- This topic has 300 replies, 66 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
movingmountains you are so way off!!! Being a better Jew constitutes women dressing betznius!!!!! You can’t pick and choose which halachos you are going to follow!!! These are clear halachos not minhagim!!! I wish you a better year this year, you should have an open mind and be able to handle your inner challenges!!!
SJS- if your rav permits you to not wear stockings then for you its fine. I think though that Mr. 80 was commenting on tzniyus in general, which I think portrays tzniyus beautifully.
Also I think in scenario 1 the man definitely was a contributing factor in being robbed.
Mod80, I disagree that the man is responsible. It doesn’t matter what I have, its not your right to take it away. I just may be more likely to lose out in some way.
nevermind, try and read it again with no agenda. i didnt say he had a right to take away what is someones elses. i said exactly 100% the opposite of that.
read this: THE ROBBER IS 100% RESPONSIBLE!!!!!
THE FACT THAT HE WAS TEMPTED IN NO WAY, NO WAY AT ALL REDUCES HIS RESPONSIBILITY. HE IS RESPONSIBLE 100%!!!!!! HE IS EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE IN BOTH CASES
the victim also bears responsibility because he acted negligently, BUT THIS IN NO WAY, IN NO WAY, NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT REDUCES THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ROBBER!!!!
Mod80, I can explain why in every scenario you could fathom, the victim can be negligent in some way.
But I will concede to your overall point. Because I understand what you are saying 🙂
SJS, the Chofetz Chaim didn’t have semich (until he was an old man.) Was he not a “Rabbi” because he lacked it, despite him being a Rosh Yeshiva and author of the Sefer Chofetz Chaim and Mishna Berura? There is no such thing as real semicha anymore. You can be a rabbi, tzaddik, and talmid chochom without semicha, or rasha with semicha.
thank you so much sj
im sorry i expressed my frustration so loudly
myfriend, AFAIK, in order to truly be a Rabbi, you need smicha.
If everyone is called Rabbi, what distinguishes a true Rabbi?
I can tell you that my BIL, a really good Jew who learns a ton and is very knowledgable is NOT a Rabbi nor does he expect anyone to call him one.
That’s ok Mod80. I know sometimes its really frustrating when people miss your point by nitpicking, even though the point is a decent one.
So the Chofetz Chaim wasn’t a rabbi?
I think we can all agree that men have strong ta’avos and the nisyonos that go along with it. OK. That much is clear.
Can men understand that women also have nisyonos? A woman may feel prettier wearing a shorter skirt or fitted shirt than wearing something else. So just like men have to work on their nisyonos in life, women have to work on theirs.
Bottom line is, after 120, a woman will have to answer for her transgressions, and a man will have to answer for his. Blaming the woman for the man’s weakness really doesn’t get anyone anywhere.
He wasn’t “ordained” as a Rabbi. No. As a Rosh Yeshiva, he was probably called Rav though.
I could be wrong but I thought Rabbi was a halachic qualification, not a term to throw around.
You do not need to be called Rabbi to be a tzaddik and extremely learned.
I have no words. I happen not to agree that a woman should have uncovered elbows, but if thats what her Rabbi says, than she is completely allowed to do that. Where does anyone come off judging that? And in Aseres Y’mei Tshuva when we’re all begging for a good year, to judge someone to the nth degree?! There is Middah K’neged Middah in this world. If a competent Rav would say a person can drive on Shabbos, then they are allowed. Same goes with short sleeves. I think some people are getting very caught up on the “letter of the law” and forgetting about the “spirit”.
Time for a commercial break!
This thread has been sponsored by:
THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach’d the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -“Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he,
“‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
Anyway, commercial break is now over. If you’d like to sponsor the new commercial break , please contact the ad department at yeshiva world news. And tell them I sent you.
You know what would solve the problems although nobody would listen to me and Im only half seriously suggesting this and I know that we arent on the Madregah but its just a thought…
Just like yeshivah boys/kollel yungerman and Chasidim have a uniform, why cant girl out of high school also have a basic uniform? Ok I know its very boring and nobody would be maskim but it may actually solve the problem…just saying.
SJSinNYC
The Chofetz Chaim had semicha although he got it later in his life because he needed it when he traveled for his passport to show he had a profession or something like that.
And what if an orthodox rabbi allows his congregants to drive to shul on shabbos and eat in any mcdonalds? Must we quitely respect that and mind our own business?
