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“A friend of mine and I every week take a stack of index cards and write on them in large letters “Practice Modesty,” and when on the train or walking in the city, we’ll quickly hand these to a pritzusdik-dressed woman, whether frum-looking or not (goyim get the English, and frum-seeming women dressed immodestly get the card which says “Practice Tznius”). We have never been attacked or given a hard time. People take them, and G-d willing, they hold on to it and think about what it says. “
Rebdoniel, you and your friend would be wiser to stop looking for Prutzahs in the street. You might get an undercover cop by mistake, who thinks you are hitting on her. Leave the index cards at home. It is very presumptuous if you, ESPECIALLY if they are Goyim.
“A friend of mine and I every week take a stack of index cards and write on them in large letters “Practice Modesty,” and when on the train or walking in the city, we’ll quickly hand these to a pritzusdik-dressed woman, whether frum-looking or not (goyim get the English, and frum-seeming women dressed immodestly get the card which says “Practice Tznius”). We have never been attacked or given a hard time. People take them, and G-d willing, they hold on to it and think about what it says.”
I think that’s a great idea. But I would limit it to yidden. I wouldn’t be worried about what oomis is, no one would mistake it for that and besides it isn’t against the law, but why waste your time on goyim when you could do so much good amongst yidden? Keep up the good work and hatzlocho.
I don’t believe you should be looking at women, talking to women, or handing things to women! When I go to a store where there is a chasidish or yeshivish man at the register he puts my change on the counter and doesn’t even drop it into my hand.
If there is that much pritzus on the train and in the city, maybe you should consider that you are traversing in the wrong sevivah and go elsewhere!!!! Give the cards to your wives and find something else to do in your spare time.
I agree, it would be preferable if women distributed these cards.
We do have women who partake in this mitzvah. These days, you don’t have to seek prutzahs- they are just there wherever you turn, wherever you go. I do not look inappropriately; when the problem presents itself, I nonchalantly hand a card, and for this, there is no halachic problem (Reb Moshe, I believe, holds that instead of shaking a woman’s hand professionally, it is preferable to hand a business card.) Change is a different story than a 3*5 index card, which is bigger than most business cards. With change, you are depositing coins into the hand of someone of the opposite gender, which is ossur, but with handing a card to someone, they are simply grabbing the other end of it, otherwise, Reb Moshe wouldn’t have suggested men hand females business cards in lieu of handshaking- no issur involved. This is somethign I do when I am in Manhattan or on the trains; I don;t go out and do this for the sake of it. I try to the best of my ability to avoid makomei tumah v’pritzus, but there is not always the option of controlling who goes on the tain, etc. I always try to sit as far away from such individuals as soon as possible. Tznius is an aspect of morality, and therefore, goyim too have to be tzniusdik. R’ Yitzchok Dubovick, a gaon in inyonei sheva mitzvos, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who was perhaps the leading gadol in these inyonim, held this way, and I have upon whom to rely in this (see the sicha of the Rebbe from Shavuos 5747 on Bnei Noach and Nezirus).
I don’t believe Reb Moshe would approve of his words being used in this instance. HE said it was preferable to give your business card in lieu of shaking a woman’s hand. He didn’t suggest that You walk around handing your business cards to women!!!!!! So please don’t twist his words to serve your purpose or to defend your position it just doesn’t hold water.
I am a woman and I don’t like the sevivah in Manhattan so I choose to go there as little as possible. I drive rather than take the train as much as possible so I have choices and so do you. And if I thought a man dressed improperly because his pants were too tight and nothing was left to the imagination, or his underwear was showing I certainly would not hand HIM a card that said “dress modestly”! It would not be MY business to approach any male. So looking at it from a male/female female/male perspective I hold firm and stand firm in by belief that it is not your place or any man’s place to look, approach, speak to or hand women anything especially when they are not dressed appropriately or have any business involving your family or parnasah.
I never said the Igros Moshe addressed this practice.
