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No. Cham was a person who also didn’t follow the commandment to separate, just as you say.
I mean from the animals.
Frumladygit – it’s wise not to take midrashim too literally. They were meant to be metaphorical statements about hashkafah. Check out R’ Aharon Feldman’s “The Juggler and the King,” where he interprets the Vilna Gaon’s short work on the nonliteralness of Aggadata. BTW, he’s definitely mainstream, as he’s Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Israel Yeshiva in Baltimore. i’m pretty sure the GRA was also mainstream, but I’m sure there are those that would dispute that too 😉
Ok so a dog is a clean companion in any case, good enough to have in a holy yiddisher home, even without what the midrash says?
They lick themselves to clean. Then they lick your face.
Now this reminds me of the following story.
A man made a bet with his friend that his dog can talk and is very smart. He asked it some questions in front of the friend:
1) What is the top part of the house called?
The dog answered: WOOF.
2) What does it feel like if sandpaper rubs your nose?
The dog answered: RUFF.
3) Who was the greatest baseball player of all time?
The dog answered ROOF:
The friend said “Come on, that’s ridiculous. Your dog doesn’t know anything.”
As the friend was leaving the dog turned to his owner and asked, “Why did he get so upset? Should I have said Gehrig?”
Bravo!
MeoMeo or was it RuffRuff:
The Gemarah talks (deals) with being megadal a Kelev Rah – one who barks (startles / freightens people) even without biting. Like RuffRuff>byte (or Ruff 2 byte)
However with a tame one, one can do various mitzvhos, feeding before eating, tzar baalai chaim, walking with a koser leash on shabbos.
Yochie, we’ll discuss it on Shabbos, when you come over with your dog.
Just pointing out that dogs and babies can be a very dangerous combination. There was a story in the news about a year ago about a dog, who was supposedly house trained and loves kids, who took a newborn baby out of his crib and ran with it deep into the forest. The baby was found in critical condition with his head ripped open and needed a prolonged hospitalization with multiple surgeries.
Derech Hamelech, I apologize for sniping at you.
the Shulchan Arukh doesn’t mention any particular restrictions on having pets.(3) And the sages of the Talmud and the Talmudic era continue to acknowledge the unique connection that exists between an animal and its owner. In one place, the Talmud acknowledges the unique canine characteristic of loyalty to the master. (4) Elsewhere, we learn that animals can absorb the sensitivity to holiness displayed by a righteous master. For example, we learn that the donkey of the renowned saint Rabbi Pinchas ben Yair refused to eat untithed produce, leading the Talmud to comment “the Holy One blessed by He doesn’t make the animal of a righteous person an [ethical] obstacle.” The Midrash tells of a cow that became accustomed to resting on Shabbat and refused to work on that day even after being sold to a non-Jew, until its former owner gently explained that the new master was not obligated to provide a day of rest.
At the end of the day, like everything else Some will say it’s fine others it’s not ideal. To clearly say it’s wrong is actually not true. True there are some considerations with Halacha, but if educated they are easy to work with. If you have a dog you know how gentle and loving they could be. They’re silliness provides smiles to the whole family. Children form a wonderful bond with them and they are very theraputic especially for the elderly who are often alone. Fot those of you who don’t have one that is fine, but to say it’s a sin is completly wrong and not founded on Halacha.
” I now need to decide what kinda dog to get”
Golden Retriever
Ruff! Ruff! NOO! Only if he wants to keep other Yidden away.
J/K I wouldn’t & I would stay away from anyone that did,
even a cute poodle. I’m just a clean guy who loathes filthy
things. Seriously having to scoop up poop? I don’t thing we came
down here to fulfill that duty, but lot’s of luck to those who’d rather choose his mans best friend to be a four legged, tail wagging, barking, pooper.
>>> I now need to decide what kinda dog to get.<<<
Shepherds are great, retrievers are great. They are naturally caring and willing to work hard to please you. I had a shepherd – – 1/2 miniature german, 1/2 shetland sheep dog and she had a marvelous demeanor.
