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Midwest- Please cite statistical studies that state that “having guns in the house is a lot more dangerous than you think….” I have yet seen an honest study (and I have done research on this topic as it interests me) that clearly states this. All studies I have found state that owning a gun reduces crime, deters intruders etc.
Trying my Best- I think you would be interested in reading “Guns, Crime and Freedom” (LaPierre) and “More Guns, Less Crime” (Lott).
Might shake your mindset a little.
When you read just these two books (I have read plenty others) come back and comment.
Remember this : (all heard from other people…)
*Guns kill people just like pencils misspell words.
*When seconds count, the police are minutes away.
*”There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen.”
[Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616, at 618 (7th Cir. 1982)]
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In 1996 the UKs political elite said that a handgun ban would reduce armed crime.
When it didn’t they said a ban on air cartridge guns would reduce armed crime.
When it didn’t they said a ban on replicas would reduce armed crime.
When it didn’t they tried to ban deactivated guns, but failed because the murder being used as their excuse wasn’t committed with a reactivated gun after all.
Now that armed crime is way above the 1996 level (pre-bans) they don’t want to talk about it.
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When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don’t deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I’m innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don’t own a gun.
Now they’ve come for the first amendment, and I can’t say anything at all.
To: havesomeseichel – well said! To: others…
When it comes to guns people don’t use logic.
They are afraid of guns.
They are afraid of what criminals do with them.
They are afraid of the sound they make.
They are afraid of them PERIOD – so logic doesn’t work.
How could ANY gun law make anyone safer, when criminals BY DEFINITION don’t care about the law.
Has anyone ever heard of a criminal saying “Well, I DO rob people, I DO deal drugs, I DO rape, BUT since I can’t get a legal gun so I don’t use guns.”
Of course not.
Gun laws ONLY keep law-abiding people from getting guns,
NOT criminals.
As I said, no logic.
Still waiting for an anti-gun person to tell me what he plans to do if, chalila, an armed intruder breaks into his house in the middle of the night…
I have a lot of thoughts on this issue but since it is so controversial I prefer to keep most of them to myself.
I will say that just like the freedom of religion is protected in the Bill of Rights, so is the freedom to keep and bear arms.
Like most rights, if you don’t exercise them someone may come along one day and say you don’t need this.
I would recommend that everyone take an NRA or other Gun training class and learn more.
I think you should all make a pshoro:
get supersoakers!
not so deadly but if you have a spare bottle or a hose then the criminals will still run a mile!
Blueprints- and if they are armed? It will just get them angry… not a good thing. Better a .45 or a .338 any day.
AIN- thanks! 😉
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2A (Second Amendment) came right after 1A because it is the only thing to keep your freedoms alive.
The 4 boxes to protect human rights and freedoms: (1) the soapbox (freedom of speech); (2) the ballot box (the right to vote); (3) the jury box (trial by peers); and (4) the cartridge box (right to bear arms).
Take away one and we are all doomed… and you can forget all other rights and liberties, like freedom of religion or speech.
AinOd Im just curious if it comes l’maaseh will you really be able to use it? I know, i know, youre going to say of course if someone breaks in i will do anything necessary to protect myself but will you really be able to? Shooting at a range and shooting a person are so different. I dont know if i would be able to even if my life was in danger.
havesomeseichel: have some seichel (you’ve probably heard that before)
he’ll have a bigger gun
your only chance is a supersoaker maybe waterbombs too that should send him scurrying off with his tail between his legs
By the way, anything can be a weapon.
The way you make a weapon out of a super soaker is by filling it with bleach.
Shooting at a range and shooting a person are so different.
They have ranges where the targets move.
Popa – The way you ruin your pants is by filling a super-soaker with bleach!
BUT – you ARE correct, – in a pinch almost anything CAN be used as a weapon…
from a key ring to a comb to a pen to a belt.
Ya gotta get creative when necessary.
Try a paintball gun. Thats a real weapon. Definately more colorful than bleach
BEST IMA – A fair question.
Of course no one can really know FOR SURE until you’re in the situation, BUT…
There have been a few times when I DID or THOUGHT I did hear some something in the house, and I was able to stay very calm, get my gun and act appropriately.
True, actually having to pull the trigger on someone IS different, but I really do not believe that if it was necessary, that I’d have a problem doing it. Once an intruder enters your home, they lose their rights. They are no longer a person. They are just a danger to the lives of your family members, and that danger has to be eliminated.
You obviously don’t know me. I am in no way a cold person. I’ll get all teary reading a story about something bad that happened to Yidden 500 years ago, but if someone is threatening the safety of my family, the adrenaline is pumping and there is only one thought in mind – Ha’Ba le’har’ge’cha, hashkaiym le’har’go!
