- This topic has 75 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Hi I am currently a yeshiva bochur who is being supported by his parents. I feel guilt inside of me to be still taking money from my parents at this age. I am also taking college classes, but the majority of my chevra is not and they plan on learning after they get married. I do not understand how they could do it. My parents are very wealthy, yet I don’t want to take their money, especially once I’m married. How will I learn responsibility?? But it’s also been ingrained in me that one must learn after he’s married in kollel. I just don’t agree with this concept, because it’s a little embarrassing being 25 with 2 kids and a wife, and still take money from your parents. Any advice on how to take responsibility and work when I’m married is much appreciated…
The title is wrong. The yeshiva is the real world. Outside the yeshiva is the oilem hasheker.
If they are happy with you, and you and your wife are happy and interested in learning why not? its a zechus that your able to sit and learn not worrying about the next paycheck. dont abuse it obviously!!
The thread title should be reversed, Yeshiva is the real world!!!!!!
gabboim – you beat me to it!
I’m not here to be mechanech you, but you are wrong. A) The world exists ONLY thru torah, and that is what a mans goal in life is. B) What is this that you are saying that your goal is to work. Where is this brought down in halacha? What makes you say so? There is absolutley nothing wrong to take monsey from your parents. Its the best yissacher zevulan deal out there!
It is certainly noble to want to be independent and if you paid attention to the reading of your ketubah you know that you, and not in-laws, are obligated to support your family.
Are you talking about college, or work? If the former, YU and Touro offer yeshiva-like environments, with great rabbis and college courses in the afternoon. Not everyone there is a left-winger like me! There may not be a need to give up intensive Torah learning.
I would talk to your rabbis, and if you are serious about college to visit the campuses and talk to the rabbis and students at YU and Touro. See what is right FOR YOU. If you really have a yetzer hara to go off the derech at the first week of a college philosophy or literature class, you probably should NOT attend college. But at age 25 you should have the maturity to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff and understand that Ayn Rand and Henry Miller are inconsistent with Torah. Develop your own hashkafah and do not let others discredit it — even rabbis; many gedolim attended university and they offer a sound derech.
I wish you the best.
“..If they are happy with you, and you and your wife are happy and interested in learning why not?..”
The young man seems not to be happy with himself.
Ever watch a baby grow?
They work very hard to turn over, crawl, then stand and walk. Soon they learn to ride a tricycle, then a two wheeler. They are constantly striving for independence. No wonder a young man would feel uncomfortable being supported by his parents. The pull of being an independent adult is very strong.
Isn’t man’s purpose in this world to work and support his family?
No; it is an obligation according to the ?????, but it’s not man’s purpose. Man’s purpose is to follow the ???? ?????, and ultimately, ?????? ?? ?’ ??????? ???? ??????. There’s no better way to achieve that than to sit and learn, and if the bills are getting paid (even by your parents) you have not violated the terms of your ?????.
The Vilna Gaon would learn all day every day at home. I believe it was the Dubner Maggid that came to him one day and the VIlna Goan asked him to tell him tochacha. The Dubner Maggid told him that there’s no kuntz to staying locked up inside the house and learning Torah where his Yetzer HaRah doesn’t stand a chance. The Vilna Gaon answered back “I’m not a kuntzmacher”.
(sorry I don’t know a good english word for kuntz)
Gabboim; thanks 4 saving me the exercise. I’ve done enough typing today. Though I see many of you have taken the bait.
I was only gonna respond to make a Macho’oh!!!
Kentucky Fried Bupkes;
save the bulk of your guilt for your view of the people who sit in Beis Medrash Learning Torah allowing the
continuity of this Real world you refer to. Get Real!
kfb-
This is probably something you should discuss with your rosh yeshiva and/or rabeim.
That said, here are a few questions:
-Are you truly learning well?
-Are your parents happy to support your time in yeshiva?
-If you stayed in yeshiva with the goal of eventually going into chinuch as a rebbe, magid shiur, etc. – would you be less uncomfortable about accepting your parents’ financial support?
-If you were independently wealthy – let’s say you won the lottery – would you then be OK with not getting a job in the secular world?
-If a rich philanthropist would support you while you worked full-time for an organization that did chessed – let’s say Tomchei Shabbos, Camp Simcha or the like – would you be comfortable with such an arrangement?
-If the answer to the previous question is “yes”, isn’t getting supported while learning similar, especially if the objective is to eventually teach and help others?
In both cases the financial help of others would be allowing you to spend your time performing mitzvos.