What I did say was that he held that it was not an issur of negiah when handing someone a card, unlike handing somebody change. I am touching upon the finer points of what constitutes negiah. You can challenge my whole enterprise, but don’t turn my words around to say that this practice is addressed in any responsa literature. Handing someone of the opposite sex a card, pamphlet, flyer, etc. is perfectly permissible for the reason that someone is grabbing the opposite end of the document and there is no negiah.
Neither is “dropping” change into someone’s hand. At that instance only one person is holding the change at a time. So why did you bring that mashal and the correlation? It doesn’t fit the situation and neither does men handing “tznius” cards to women. It is not a man’s inyan it is something that should be left to women.
On the other hand if you would “PLEASE” hand those cards to men who wear those tight pants or whose underwear is showing, that would truly be a mitzva!!!!
A friend of mine and I every week take a stack of index cards and write on them in large letters “Practice Modesty,” and when on the train or walking in the city, we’ll quickly hand these to a pritzusdik-dressed woman, whether frum-looking or not (goyim get the English, and frum-seeming women dressed immodestly get the card which says “Practice Tznius”). We have never been attacked or given a hard time. People take them, and G-d willing, they hold on to it and think about what it says.
This doesn’t sit very well with me. I understand the thinking behind it, and maybe I can even force myself to cards being handed to frum women, but Jews are not especially loved by the rest of the world. Why go in their face to advertise that we are different than them?
Additionally, I’m not someone who wears short skirts etc, but I don’t think I would appreciate being handed a card that said “practice Tznius” from someone off the street.
In principle, I believe rebdoniel’s approach is wonderful and a great idea. It isn’t in your face. These days there are all kinds of people handing out all kinds of flyers, from suit stores, barbers, and from the red light district. So an idea like rebdoniel isn’t going to offend too many recipients, considering what else they get. And it just may work for some people. Even if 1 in 100 thinks twice afterwards, its mission accomplished. Even goyim are required to be tznius, which is actually common sense.
So right, yes but is it appropriate for frum men to do it?
EDITED
Thank you, so right, for explaining the gist of what I am doing. You hit the nail on the head. A gut yohr and a gut voch.
I didn’t have the patience to read all 6 pages so i don’t know if i missed this point. what about the frum stores and manufactures that produce and sell these clothing. there is one store that comes to mind that consistantly has a mannequin in the window that has a skirt that is above the knee. where are the
rabbonim to tell the klal not to shop in this very successful store? What about the stores that produce their own line of clothing and the sizes are so tiny that you could use an adult medium on your average 6 year old. Girls want to fit in and look like their friends. the frum manufactures and stores have to step up to the plate and produce stylish clothing that are tznusdik for all sizes.
I was in a restaurant on Coney Island Avenue the other night and was shocked by what I saw. I don’t have all the answers to these problems, but B’ezras HaShem, forums like this can yield solutions that will take us in the right direction and will stimulate discussion.
In OUR neighborhood one of the Rabbonim still pats himself on the back claiming that he is responsible for chasing Victoria Secrets out of town. Literally he thinks he is responsible for closing the store because he had a huge campaign againts the store and what he called the pritzus they were displaying in the window. Now the other store that has been here for many years was not spoken about at all, just VS.
We have a frum dress shop here who has a few branches in other frum communities as well. She sells Wedding gowns and other upper class designs. Her windows keep displaying low cut, sleeveless and other non tzniusdik looks on her mannequins and the Rabbi didn’t say anything to her even though in her other store windows she is more careful what she puts in. Not one Rav complained to her that she should be and could be a role model for the young women in the community by showing her creations in a tzniusdik mode. So why VS, after all they are selling undergarments and believe me they were extremely mild in what they put in the window kal v’chomer what this frum lady put in the window was extremely revealing knowing that she knows better. So who is she trying to attract or what is the message she is trying to relay?
Even more so, why bring in low cut and sleeveless gowns when you are selling to a frum community? Why not have the manufacturer build them up for you before shipping them to your store?
rebdoniel, I understand the gist of what your doing, I just don’t believe it is right and think it is better left to your wife and other women to do. On the other hand if you would address the dress code of the men in the city, that is another problem that needs solving.