Best Ima – I understand your doubts, and it is good to recognize that you have them. That’s why a person should not just go buy themselves a gun, they MUST be trained technically and MENTALLY how to use it.
yes, and fill the paintballs with nitro
Many years ago I had a teenager staying with me for a short time. I wanted to make sure he was safe in case his stepfather came after him. That’s when I learned to use a gun. B’H I never needed to, but if it was necessary to protect the kid, I would have.
Blueprints- what do you mean? Who knows who will draw and pull the trigger first? Just the fact that I am holding one can very well scare them off as they don’t know if I have a hair trigger or a 5 lb one…
Just hang up a sign of your most recent target from the range outside your house. Mine will certainly scare them off…
This reminds me… it has been a little too long since I have been at the range….
AinOd my father was killed by some loser that was not supposed to be carrying a gun. He walked into a store at the wrong time. My mother & some of my siblings do carry guns but they need it for their jobs. I was so scared after my father passed away i was afraid to walk out of the house but i dont think im the type of person that would actually be able to use it even if it was a choice of me or him. On a more humourous note i did once go to purchase a shotgun which is no big deal upstate if you have I D. Anyone can purchase one. I was upstate with 8 of the kids by myself and there was a huge black bear that kept coming to our bungalow every night. One night he ripped the screen down and came inside. The cops laughed when i called them they were walking around with their rifles out they’re like we didnt find a bear should we shoot a kid?? So i went to walmart the next day i told the guy i need a shotgun in case the bear came inside again. He looked at me and said would you actually shoot it? I was all like of course i have 8 kids sleeping in there! Then i thought about it and said no way i wouldnt be able to so i bought a foghorn and left. I guess it is helpful if you can actually use it. If youre afraid to use it you shouldnt be carrying one .
havesomeseichel: you’re a psycopath!!! don’t look behind but there are the men in white coats.(joking)
You don’t have to actually read into it people. nobody beat a burglar with a supersoaker even with bleach!
ainohdmilvado: have you heard of the halocho bo bemachteres
AHHH my cover is blown now…I am writing from a locked ward…the sky is full of fish…there are monkeys crawling up my walls… just kidding. I have no mental disorder or other psychiatric condition..
but seriously, why am I a psychopath? do you even know the definition of that word?
“A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.”
Sorry, but I am not antisocial in the least bit. What is amoral about wanting to protect my family? What is criminal about following the (unconstitutional) laws in place? How do you know where I am from, what the laws are in my location? And I won’t have empathy for a cold-blooded killer who attacks my family.
BEST IMA –
If you really feel you would not be able to fire a gun at an attacker, it IS better that you don’t have one. We would not want, chas v’chalila, that it be taken from you and used against you.
HOWEVER, I think you implied that you live outside of New York City (where anything more powerful than a watergun is either illegal altogether, or requires a license). If that is the case, I would strongly urge you to get a strong pepper spray which could protect you and your family without killing the attacker.
For you and others who may feel as you do, for a powerful, yet non-lethal product, check out…
AOM: You live outside of NYC? Or did you manage to get a license in NYC?
Trying my best…
No, being that I AM in NYC, I can’t get the spray I recommended for BEST IMA. She however seemed to say that she does not live in NYC (if I understood her correctly), that’s why I suggested it for her since she is uncomfortable with firearms.
I live in NYC and hold a NYC Rifle/Shotgun permit.
From a legal standpoint (lawyers feel free to back me up here)
If you fire on an armed intruder, you better go for the kill shot! As a wrongful death suit will cost you a lot less in the long run vs. a personal injury claim and emotinal distress and disability blah blah blah.
If you own a weapon you need to have the koach to use it and not hesitate.
Maybe someone who is really knowledgeable on the writing of the Ramban..but didnt all jews carry swords at that time and a special one for shabbous?
I spent a shabbous back in 2002 in the old city and davened at a minyan either very near or in the arab quarter and it was the most heavily armed shul on the planet. One guy had a beautiful silver plated 45 and when I commented on it he goes “you like? its my shabbous gun”
Here in chuz la’aretz maybe the maturity level isnt there but if things get bad enough I would call on the high schools and beis medrish programs to offer some weapons training because its only a matter of time before some arabs shoot up a school or at least try to. It would be nice if they were met with some resistance and we were able to say “Damenu Lo Hefker”
“cleverjewishpun”…
You wrote…
“if things get bad enough I would call on the high schools and beis medrish programs to offer some weapons training because its only a matter of time…”
You are correct that this is needed. Not just for Jewish Schools, but for shuls as well.