Through the ages Jewish people have owned dogs–for guarding the sheep and other farm animals. Have you ever owned a dog? I grew up with them as we grew up on a farm. We had all kinds–Shephers, collies, mutts, boxers, Belgian shepherds, labradors, partial dalmations etc. I absolutely LOVE dogs. They gave me much happiness growing up in a situation that was painful and horrible. This is why they use dogs to visit the elderly in nursing homes, sick children who may or may not recover from a debilitating illness. The ONLY reason that we don’t have a dog now (in the heart of Brooklyn) is because no one is home all day. We both work and the kids are in yeshiva all day. Not fair to leave a people animal alone like that. I feel bad leaving my parrotkeet alone all day. By the way–Adam HaRishon named the dog appropriately–if you take away the nekudos under the word kelev and add a shva and tzeirei you have the word–kilev–like the heart. That is what a dog is–the heart of his master. Everyone should have nachas from their children and grandchildren, but it is heartwarming to have a dog put his chin on your lap and want a scratch behind the ears–ahh peacefulness.
Sissel, beautifully written. Also, they love to play, and they understand the concept of playing. When their owner comes home they bark and jump for joy.
Dovid Hamelech had a royal dog kennel.
sissel613, very well said. Not to mention Dogs are also used to sniff explosives and detect epilepsy. An animal that is able to help the blind see, sniff out drugs and explosives, as well as warn people before an epileptic seisure is a gift from Hashem . In a hospital I have seen the smiles they bring to the terminally ill.This much more than a “four legged, tail wagging, barking, pooper”.
mikehall, you are so right.
dogs provide transportation in the arctic, watch our homes and families, find bedbugs, detect cancer, find landmines, find earthquake victims under piles of rubble, provide companionship for autistic kids, etc., all without complaint and with only the expectation of any reward except a bit of food and some human affection. And, when they get that food and affection, they’re invariably grateful.
not to mention surving in the military
Saying that one should give the money to tzedakah instead of buying a dog is ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about paint or a black hat?
some people say no others say yes.
Parenthetically, if Heaven wants you to have a dog, you will get a dog. You have very little control over anything life other than how you respond to a situation.
As a mater of fact, Menachem Begin and his family were adopted by a stray dog while he was hiding from the British. The dog barked whenever British soldiers or police were near the house.
Excellence,
Wonderful response. You could probably use that response in every single thread in this coffee room.
Avi K -that proves nothing about whether or not one should get a dog as a pet, although it is an interesting story. David Hamelech’s life was saved by a spider, but I never heard of anyone using that as a proof that he should get a spider as a pet.
I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but personally, I don’t think that people should get dogs as pets because some of us are scared of dogs, and for good reason. They bite and bark at people. I have been threatened by dogs many times, and even had a dog stick his teeth in me!! It was very scary!!
Excellence, in that regard, how do dogs differ from coffee makers?
One is a dog, one is a coffee maker…
lilmod, if a dog sank its teeth in you that is not exactly a good indication. You should have had enough Torah learning and mitzvos that the dog should have been even a bit respectful. The fact it had no fear of you…
Hmmm…
Sefer Kav Hayashar tells of an incident during the time of the Arizal where a woman did adultery and when the adulterer man died he came back as a dog and tried very hard to get inside her house. The pious husband kept hitting it and driving it away. One day he forgot to lock the door properly. The ugly looking dog leaped in and found the cheating wife in bed. Fell upon her and bit her repeatedly until they heard her shouting from the Arizal’s house.
Perhaps that dog had an issue with you in some way? Dogs just don’t touch any person.
Be that as it may, a contrite heart and mitzvos will always protect a person and change a decree for the better. Nothing to worry about! Reading the Chofetz Chaim each morning is excellent par excellence, especially the new Israel Book Shop publication one.
Excellence- lol. That reminds me of the time when I had to get into a building in Israel and there were some Israeli boys-at-risk with a dog sitting by the stairs. When they saw me, they politely moved to the side so I could get past. When they saw that I was still standing there, one of them said, “What are you waiting for? For us to roll out a red carpet?” So I responded, “no, I’m scared of the dog. Do you mind holding it for me?”
So the boy looks at me very seriously, and asks “Do you learn Torah?” So I said, “yes.” So he said, “Don’t you know that the Midrash says that if you have no aveiros, you don’t have to be afraid of animals.” So I said, “but I have aveiros.” So he looks at me shocked, and said “chas v’shalom!”
I thought it was so sad (yet sweet in a way) that he seriously thought that most Frum people don’t have aveiros. Maybe that’s why he went off – because he had been taught that you have to be perfect if you’re Frum.
Btw, he did hold the dog for me so I was able to get into the building.