Aries, it sounds like we possibly live in the same neighborhood. But if in fact we are talking about the same VS, the store was displayed in a mini mall/center in the very front window on the street. Yeshivah boys were bugging their eyes out as they passed by. it was not appropriate for a family-centered neighborhood to have that so “in our faces.”. The other store is merely a dress shop with possibly untzniusdig gowns by our standards, but it is not the same thing as looking at lingerie on mannequins, as was the case with VS.
Many intelligent things have been said by intelligent tzanuas on this thread.
I will take their respectful hint; they have said all that needs to be said. I will their respectful hint and get lost.
If anyone has an interesting shaala please start another thread about.
PS: Reb Doniel, I looking the Klausenberger Rebbe’s seforim there, and didn’t see anything.
aries2756:
“Putting on lipstick and mascara is also assur on Shabbos but I see a lot of women who are definitely wearing fresh lipstick on Shabbos. Is it my place to go over and tell them that they are not allowed to do that? Absolutely not! Because for one thing it is not my business. For another thing, maybe they really didn’t learn it or didn’t apply what they learned to this issue, make-up. And thirdly, if I told them and they continued to do it, it is even a worse aveirah and I don’t want to be a part of that. Here is another example. I have been to the manicure spa many times when I have seen frum women in a rush get their hands and feet done at the same time by two different technicians. Now I was taught (yes in Kallah class by a very machmir teacher) that two people are not allowed to work on you at the same time, it is assur. Only in the case of a niftar or nifteres is more than one person allowed to work on them. That is why you might hear a parent reprimand if they are buttoning a child’s coat not to help them, only one person should do it. So back to my example, when the ladies want to rush me out and come at me two at a time I tell them I am not dead yet and only one of them can work on me at a time. They remember that when I come in but they ask me why the other religious ladies don’t say that to them. Is it my job to tell the other ladies they are wrong? Maybe they were never told what I was told. My mother would say “zei nisht gut’s farzorger”.
Ther is a passuk that says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”: “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”. However, if you could have stopped an aveira and CH”V did not do so, the aveira goes onto your cheshbon as well. If you see somebody doing something wrong, you are mechuyav to correct them. Now, obviously this must be done in a way that will not push them away, but first and foremost it must be done. Li’mashal, if you saw somebody unintentionally drinking poison, would you say “it is not my business” and walk away?
This whole “mind your own business concept” is of western origin and completely foreign to yiddishkeit. We say “kol yisrael areivim zeh la’zeh”, in both gashmiyus and ruchniyus. There is a famous mashal of a person who is on a cruise ship and hears a loud sound in the room next door. He walks into the room and sees a man drilling a hole into the floor! He screams “What are you doing, you’ll kill us all!” The man calmly replies “Excuse me, but this is my room, and I have the right to do whatever I want here!”
very true mw13. some of us have been saying this all along.
Klausenberger? I had said a sicha of the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s.
OH! The late Lubavitcher Rebbe! Why didn’t you say so?
Oh well. Nevermind.
I don’t believe that any gedolim, other than the Lubavitcher Rebbe, in past years, has addressed issues of morality and sheva mitzvos for goyim. I can provide the source, if you’d like. The sicha is probably on the internet, although I am unsure.
(I am not stam a Lubavitcher, by the way. However, it is the Chassidus with which I am most familiar, and I have tremendous respect for the Rebbe, whom I believe to have been one of the gedolei hador).
of course this is not the main issue but when the girls see thier teachers in short dresses and abnormally big earings what do you expect the students to think.
Rebdoniel, i don’t want to keep beating the same dead horse, but according to your own logic, then handing out your cards to people who most likely will just ignore you and throw it away is pointless because then you take on their aveiros. In addition you keep ignoring the fact that MY point is than you as a man should concentrate ONLY on men and stay away from women!
Li’mashal, if you saw somebody unintentionally drinking poison, would you say “it is not my business” and walk away?”
Not a good example, because the person unknowingly about to drink poison will presumably be VERY glad you stopped him or her from doing so. Not necessarily so with the tznius police doing their thing. There is no comparison between the reality of mamesh saving someone’s life, versus believing you are saving his or her neshama. Most people you would accost in that way would be very annoyed with you,and think you are some nut-case walking the street looking for sinners. If you do not believe that I am correct, have you ever been stopped by Evangelical Christians determined to “save” your soul?