You said “if things get bad enough…” It’s very sad to think that people will not wake up to this need until AFTER “things get bad enough”. The truth is, that if you mention it NOW to the rov or president of shul, or to the menahel of a school, they will think you are some kind of a nut. It will only be, r”l, AFTER a tragedy, that (some) people will wake up.
EVERY shul and EVERY Jewish School should have (at least one) armed guard (and I don’t mean some old retired cop with a “six-shooter”.)
Aizeh hu chacham? Ha’ro’eh et ha’nolad!
Unfortunately, even with all our historical experience of violence against us, we Jews never seem to learn.
While we are subject to the rule of law and most communities enjoy a good working relationship with law enforcement, there are times when extra measures are needed.
When the Merkaz Harav attack happened, none of the actual students were armed nor were there any guards but someone in the beis medrish had served and knew what to do to take that guy down, if it happened where I went to high schoool, the mamzer could have wiped out half the student body.
Food for thought, average highschool tuition is about what 13 or 14 thousand a year? When you consider the critera for choosing a school (i.e. learning level, how it will look on a shidduch resume etc) why isnt safety a concern?
All it takes is one yishmaeli to get his hands on a weapon
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@AinOd
Some of our brethren think being passive and not making the goyim mad by hitting back is the way to go
We have as much a right to be in this country as any one else.
Old way of thinking on saftey issues needs to be revamped
This should not be seen as a call to arms or a revolt but some serious consideration on how to keep the community safe
EDITED
a jewish home need no juns,if you trust in hashem,the rest will iy”h be taken care of. p.s. and by the way if any tning is meant to happen to anyone it will most probably happen with the gun in the house. so i think,and beleive.
deiyezooger…
Did you ever hear of doing your hishtadlus?!?
If an armed thug enters your home, do you feel you, or most of us, merit a nais nigla???
If you really truly believe that “if anything is meant to happen to anyone it will…”, then with that reasoning, you don’t have to look when you cross the street, and I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if your young daughter (if you have one) would walk through the streets of a bad neighborhood alone at night.
I have at least as much, if not more, emunah and bitachon in HaSh-m as you do, but I also know I have to do MY hishtadlus.
When the Chashmonaim went out against the Greeks they had huge faith. These also had huge SWORDS!
im sorry but guns are the wrong tools to keep in the house for protection, own a seforim shank filled with seforim in it, and use it think of hashem and say his name the whole day theese things help yes i think it does better than a gun.
There needs to be a clear differentiation between living in the US and living in EY. Likewise living in some parts of Brooklyn and living in a tame OOT neighborhood are different, as are living in Beit Shemesh and living in a settlement.
The primary purpose of guns is to kill people, and they are VERY VERY dangerous. I’ve had gun safety and I can tell you that there is no such thing as an unloaded gun. In fact, every year many people are killed by “unloaded” guns.
So check the statistics in your area. If the odds of being the victim of violent crime or terrorism are high, then, if you have considered the danger of accidents (like your kid getting killed) then by all means get one and take the proper precautions.
And if the stats are low and you don’t need one – don’t be a fool. A gun is a bomb waiting to go off. You don’t want to take on that risk to your family just to look macho.
Good Luck with that mehalaich deiyezooger.
When someone, chalila, breaks in to your home, grab a nice heavy Bava Metzia and hit him over the head with it!
I don’t know why the Chashmonaim didn’t think of your approach.
I can almost hear Mattisy-ahu calling…
“Whoever is for HaSh-m — Come to my house to learn with me!”
deiyezooger…
You must really be a tzadik GAMUR to be able to trust in a naiys niglah to protect you…
a Yid should definitely own a gun, ever heard of the Nazis H’Y D
America Stands Strong:
A single gun will not help you in that case.
(call me John Galt or JWR).
gavra…
You are right.
Having a gun would probably not have stopped the Holocaust.
It’s doubtful if even EVERY german Jew had had a gun if it would would have stopped the Holocaust.
BUT… NOW, with the experience of the Holocaust in our hearts and souls and minds, having a gun CAN, at the very least, keep us from ever again being dragged away like sheep.
AND, having (and knowing how to use) a gun CAN definitely make a life and death difference if your home if your home is broken into by armed thugs.
clever jewish pun:
they were only allowed to carry weapons on shabbos cos it was a time of danger!
and havesomeseichel: admit it, you do feel the urge to blow away those green speckled monkeys crawling in the ceiling (I wasn’t that far off if my diagnosis)
AinOd thank you for the advice. I am in Long Isand i dont know if the NYC laws are the same here. There have been a crazy amount of break-ins in Jewish homes here over the last few months. The police think its the same group of guys each time but they cant catch them. They are getting much more agressive lately. Before they would watch the house and only break in when noone was home but now theyre coming in any time of the day and night. A girl woke up the other night and a guy was standing in her room over her bed. There is a lecture tom night for the community on how to protect yourselves in these situations. Lets see what they recommend.