As someone who’s been working in the secular world for a while, I urge you to recognize your unique opportunity.
(I didn’t go to kolel mainly because I felt that my learning wasn’t serious enough that it would be fair to ask someone else to support me.
Even nowadays, if I was to win the lottery I’d probably spend a couple of hours a day learning and the rest volunteering in a chessed organization – I’m just not that good or that serious a learner.)
In todays world, even people who go to college are frequently supported by their parents for several years until they finish their degrees and get jobs.
I don’t think this is a reason to leave.
Why does staying in yeshiva necessarily mean that you’re being supported by your parents? Why can’t you just live within your means without them helping you? My husband is in kollel and we have 8 kids and no help from our parents or tzedakah. I run a business from home and my husband tutors at night and we manage. We don’t own a car, don’t go out to eat, our kids wear hand me downs, etc, but at least we’re able to be independent and not worry about being a burden on others. If you’re only talking about a few years, why do your parents have to be part of the equation?
There’s nothing wrong with trying to stay in a place where your yetzer hara doesn’t have a chance. You don’t have to give him a chance. There’s a reason Hashem wants people to learn Torah so badly. Barasi yetzer hara, barasi torah tavlin. It’s not a fantasy world, it’s a very real facet of the world and one that Hashem wants us to be a part of as much as possible. It’s definitely the real world. It may feel too good to be true but it’s real alright. (And if you’re worried that you’re not in the real world because you never feel the yetzer hara and then what’s the point, perhaps it’s the yetzer hara that’s trying to get you to second guess your learning now?? This is just food for thought and not ch”v an accusation)
The real question is, do you want to keep learning, but are worried that you will never grow up and be responsible that way, OR are you in some way afraid to commit your life to a reliant parnassah? Neither is wrong or right, but you have to decide where you’re coming from before you can come to a decision.
It’s hard to give personal advice because as ‘i can only try’ said, to learn or not to learn depends on each individual person. But I think that if you feel yourself able, you should try to stay for as long as you can and see where it takes you. Don’t ever be embarrassed of doing what’s good for your spiritual growth. It’s tough because no one likes to feel like they’re on the receiving end of things. But if you do enjoy being in yeshiva and you feel that it’s good for you – stay. It’s a hard thing to end up regretting.
Good luck whatever you end up doing.
sonei matanos yichyeh- one who hates gifts will live. I don’t think this is as easy as many people in the cr are making it out to be. Talmud Torah keneged kulam and the beis medrash is the real life, but being supported is not an ideal. I don’t mean if a kollel is paying someone because those are the wages for a job not a gift. But being supported by parents is a gift and is not necessarily the ideal way to live life. It’s a big clash and it’s something that I struggle with, and it’s something that I feel not enough people struggle with. Taking money is never ideal.
Depends how wealthy.
Why work if you don’t need the money?
I recommend doing part time college and part time Yeshiva. You get to continue learning but are working towards a parnassah opportunity. There are a few reasons I recommend this:
1) Your family may experience economic hardship and have to stop supporting you. If you are trained in a profession, you can go right to work
2) Its a lot easier to finish your schooling pre-marriage/children. It will also make you a better catch (you can learn full time or work to support your family).
3) You seem uncomfortable with the concept of living off of others. Kol hakavod! But remember, if your family wants to support you, and you aren’t taking advantage of them, then its ok to be supported.
Good luck with your decision.
The real world is halacha. Speak to your individual Rebbe/Rav about your particular situation and whatever he tells you, that is the real world, for you.
If you are sincere about your learning and that is what you want to do after you get married do so without taking money from your parents. What do kollel familes who do not have wealthy parents do? Live within your kollel stipend, your wife’s income, your income from tutoring etc.. and you should be fine.
Am I the only person who thinks that this post was possibly written either by the parents of a boy who wants to stay in Yeshivah, and they are trying to encourage him to leave, or by someone in the CR who has this view (myself included, depending on the situation)?
Look, there is no question that in the ideal world of Yemos Hamoshiach, all men should be able to sit and learn and not worry about parnassah. But THIS is the real world, contrary to what some of you may believe, and in the real world, bills must get paid, parents must take MUTUAL responsibililty for the rearing of their children, and there is a (Torah)life OUTSIDE of the Beis Medrash.
Oh yes, children grow up and have to take charge of their own lives, and let their parents FINALLY relax and reap the benefits of their hard work to provide a Torah life for their children while they were growing up. This next generation is in for a real shock when THEIR kids want to sit in Beis Medrash all day, and there are no financial resources to help them because everyone stopped earning the parnassah that their parents did.