If you could only save one person – either save Reuvein from drinking poison, thus saving his guf, OR save Dina’s neshomo from her wearing a lifetime of short skirts, UNQUESTIONABLY better to save her neshomo than his guf.
Even if she wouldn’t be wise enough to appreciate that.
Oomis,
Would you say that the neviim were all “nut-cases” (r”l)?
They seem to fulfill your criteria for such a vague category.
We are responsible for one another, perhaps especially in terms of observance and spirituality.
Ther is a passuk that says “ho’chaich tocheach es amisecha v’lo sisah alov chait”: “rebuke you shall rebuke my people, and there will not be a sin on you”.
Not really related to the direct conversation but the second half should be translated, “and you shall not bear a sin because of him”. As in, if a person will hurt someone by giving rebuke, do not give rebuke at all! May be why some people are convinced “rebbetzins” should go over to people in short skirts and give them as much mussar as possible.
Helpful
If you save someones guf you save their neshamah as well use logic!
Rebdoniel
Your idea of handing out cards is absurd and highly inappropriate. Frankly I’m surprised you haven’t been beaten up yet by some girls boy friend. Either way I don’t know of one mainstream Orthodox Rav who would say it is ok for a man to hand out cards about Tznius to women. The very act lacks Tznius and I can’t imagine what heter there would be to expose yourself to pritzus and to look at women just to give them cards. You are exposing yourself to pritzus. You will do more good by watching your eyes. You don’t know what a zchus it is for a man to watch his eyes in this Dor where the pritzus is everywhere.
Do what I do walk with my eyes looking down. Even doing that occassionally when I do look up I am bothered by what I see non Jewish girls go out naked. I frankly can’t understand what ben torah would willingly expose himself to the pritzus out there.
i know this is slightly of-topic (even though it’s actually the starting topic), but about the short skirts. i really think it’s a big problem with ladies and teenagers but there’s probably very little we can do. what we can do though, is START WITH THE CHILDREN!! the little girls! DO NOT dress your three-year-olds in proper mini-skirts, DO always tell the littlest ones how beautiful they’ll look in tights when then they turn three, DO point out tzniusdig beautiful women in the street and comment on them, DO NOT turn them off from tznius from the very start!! i don’t know what we’re all complaining about when we likely made the problem in the first place! i know your three-year-old may look very sweet in her little black dress made specially for her size – BUT IT’S NOT!!!
emoticon613
Now thats a refreshing and intelligent thought. Maybe thats what we are missing, starting on the girls from a young age. I like it.
oomis1105: I never said there should be a “tznius police”, nor did I suggest that anybody should “accost” anybody else in any way. Actually, I specifically said that giving mussar “must be done in a way that will not push them away”. You have the right to disagree with me: but please, first take the time to make sure you understand what I’m saying! Obviously mussar must be given with saichel, in a way it will be accepted. Ie, start a conversation with the person and then mention “oh, is that fresh lipstick you’re wearing? I was always under the impression that that was a halachic shailah, but of course I’m no Rav. However, you might want to ask one.”
Helpful: Agreed. However, if somebody doesn’t appreciate the mussar, she won’t listen, and if anything will be less receptive to mussar in the future.
rebdoniel: Good point.
WellInformedYid:
“If you save someones guf you save their neshamah as well use logic!”
Really? If you save somebody’s life you stop them from going to gehinom? Guess my logic is down today.
“I don’t know of one mainstream Orthodox Rav who would say it is ok for a man to hand out cards about Tznius to women.”
Well how many have you asked?
emoticon613: Well said, great point.
mw13
If someones life is in danger or someone is in danger of doing an aveirah you save the persons life. Life comes before everything.
Observing Judaism means keeping the Mitzvos of the Torah.
I hear this all the time:
“Why are you complaining about this sin? What about the sin of so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so?”
The fact that other sins against the Torah are committed does not make the lack of Tznius permissible. These sins obviously need to be dealt with; but the specific issue that is being dealt with in this thread is the serious sin of the lack of Tznius, C”V.