The sword is the sign of Eisev, not Yaakov.
Blueprint- now that was twice you called me “mentally unstable” or “psychopathic”. I am awaiting an apology- that is not a way to treat a fellow human being or a fellow yid. I am in no ways mentally incompetent, insane or psychopathic. How do you know I am not someone you come to for advice all the time? Maybe a Rav or Rebtzn? A teacher? Your child’s teacher, pediatrician, or even a brain surgeon?
Blueprints- depending on where you live, it might still be considered a time of danger (so you can carry on shabbos). But in many places, you should still own a gun because the statistics show that thousands of crimes each year are thwarted by someone SHOWING a gun, not even using it.
Midwest 2- How many more people are killed when they could have saved themselves (than “unloaded gun” shootings)? What about all those times when an armed assailant came into a school, shul or university and started shooting? Columbine was a gun free zone. So was Virginia Tech. Didn’t help those students there. If students or teachers carried, how many more lives could have been saved?
“I can almost hear Mattisy-ahu calling…
“Whoever is for HaSh-m — Come to my house to learn with me!””
The Chasmonoim were not protecting their houses, thay were protecting the Torah. When Haman wanted to kill the jews Mordechi didn’t fight back he called the Yidden to fast and pray.
As for hishtadlos, walking with closed eyes into the road is puting yourself into a sakana. Locking your door is hishtadlos, having a gun is saying G-d I can take care of myself.
Eisev carries the sword, not Yaakov.
Are you a Yaakov or an Eisev?
ill stick to yaakov.
But will you walk in Harlem or South Central LA (or wherever the gangs are shooting nowadays…)? If the bullets are meant to hit you, they will…
What is the difference really between locking your doors at night and carrying a gun by day? or keeping a gun in your house? Basically, your argument deals with fine lines on hashkafic topics, meant for another thread….
deiyezooger…
You could not be more wrong!
Sure, Mordechai and the people prayed. I pray too.
We pray to merit that HaSh-m will do His part for us.
But what did the Yehudim end up doing at the end of the megilla?
They went out WITH THEIR WEAPONS and killed TENS of THOUSANDS of their enemies!!!
By the way my brother…
Locking your doors is a good idea, but any robber with a pry-bar can open a locked door in about 3 seconds, so I would not count on that for protection for your family or as your “hishtadlus”.
Having a gun is NOT AT ALL saying to HASH-M that I can take care of myself. HaSh-m gave me the wisdom to realize what I need to do for my hishtadlus, and if, chalila, I ever need to defend my family with my gun, it will be HaSh-m I will need to keep my hands steady, and make my shot count.
AinOhdMilvado:
You are right.
Having a gun would probably not have stopped the Holocaust.
It’s doubtful if even EVERY german Jew had had a gun if it would would have stopped the Holocaust.
BUT… NOW, with the experience of the Holocaust in our hearts and souls and minds, having a gun CAN, at the very least, keep us from ever again being dragged away like sheep.
AND, having (and knowing how to use) a gun CAN definitely make a life and death difference if your home if your home is broken into by armed thugs.
In that sort of Scenario, you are much better off being prepared to bug out. And do you really expect to keep a loaded handgun in your night table in case you are invaded? Once again, you are better off (and safer) giving them what they want (if C”V something happens), and having good insurance.
gavra:
In earlier comments I explained that though I do NOT “have a loaded gun in my night table”, I DO have an UNloaded gun and (seperately) a mag of ammo, both safely out of sight, but both where I can grab them and load my weapon in less than 60 seconds from my hearing the sound of a possible break-in.
As far as giving them what they want…
That’s fine IF all they want is your money or jewelry,
BUT, – sometimes they want your wife or your daughter (ha’mayveen yaveen) and your life/lives.
THAT is why I’m such a strong believer in…
Better to have it and never need it
Than need it and not have it.
THAT is why I try to urge others
to HAVE firearms (and b’ezrat HaSh-m, NEVER need to use them.)
So who is a Yaakov and who is an Eisev?
havesomeseichel: come on who hasn’t seen these speckled apes climbing the pipes we wouldn’t be posting on ywn unless we were all clinically insane
“The Chasmonoim were not protecting their houses, thay were
protecting the Torah.”
I’m surprised there has been no discussion of relevant halachot. Is this not a torah site? Most intruders aren’t tunneling into your house.
charliehall: that’s a bad idea kemat any halachik threads end up with people repeating each other and giving their own sevoros with no mekoros
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