Kfb (why is fried chicken suddenly coming to mind…), if you are sincere, and this is not a set-up (and I aplogize for being chosheid on keshairim, if you are indeed a yeshivah boy asking a legitimate question), then I suggest you figure out a way, as do so many other young men, to COMBINE Torah learning with secular education and preparation for THE REAL WORLD. Everyone who called it the “Oilem Hasheker” means well. Spiritually,they are correct. But their SC (spiritual correctness), much like political correctness, is based on emotion and not on the logical realization that ultimately you must rely on your own resources to make your way ion the world. Parents’ finances are not a never-ending well for children. We have created a generation of young adults who feel a sense of entitlement, and that is AWFUL.
My father and my brothers both learned and worked. My father O”H was an amazing talmid chochom, who gave shiurim, learned on a daily basis, worked hard to provide for his family, and taught that same ethic to all of us. There is no reason why you cannot do the same. Clearly it matters to you, whoever you are. And even if your post was written by someone other than a Yeshivah bochur who genuinely was seeking an asnwer or just as a joke, it resonates strongly, with the idea that our kids need to be the masters of their own souls, and stop thinking mommy and tatty are totally responsible for them at age 25.
I have a feeling that this is yet another Joseph thread. He’s rich, he’s poor, now he has rich parents and wants to leave yeshiva for college. It sounds exactly like the type of debate he likes to start.
kfb, Kol Hakavod to you! Those who feel a sense of duty as you do are unfortunately few and far between in this world.
This may not be what you are looking for, but you sound like a serious and intelligent person. I would therefore strongly urge you to read R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch’s “The Nineteen Letters,” and “Horeb.” I think that his ideas will open up a world of insight, inspiration, and encouragement to you!
Continue your college education! Learn all you can while you can, and store away this knowledge for use during you life ahead. Pursue a working path that appeals to you, complements your natural talents, in a field where you feel you can make a real contribution to the world at large! You have a great benefit, I think, in your family’s financial situation; it gives you an incredible opportunity that few working people have. You may be able to pursue a career the most appeals to your nature and where you will best contribute to society, with less of a concern for basic dollars and cents. Your desire for independence and your drive to shoulder your obligations is admirable, but please don’t miss the opportunity that your God-given financial situation affords.
And please, throughout all this, strive for excellence in Torah!!! Be ever conscious of how your chosen career path can contribute uniquely to the world’s appreciation of Torah, and also how your Torah knowledge can provide you and others a unique perspective and appreciation for your profession.
(As an example, I myself am a law student, and am also persuing smichah in Choshen Mishpat. My study of Choshen Mishpat allows me to constantly advocate and support Torah-informed perspectives on legal issues. I regularly find my teachers and peers impressed by my perspective, and I can only hope that my efforts contribute in some small way to a general recognition of the Ratzon Hashem among all peoples of the world. My legal studies too support and fine-tune my learning Choshen Mishpat.)
RSRH- Well said. Your combination of Law Studies together with Choshen Misphpat would make RSRH proud. A true example of T.I.D.E.
“RSRH- Well said. Your combination of Law Studies together with Choshen Misphpat would make RSRH proud. A true example of T.I.D.E. “
Amen.
Efshar l’kayem shnehem. Go to night school while still in yeshiva. After you get married, you and your wife can decide how many years you learn (NOT SIT) in kollel before going to work.
Thank you both. I do hope so.
Stay tuned for an upcoming Law Review article I will be publishing arguing that American law could learn much from the Torah’s approach to the role of courts and judges, and the purposes of litigation. I’m sure I will post it online somewhere when its done.
I agree with the T.I.D.E. guy!!! Thats the way to go, but if you are in shudduchim be wary of the fact that most girls today are looking for boys who at least for the first few years are committed to full time learning. You may be advised to put off college for a few years and even though its harder after marriage and kids, it is do able…
The question is, Torah is a matter of the mind, not the hands. Yet there are many places that link torah and hands. Why?