The book, “Daughters of Dignity,” explains the Mitzvah of Tznius from the Torah, the reasons and rewards for Tznius, the consequences and punishments for the lack of Tznius, C”V, and the rules of Tznius.
Eating Kosher is a Mitzvah of the Torah. Shmiras Shabbos is a Mitzvah of the Torah. Tznius is a Mitzvah of the Torah. Period.
its crazy, straight short skirt are back in style, but if i dont wear tight and short i feel yunchy especially when my husband sees other woman and than me. i feel guilty that im not enough good for him. we must stop this! but i really think that ppl dont talk enough if i would tell my friends they would laugh at me. an honorable man must get up and fight it, i think there are many innocent women that would change!(frum men must admire tzniusdig woman and not let their wives go out like that explain them how beautiful they are when their tzniusdig,)
Starting tznius at a young age: it’s being dong right now; they’re called Ateres groups. All my neices go to one.
misterhock i really think your right,(eventhough there are plenty not married girls and woman)you have a very good point!
frum not crum – i know, i was an ateres leader three years ago when it first started. that’s an amazing program.
the problem becomes when the ateres leader’s teaching conflicts with the home teaching and that’s where we run up against a brick wall once again. “but my mother wears this and this” is a common refrain and you can’t tell a kid, well ur mother’s wrong, right?
No you can’t say your mother is wrong, but you can say “maybe she didn’t realize”. It is the same thing when the parents allow certain things and the Rebbe says NO and the child tells the parents my Rebbe said we are not allowed to do that.
Goyim follow “styles,” which are “in” one day, and “out” the next day, and which they design to be provocative to men.
Jews follow the Torah MiSinai, which does not change, and which was given to us by Hashem, Who does not change. Tznius is a Mitzvah of the Torah. Period.
When I was in elementary school, I had a teacher who made chumras into halacha. As in absolute if you don’t follow it you are going to burn. This included things like “wearing skirts to your ankles is totally assur!” and “tights must be worn at all time!”
When anyone mentioned their Rav held differently, she would scorn the Rabbi.
Kids see this and learn to disrespect their teachers.
That was a tough year – we clashed in many ways.
ANONYM613, then please explain fashion trends like streimels and black hats. Are those Toras Moshe M’Sinai?
I love when people try to pretend that Jews didn’t dress with the fashion of their time. Altered, sure, but throughout history Jews have always adopted the dress of local cultures. We aren’t all wearing long robes and sandals.
So is kibud av’vem, so is not to have kinah, so is al tignov, so are the other 7 which are the top 10. So I think we have taken this discussion to the limit and have made it sound like the worst aveirah sitting on the shoulders of women which it is not. There are many mitzvas in the Torah and WE are all not perfect and WE don’t get to point our fingers at others for their lack of adherence and WE are all at fault somehow and somewhere.
So as others mentioned before WE all have a mitzvah to work on ourselves BEFORE we point fingers at others and point out their errors, as long as there are areas in our own selves that need improvement we have no right to point fingers on others imperfections.
MW13, my “accost” remark was directed at the person who has already admitted he and his good friend, the other tznius police officer, are already DOING just that. If you thought I meant you, you were mistaken, and I am sorry that it caused you discomfort.
Is tand by my opinion. And btw, I would not tell someone who was ALREADY wearing lipstick (and how do you know it is not the new Shabbos lipstick powder?) what you think the halacha is. I would wait until another time when it is NOT Shabbos, and then simply talk about the Shabbos-approved lipsticks (in a casually brought up way), and how pretty they are, and how nice it is that someone came up with a way to wear lipstick on Shabbos that did not have any halachic problems associated with it. She will get the message, if she is smart.
WellInformedYid:
“If someones life is in danger or someone is in danger of doing an aveirah you save the persons life. Life comes before everything.”
In 610/613 cases, correct. However, that certainly does not mean that by saving somebody’s life you have saved their neshama.
ANONYM613: Well said, great point.
SJSinNYC: Streimels are a head covering worn by Chassidic men, and black hats are a head covering worn by Litvish men and some Chassidic men. Please explain how streimels and black hats violate the laws of Tznius for women.
