” father to your precious children.

Fine.

I’m glad for you to have made your point (and that I render you speechless 🙂

While I’m already being condescending and personal with you, can I say one more thing?

Two more things then! First, ALL of my comments were on the matter at hand, and were reasoned and logical; it’s just not a logic you are familiar with… yet.

Okay but here’s some more meaningless conjecture: Over shabbos, I thought about your hypothetical son, who you describe as quiet and thoughtful, and it warmed my heart.

I suddenly wished for you what I wish for myself with my kids: to see him the way you yearned to be seen by your parents when you were nine. Only sweetness and goodness. I wished for you to put aside all your anxiety about sticker charts and bedtimes and point-proving, and just hold him so tight that he knows he is good through and through. I mean, really hold him. I davened that all parents be awed and humbled by the privilege of raising a human being; so many people don’t have that honor, or lose it too soon. That your vision for him in adulthood be not limited to showing up to minyan and keeping the rules, but rather for him to actualize his full potential with joy. Obviously in line with HaShem’s will for him — our greatest potential is always HaShem’s will for us. That you remember often to be curious about him, to really listen, to be surprised. You are merely his custodian after all, and can’t possibly grasp the mystery of his life. We can barely grasp our own. That you put aside all the quotes and sources, and allow that wise inner parent (who has infinite spiritual resources and creativity) to guide you in being that very best father for him. And I really prayed for all of us that through parenting our children, real and hypothetical, we also become whole in whatever way we are not yet.

What a beautiful post! Ignore my last one and add my name to that one! 😁

*obviously supposed to say ”I say ”

klugeryid,

“That I was unclear, is obviously possible though hard to accept as I spelled it out many times.”

No, you were quite clear. You just want to move the goalposts and pretend that the conversation is about something different than it was. I have not once in this thread disputed that halacha permits hitting in certain circumstances. You set up a scenario and asked if hitting were appropriate in that scenario, to which I and multiple other posters said no. You dug further into that specific scenario, so I did too. So the conversation became about why you continued to think that hitting would be appropriate in that scenario, rather than the halachic discussion you now claim you wanted.

I’ve found that the best parenting strategy is ignoring bad behavior. It works so well. Especially for younger children.

If they are whining or throwing a tantrum, just completely ignore them until they stop and ask nicely. Like if they are whining they want a cookie or to play with some toy, whatever it is. I dont respond to whining. I don’t even say anything. Just ignore until the tantrum stops. I don’t scold them or yell at them—it doesnt work.

If they bite or hit or pull hair or hurt me or my husband, we just walk away. Don’t even say anything. Don’t say “ouch!” Just silence. Walk away from them. Within days, they stop the behavior.

Children actually crave negative attention just like positive attention. So if you give them negative attention by yelling at them, or hitting them, they will keep doing the bad behavior.

klugeryid:

Great question. I think the answer is that not every behavior or misbehavior must have consequences. To worship punishment as the most valuable ingredient in chinuch is a colossal error. This use of consequences doesn’t teach. At the very best, it controls. And there is a limit to how much control one will exert on a child before there is repercussions.

The primary aspect of chinuch is exactly what it translates as. Training. Teaching. One needs to educate in ways that do more than just download information. One must make the proper derech of behavior something that the child learns to be a positive thing, that they should want to aspire to that. I sincerely believe that one of the greatest problems in today’s yeshivos and schools is the use of discipline as the primary tool. It has its role, but very, very secondary to the teaching. No one ever succeeded in imparting moral values via reward or punishment. And as long as we observe our mechanchim and menahalim exercising their authority and power, we will achieve nothing.

It is not about whether one may potch a child or talmid. It is about revisiting the goals of chinuch and how to achieve them. And, I know it is repeating, the tachlis of producing a child or talmid that has been imbued with love for Torah and mitzvos is not accomplished with punishment. Intimidation gives the wrong message, and fails to bring about positive growth.

Just came across this this shabbos.
In the sefer מנחת תודה from ר חיים קניבבסקי,
On page 114 he quotes himself from his sefer טעמא דקרא
On the passuk ולא עצבו אביו מימיו לאמר מדוע ככה עשית
So he asks how can it be that דוד המלך would allow his son to do something wrong and not admonish him?
He answers that אדניהו never did anything wrong!!!!
The issue is that דוד המלך should have found an excuse to smack his son once in a while as the פסוק says יסר בנך ויניחך !!

Yes he says straight out that there was a טענה on דוד המלך for not figuring out a reason to be able to “HIT! ” his son. And the passuk where that concept comes from is יסר בנך.
Not like some posters want to claim that the passuk is not referring to physical מוסר
Please look up the passage before telling me I’m wrong. It’s short and seemingly unambiguous.

Again this is not a blanket clarion call to beat ones children.
Rather it shows that corporal punishment WAS an integral and necessary component of torah true Chinuch

klugeryid:

Two responses to your recent comments.

1) I do not question the use of reward and punishment. However, it is beneficial within certain limits. There are age appropriate rewards. Think if you davened mincha today, and you were rewarded with a piece of candy. That would be rather absurd. It would not accomplish anything. perhaps, it might be accepted and an insult. This is not determined by any hard and fast rules, and one needs to have and exercise good judgment.

2) The quote from Rav Chaim shlit”a is identical to a statement by Rav Dessler, published in the Michtav Me’Eliyahu. I do not have it handy to give you the exact citation. My point is that discipline has its role, and the absence of it is exactly what Rav Chaim and Rav Dessler were suggesting. I do not disagree. Yet, if a child was behaving properly, and the father concocted something to smack him, there can be risk of driving the child away. Doing so without knowing your kid would be irresponsible. Your point fails to provide the basics of justification for the common practice within yeshivos to discipline as the main approach to chinuch. Clearly, חשוך שבטו never suggested to beat the daylights out the kid. Rather, it is note that the complete absence of discipline is counterproductive. There is a balance.

Back to the OP. It is not about intimidating, nor about instilling fear. Children (and adults) should have מורא רבך כמורא שמים. But that is not the fear of the potch. It is the awe. If we think that we can build positive awe on the negative of fear, we have a misguided confusion of the issues. The potch that teaches is the one that is limited, calculated, and within the context of a relationship between the rebbe/parent and the child in which the potch is educational, not punishing.

Mseren
That’s a lot of hate there.
You might want to see someone to help you deal with it.
I can’t say I follow Joseph but my goodness what has he written to deserve the hate???
Calling him vermin?
For what?
Cause he wants women to stay in the home?

So then why?
Why all the hate on Josef???