why would u feel bad taking your parents money if they are happy to give it to you. Its the “frum yetzer hara” that is telling u this crum s’vara. i think deep down u realize that the right decision is to stay learning
I agree with the T.I.D.E. guy!!! Thats the way to go, but if you are in shudduchim be wary of the fact that most girls today are looking for boys who at least for the first few years are committed to full time learning. You may be advised to put off college for a few years and even though its harder after marriage and kids, it is do able… “
I agree also, but be careful of attributing any ideology to MOST girls. Many frum girls are NOT of that mindset. Most girls who want learning boys for the first years of marriage, are from a specific hashkafa. There is a world of frumkeit that does not embrace this philosophy as an absolute. they believe in TIDE (and in order to be able to afford Tide on a regular basis, you need to have a job). 🙂
Oomis –
I know its off topic, but you MUST go over to the joke thread, and scroll up a day or so, till you get to the “1st, 2nd, 3rd” list. I read it yesterday, and its right up you alley (I found myself relating to almost every one on the list, to some degree or another)
I daven that my husband should learn seriously and that my son should learn seriously all the days of their life. When I read your post, I was speechless. Your parents have the incredible zchus to support their child in the most important occupation and so do you have the zchus to be born into a family that is able to do that … There is nothing out there at all. As a baal teshuva I can tell you that. Everything that you have to learn is exactly where you’re learning it in Yeshiva/kollel. That doesn’t mean that you can’t make a little parnassa doing something not very taxing, but if learning can be your primary occupation, how can you turn it down?? Hashem Yisborach has given you such a gift, please learn to understand it and appreciate it fully. As a parent, I can tell you to PLEASE not feel guilty. Unless your parents are doing slave labor to support your learning — which it doesn’t sound like they are — (and many parents would do slave labor to keep their children in learning)– then I am sure that your parents are very greatful to be able to do it. What, after all, is their money for?? They are supporting Torah… and that is you. Your Torah learning is their reward in this world and the next. Please don’t listen to anyone that tells you otherwise. Going to work or making earning a parnassa your primary concern UNLESS you are forced to (like the rest of us, to an extent), going out there with the goim, with the materialists, etc etc… why?? if you can be immersed in Emes the entire day, that is the absolute greatest. There is a lot more to say on this topic, but here is my 10 cents…
My legal studies too support and fine-tune my learning Choshen Mishpat.
Not a good idea. You will corrupt the Torah you learn.
I have to post on this thread what I post on all these threads.
You cannot pretend that learning part time is the same as learning full time.
You cannot pretend that learning for 5 years is the same as learning for 10.
You are perfectly entitled to believe what you want about the relative importance of learning and secular studies, but it behooves you to state clearly your position on that, and not try to make as if you have bridged the gap.
yiddishemishpacha,
Your “ten cents” is priceless.
yiddishemishpacha, your touching response beginning with “I daven that my husband should learn seriously “… holds true if these two factors (and some others) are in place:
1- IF his parents can commit in a way that will go on and enable him to marry off all his kids. We’re talking trust funds. Otherwise we’re talking about Bitachon on programs…
2- IF he marries a girl who will stay happy with that lifestyle and not look at siblings and friends who live differently (nice houses, etc). Unfortunately too often the rich guys end up with rich girls who down the road want a different lifestyle (because they have a different outlook on life than straight out of seminary), which not all in laws/parents are willing or able to afford. Also, how low maintenance is he, and will he stay that way as he gets older?
It’s not Pashut.
Aizehu Chacham Haroeh es Hanolad.
IF his parents can commit in a way that will go on and enable him to marry off all his kids. We’re talking trust funds. Otherwise we’re talking about Bitachon on programs…
According to your condition, almost nobody would devote their lives (or even the first several years) to full-time learning.
Trust funds? Bitochon comes in somewhere!
As far as the second point, a serious learner should make sure to marry a woman who shares his goals. But the risk you describe does not and cannot mean that nobody should learn full time.
If Klal Yisroel followed your criteria, we would have no gedolim, c”v.
“Not a good idea. You will corrupt the Torah you learn.”
Daas Yochid,
Congratulations! From your comment I gather that you have both attended law school and studied for smichah in Choshen Mishpat. It isn’t easy doing both at once, and I commend you, especially on your Choshen Mishpat studies – its an area of halachah that is severely neglected these days.
On the off chance that you haven’t studied law and Choshen Mishpat, I might suggest that you do so before reaching such conclusions. I would also ask you to consider the fact that the secular legal world has a legal tradition that in some ways is quantitatively richer than our own. The American legal system, and its English progenitor has been serving billions of people for almost 1,000 years. The system has heard and decided tens of millions of cases on every issue you can think of – and many you never would imagine. Simply put, studying American law makes me aware of issues that Batei Din have never had to confront, and possible solutions to old problems that the Beis Din system did not have the experience to implement. Of course, since I do not yet have smichah, all of these ideas are purely theoretical, and I would not apply them as halachah l’maaseh. Nevertheless, they are interesting, insightful, and do much to sharpen the test my understanding of the halacah.