My post specifically mentioned “styles which Goyim design to be provocative to men.”
The question is: does the style conform to the rules of the Torah?
aries2756: The fact that we all have issues that we have to work on does not negate the fact that Tznius is a Mitzvah of the Torah and must be fulfilled by all females. It is not an issue of “finger-pointing,” and it is not an excuse to neglect the Mitzvah.
Per the book, “Daughters of Dignity” —
Tznius, the Protection of the Jewish Woman; Our Royal Uniform; the Essence of a Woman.
Commandments of Tznius: “Your camp shall be holy.” “You should emulate Hashem’s ways.” (from Sefer Devorim)
“Be holy, for I, Hashem, am holy.” (from Sefer Vayikra)
“You should not follow the customs of the secular world.” “Do not cause others to stumble.”
Rewards for Tznius: Presence of the Shechina; Protection against Harm; Protection from the Evil Eye; Respect. Kedushah rests on a Tzenuah; the Shechina dwells in the home of a Tzenuah; a Tzenuah generates Kedushah in the world; Modesty elevates a Person; Acceptance of Tefilos. A married woman who strengthens her level of Tznius will cause her husband’s level of Kedushah to be elevated. A woman who is modest can merit to have children, even if naturally she is unable to conceive.
“The level of righteousness of a child is dependent on the mother’s level of modesty.”
A Tzenuah will merit Techiyas HaMaysim; A Tzenuah’s Neshama will be clothed in beautiful clothing in the World-To-Come; A modest Woman will be praised by her husband, children, and all of Klal Yisroel. The higher the level of her Tznius, the more she is praised.
Consequences of Immodesty: It drives away the Shechinah, causes poverty, causes calamities (Lo Alaynu), empowers our enemies, cheapens a person’s self-image, permeates impurity, causes others to sin, prevents acceptance of prayers.
This is endorsed by these Rabbonim, Shlita:
Rabbi Yaakov Perlow, Rabbi Binyomin Eisenberger, Rabbi Usher Eckstein, Rabbi Yisroel Dov Webster, Rabbi Shmuel HaLevi Wosner, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach, the Vishnitzer Rebbe, the Alexander Rebbe, the Belzer Rebbe, the Sadiger Rebbe, Rabbi Michoel Yehuda Lefkowitz, Rabbi Pinchas Scheinberg.
Any more questions?
ANONY613, I was referencing this “Goyim follow “styles,” which are “in” one day, and “out” the next day”
Jews always kept up with fashion trends. Always. We kept up with colors, styles etc. Jewish men and women. Saying we shouldn’t be “in style” is ridiculous and will not cause anyone to be more tzanua. Being “the tznius” person already has a bad reputation as being “the neb” – add in the requirement to be out of fashion?
FWIW, I don’t dress fashionably. But most women want to.
As mw13 posted above:
“Life comes before everything: In 610/613 cases, correct.”
The other 3 cases are the 3 sins for which a Jew allows himself or herself to be killed rather than transgress, of which one is Giluy Aroyos.
SJSinNYC, no one says that a person has to dress like a “neb” to be Tznius-dik.
In the book, “Daughters of Dignity,” it is written:
“The Yetzer Harah tries to convince us that dressing B’Tznius connotes dressing drably. This is a grave misconception. . . A woman who dresses modestly, yet not respectfully, can cause a great Chilul Hashem, since she is projecting the Mitzvah of Tznius as unappealing and undesirable. Thus, those who see her will claim, ‘Look how unpleasant this woman appears. If this is what Tznius is all about, then I don’t want to dress modestly.'”
“Modest clothing and behavior is the epitomy of beauty. As it is written, ‘Jewish daughters are beautiful (Nedarim 66),’ for their outer modest appearance reflects their inner qualities.
Conversely, the secular world’s concept of beauty comes from the opposite end of the spectrum. Their styles are designed to spread immorality in the world. How can their opinion of beauty dictate our taste? How can we value what they think is beautiful?”
All that is being said is that the clothing should conform to Tznius, which is a Mitzvah, before conforming to what is “in style,” or “in fashion.”
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