Should A Pauper Be Thrown Out of Town?

Syag,

As a suggestion, yes. As an excuse not to support him, it’s, well, an excuse.

Al pi din, we should even hire people to run before his wagon. Allowing someone to stay in the community where he is comfortable is a valid form of “l’fi k’vodo”, IMO.

zd: The Halacha is that if a rich man living on Park Avenue can no longer afford his rent, the community is obligated to pay his rent with Tzedakah.

here we go again with the hyperbole. no one is suggesting to throw a pauper out of town. NO ONE.

zahavasdad, sarcasm in good humor, i’m all for; your sarcasm, besides being unfunny, is so out of place. your example is also completely off base. perhaps you missed the halacha that we are m’chuyav to support someone in the manner in which THEY ARE USED TO, not in which they choose to. this is halacha, not a con.

that being said, suggesting that OOT is much cheaper to live, is a consideration that many would see as being very valid. obviously the original thread was talking about someone who does not want to be collecting tzedaka. therefore, in that case, i do think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest considering moving OOT.

The favorite food in my house is Sushi, We dont eat Gefiltle Fish on Shabbos. We eat Sushi and not California rolls either, Usually Yellow Tails. Only the best in my house

For Kiddish Any Domestic Wines are Assur in my house, especially wines from New York. We only drink imported wine from usually Italy but sometimes France.

For Motzei we eat whole wheat Organic Challas.

For the Main course on Shabbos we usually go a little easy and have Roast Lamb Chops. Chicken is banned from my house

We are also a bit of a little drunks around here and ALWAYS have Johnny Walker Blue.

I am glad to know that if anything would happen to my income you would continue to support me in my cullinary tastes

When people cannot afford the tuition in a fancy upscale Yeshivah, or even for their children’s higher education, if they cannot get a scholarship, they need to look for a less pricey place to send them. I don’t think a poor person (myself included) is ENTITLED to live where he wants and expect others to financially enable him to do so. But to actually tell someone to move someplace cheaper (unless he asks for an aitzah), seems very harsh.

There is mefurash S”A or Rama in hilchos tzadaka that says that we don’t ask a pauper to sell his house and move to a cheaper neighborhood. I’m not in front of a shulchan aruch but I’m sure others can find it pretty easily and quote it properly.

I asked this question when I found out that Har Nof has a nice sized keren tzedaka for residents.

Moving, for starters, can be expensive. Losing ones job to relocate, probably foolish. Lengthening commuting time/increasing the need for a car, costly. Losing (figuratively) family that helps out with babysitting, moral support etc. priceless. Unsolicited advice: never mind…

shinina: Like the screenname.

i live in an OOT community. by choice. there are many many ppl who move to an OOT community for many reasons, finances being one of them. both the cost of living and the standard of living is drastically different than in NY/NJ area, where i’m from.

oot is not moving to a desert. yes, most of us dont have family here, but the community becomes our family, and my friends become my sisters. AND, if anyone were to have financial difficulties here, it would NEVER come to the case where a community member is begging on the street. do we miss family events? all the time. we go in whenever we can. in an OOT community, you can buy a 3-4 bedroom house for about 140-180k, depending on the size. some might consider that a starter house with 3-5 kids, and when they need it and/or can afford it, they move to a bigger house or renovate. as for kosher food products, some are more than NY/NJ, some less, some the same. ppl are moving out of town in droves because of the high cost of living in NY/NJ. i miss my family and friends, but i would never move back. i cannot fathom how i could afford it.

A person is obligated to live as simply as possible in order to avoid tkaing tzedaka Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 255:1). Thus, if someone is liivng in an expensive house he should sell it and even live in a small rental apartment. If he is unwilling the community is only obligated to defray his expenses if the paupers are few in relation to their numbers and wealth so as not to deplete the public treaury (Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 250:4-5). Of course, if the community is wealthy the best thing would be to use their connections to find him a job similar to his previous one or set him up in business (Shulchan Aruch 249:7 and Shach seif katan 7). If this means selling his house and moving into a rental to raise the capital it would seem that he is obligated to do so,

Avi K:

Look up the mishna in peah 8:8, which says that we do not force a person to sell their house to receive charity. This is brought down lehalacha in the tur and beis yosef in 253, and finally brought down by the shach in 253:6

uneeq:

Is the Halacha that a community must pay a man’s mortgage or rent (regardless how high it is) with Tzedaka funds or is the Halacha that a community must give Tzedaka to pay the basic necessities (food, etc.) to a man with a home, without asking him to sell his home (or rent less expensive elsewhere) to raise funds himself for his basic necessities? (IOW, is the Tzedaka being given to pay for him to keep his home or to pay for his food.)

Uneeq,

Your lashon of ???? ???? ?????? puts you in the company of Reb Moshe and other great poskim.

I’m glad to know that you disagree with the halacha (in determining that it is “not a very good use of limited Tzedakah money.”), zsdad.

DY

Its one thing if a family member foots the bill, Sort of like a parent paying the childs rent or the parent or sibling paying the lexus lease, that is a little different. A parent may even go into debt to pay their childrens mortgage or rent

I am talking about there is a finite amount of money available for Tzadekah. If you add up all the potential Tzadekah money available from all orthodox jews and also add in money from sympathetic non-religious jews you will get a number. Whatever that number is I dont know, If you go going to ask people to pay peoples mortgages on houses on Bedford Ave, another Tzadekah is not going to get the money. Perhaps a Yeshiva will not get that donation to pay a rebbe. perhaps a Shul will not be able to make a repair. Perhaps a Kiruv organization will not be able to run an event to attract people. Perhaps Tomche Shabbos will not be able to feed a family on a shabbos. Etc

I don’t know the Halacha well but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around what I am hearing. If a big chunk of tzedaka money can go to feeding 100 people and providing clothing, shabbos meals etc, is the money better spent paying one previously rich mans high mortgage? I don’t understand this. I don’t see what is wrong about someone having to down size their life. When I was in 5th grade we moved to a smAller house because the utilities were just too high as were properly taxes. We didn’t ask anyone to foot the bill.

Zahavasdad and MorahRach,

I agree that there is better use for the money. But it still is valid tzeddakah.

I’m nor sure I agree that there’s a finite number of tzeddakah dollars. I doubt everyone gives 20% or even 10% of their income, and even a higher percentage is often allowed (see the Chofetz Chaim’s Ahavas Chessed for specifics), so often, if a particular cause arises, more money is distributed than would have been otherwise.

I’m sure some tzeddakos lost out because of the amount of money given out to Sandy victims. I have no doubt, though, that the sum of tzeddakah money given out will still be more than had there not been such a need.

Similarly, some money given to support a certain lifestyle would have otherwise been spent on more basic needs, but some would have simply remained in the philanthropists’ accounts.

It’s not as if I/we are saying to let them fend for themselves on the street. But there are thousands of tzedakas that need our money. Every month my husband and I give maaser money to a Jewish orphanage in israel, chickens for shabbos, tomchei shabbos where we love, and to one of his rebbes yeshivas. We could possibly fall under the category of not having to give based on our incomes since we are really struggling but we give because we know there are people who are in need more than us, and Hashem will always take care of us. I would much rather my money go to people who actually need it for food, clothing, yeshivas in need of funds etc. I can’t understand an argument saying that it is better for the money to go to one persons mortgage so they can continue their lavish lifestyle.

ZD I’m in 100% agreement