Daas Yochid, both husband and wife have to want the Kollel lifestyle, like they want air to breathe, and be totally focused on Ruchnius, except for necessities, otherwise it spells misery for all involved.
Putting on my protective gear- here I go:
These days living in Lakewood , the biggest Kollel community in the US, often means keeping up with the Joneses. Lakewood is no longer a community restricted to Kollel familes, with Kollel style homes, cars and clothing, or even food, of old. If either husband or wife will feel unhappy if they cant have what those around them have, Kollel isnt for them. It will cause major unhappiness. On the other hand, if they are TOTALLY ibergegeben to learning, and are ok getting things from Gmachs, etc, and couldnt care less if the Gashmiusdik crowd considers them nebby, they will not even notice/care what others have, because they’ll feel “Toirah iz de besta Schoireh”.
There are many Kollel yungeleit like that, where the “real” Gedolim come from, but too many who choose the Kollel lifestyle are not on that Madrega these days, and end up being disenchanted.
Generally, those who are OK living in smaller, less Gashmiusdik communities, have an easier time with the Kollel lifestyle, long term.
Daas Yochid: Well said. Many Gedolim have said the very same thing you have.
Gut Voch.
“RSRH”,
Simply put, studying American law makes me aware of issues that Batei Din have never had to confront,
On that point, I agree. Talmidei chachomim have always discussed how the Torah deals with issues that were not directly addressed by earlier talmidei chachomim.
and possible solutions to old problems that the Beis Din system did not have the experience to implement.
If you mean that because of their larger caseload, the secular courts have something over the poskim, I disagree in the strongest terms. Everything is contained in the Torah. It’s the poskim`s duty, in every generation, to best uncover how the Torah deals with any “new” situation, unaffected by the secular perspective (l’havdil). Good luck, by the way, on your law Review article.
“Ofcourse”,
No need for protective gear, I come peacefully.
If your point is simply that some people don’t really have the proper commitment to Torah because they still need their physical pleasures, I agree, but it seems to me that you were arguing for not learning in kollel without extereme wealth.
In other words, I still disagree with your earlier post, but I too am pained by the sad reality expressed in your last post, which exists for some. Yet, many do sacrifice the material for a life dedicated to learning.
“Gabboim”,
Thank you.
RSRH, I respond to the following:
Stay tuned for an upcoming Law Review article I will be publishing arguing that American law could learn much from the Torah’s approach to the role of courts and judges, and the purposes of litigation. I’m sure I will post it online somewhere when its done.
Assuming you are actually writing for the legal profession and not the “heimishe olam,” I’ll be interested in reading. But let’s get serious for a moment. Do you think Chief Justice Roberts will read your article and then order an Artscroll Shas?
I would guess that 99.9 per cent of American lawyers and judges know nothing about the Torah (assuming you are including the Torah She b’al Peh). This is not likely to change soon.
–Homeowner, Esq.
Homeowner,
Thanks for your interest. Yes, the article is being written for an academic audience.
I don’t have any illusions of U.S.C. or Fed. Rep. being replaced by Shulchan Aruch and Shailos U’teshuvos Chassam Sofer. However, there is a growing movement in legal academia to study Jewish law.
There is also an interesting Law Review article (sorry, I don’t have the citation off hand, but I believe its available at jlaw.com) that goes through many State and Federal decisions that reference Jewish law. Even the United State’s Supreme Court has done so on occasion (a footnote in Miranda, and Justice Scalia’s dissent in Caperton are just two examples).
For me, its not so much about getting getting a Chapter on Arbah Avos Nezikin included in the next edition of Prosser on Torts. It’s more about bringing to light the Torah’s duty-based approach to life and law, which I believe stems from the Torah’s view that law is not just about regulating conduct; its about doing so in a way that calls individuals and communities to ennoble themselves by choosing to shoulder the burdens that the law imposes for the benefit of others.
Also, much of what American lawyers, judges, and academics do know about Torah law is unfortunately wrong as it is based on the work of several non-orthodox writers (Robert Cover, for example). I do not think correcting misconceptions among those who do care about Jewish law is an empty effort at all, and I hope to contribute more in this regard during my career.
honestly this is not the place to be getting life altering advice!!!!!!!! ask a rebbe and he’ll tell u what u shud do. I assume he’ll tell u to do what i said and that is to keep learning. Bujt the CR is definately not a place for this
u never know maybe there are gedolim that are on this website under screennames!!!!!
stamagoy
I’m sure…
I do agree with DY that attempting to apply secular law in a Torah setting is corrupting.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.