Excellence -just for the record, it was a guard dog. I was working in a camp and they had gone to some kind of a fair. I had to come late, so I was walking around the fair grounds trying to find my way. Apparently, I walked next to some trailers that were being guarded by guard dogs. A dog (or 2 dogs – i don’t remember) started running after me and stuck his teeth into me. I thought I was about to die, so I said the Shema & he let go.
I guess Torah & Mitzvos do protect you from animals!
He also may have realized that I wasn’t a threat because I was running away, and because thieves don’t usually say the Shema.
how do dogs differ from coffee makers?
Dogs are notoriously bad at making coffee.
I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but personally, I don’t think that people should get dogs as pets because some of us are scared of dogs, and for good reason. They bite and bark at people. I have been threatened by dogs many times, and even had a dog stick his teeth in me!! It was very scary!!
So everyone has to accommodate their homes to you and your fears?
The Wolf
“So everyone has to accommodate their homes to you and your fears?”
If they keep their dogs in their homes at all times, it would be one thing. I was talking about people who let their dogs out without leashes, and then their dogs actively threaten me. That should be illegal. I wonder if it is.
The wild dogs (coyotes?) in EY are much safer (even though they look scary) because they don’t threaten people – they ignore them.
I was talking about people who let their dogs out without leashes, and then their dogs actively threaten me. That should be illegal. I wonder if it is.
That varies from community to community. Certainly many places have leash laws in public.
The Wolf
In any case, illegal or not, I find that in most communities where people own dogs there are dogs out on the street w/o leashes. People have been bitten – it’s not an unrealistic fear.
lilmod ulelamaid – thats why im scared of dogs never gotten bitten thank G-d but want to make sure that i NEVER do and take extra precaution but dogs are adorable.
In any case, illegal or not, I find that in most communities where people own dogs there are dogs out on the street w/o leashes. People have been bitten – it’s not an unrealistic fear.
I didn’t say it was unrealistic. I was questioning whether or not everyone else has to adjust their reality to accommodate your fear.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings – they have to be considerate not to scare me with their dog.
– Sparkly with glitters and glue
I have been bitten by other people’s children who were walking without leashes.
RebYidd23 – haha…
-Sparkly with glitters and glue
lilmod ulelamaid, as soon as it barks you’re supposed to say
“???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????”.
Avi K- I do that!!! Automatic instinct! I say Tehillim too. Years ago, when my brother was young, I heard him telling my mother that I am so scared of dogs that I make a bracha whenever I pass by one safely. I was like, “huh?” Turned out he heard me mumbling the above possuk and he assumed I was making a bracha!!
Once when I was with my brother, a dog started barking, and I got very scared. He reassured me by telling me that “barking dogs don’t bite.” He happens to be extremely knowledgeable so I figured he knew what he was talking about, and I calmed down. But then he added, “well, it can’t do two things with its mouth at one time, can it?”
Avi beat me to it. I was about to quote a very similar pasuk. Even if wild street dogs come bounding toward a person, say the pasuk calmly, casually — watch as they suddenly veer away.
Lilmod ulelamaid, the question is whether or not the dog knows that.
WolfishMusings – they have to be considerate not to scare me with their dog.
Oh…. and if I’m afraid of redheads, does every person have to dye their hair?
Bottom line… it’s your fear, you get over it. The world does not have to accommodate itself to you by banning dogs.
The Wolf
“Even if wild street dogs come bounding toward a person, say the pasuk calmly, casually — watch as they suddenly veer away.”
Excellence, apparently, i’m not on as high a level as you, because they don’t do that for me.
Wolfish – if it’s a realistic fear, the rest of the world does have to accommodate. Likewise, if redheads really were dangerous, they would have to be kept off the streets.
Wolfish – if it’s a realistic fear, the rest of the world does have to accommodate. Likewise, if redheads really were dangerous, they would have to be kept off the streets.
Dogs are not really dangerous. The vast majority of people manage to get through their day without being disturbed (let alone bitten) by a dog. You are in far more danger from other people than from a dog any day of the week. The fact that you are afraid of them does not make them dangerous.
The Wolf
people have fear of Closed Spaces, Fear of Open Space, Fear of Flying , Fear of High Places
Just because you have a fear , doesnt mean everyone else has to accomodate
Avi K – even if i may be scared i dont start saying pasukim thats the next level of being scared.
WolfishMusings – that is true. i never said to get rid of all dogs i think their adorable and scary.
-Sparkly with glitters and glue
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