What did you say? No real orthodox rabbi would allow his congregants to do so? Correct. Nor would such allow uncovered elbows.
To WIY, on why can’t women have a uniform: because they’re wired differently?
But maybe I’m wrong. I suggest your wife spend a year dressing in the “Tznius Cultural Revolution” style (an adaptation of that chic Chinese trend of a generation ago). Forget about how happy she would be. How bout you? And no, discontent on your part wouldn’t indicate some moral failing either.
Hashem did not intend for b’nos Yisrael to wear burkas, or the equivalent.
Moq
Are you moqing (mocking) us? 🙂
Helpful, people treat shok/zroa as this bottom line thing. Its absolutely not! Its a big machlokes in halacha and elbows are one area that some Rabbonim are more meikel on (usually within a tefach of the elbow).
So, don’t blame your hirhurim on them if they are following their rabbonim. Although, I would gather a hot Chani causes more hirhurim than a woman with a shirt sleeve 1″ above her elbow.
tzippi:
I include myself in saying we arent on the madreigah but im pretty sure and correct me if im wrong in Europe in the early 1900’s and certainly earlier most frum women went dressed basically the same way in relatively non flattering clothing. The truth is if all women went that way most men would not mind. A womens beauty is for her husband, she can and should dress up at home not on the street where everyone BUT her husband gets to look at and enjoy her beauty, fashion sense and all that. We live in a very upside-down backwards world where right is wrong and wrong is right and very little is as it should be.
And what if an orthodox rabbi allows his congregants to drive to shul on shabbos and eat in any mcdonalds? Must we quitely respect that and mind our own business?
What did you say? No real orthodox rabbi would allow his congregants to do so? Correct. Nor would such allow uncovered elbows.
Its a sad fact that today everything is up for public discussion, and if someone doesn’t agree with something (debatable) a certain Rav says, the Rav is no longer viewed as a real Rav. If a competent Orthodox Rabbi would say its ok to drive on Shabbos, then yes, it would be ok. Because what a real Rav says, even if its Halachically wrong, becomes Halachically correct, simply by him saying it. Same goes for short sleeves.
Me? Mocking? Certainly not. I am just trying to profit off of this highly logical,
well thought out, sourced ,
emotionless,
purely non-personal,
fascinating,
revealing no insecurities , and merely a healthy self-image inside and out –
debate, containing a great deal of new and exciting, unique ideas for the betterment of mankind and all of Starfleet.
I get 5% if you order that poem from amazon. Is that so bad?
kapusta
“If a competent Orthodox Rabbi would say its ok to drive on Shabbos, then yes, it would be ok. Because what a real Rav says, even if its Halachically wrong, becomes Halachically correct, simply by him saying it. Same goes for short sleeves.”
If a Rabbi says something which is clearly against Halacha like its mutar to drive on shabbos then his competence goes out the window. You are competent until proven otherwise. Making wild irrational or extremely meikil psakim is valid reason for declaring a Rav incompetent. Not every Rav can give a Heter just because he knows a few simanim of shulchon aruch.
Ok kaputsa, you can now become an orthodox rabbi. Orthodox rabbi Avi Weiss so paskened. One can get their female semicha and become a rabba. Its Orthodox rabbi Weiss’ psak. Don’t dare disrespect this orthodox rabbis decision or question it.
And enjoy that cheeseburger.
movingmountains and to all those defending short skirts:
In Two days is yom kippur. A day we stand in judgement, asking Hashem to forgive us on the sins we did the past year, with Hashem’s mercy he will forgive us. This yom hadin reminds us of another Yom Hadin which will happen after 120. If a person relizes he/she is doing somethig wrong, but wont change because a stranger told them off, it implies that the person knows he/she is doing something wrong. Knowing something is wrong but wont change, what will the person answer after 120.
You say people should not look at. There is gemorah Tanis 24a with a story. Someone had a pretty daughter, and one day noticed a boy peeking thru the fence. He asked what are you doing? He replied I wont merit to marry her, at least let me look at her. The father asked Hashem to kill her and she died, because she was making people look at her.
Moq
You seem like quite the creative character. Do you do any writing?
“If a person relizes he/she is doing somethig wrong, but wont change because a stranger told them off,”
See the Ksav V’Hakabbalah on the passuk hocheach tochiach es amisecha. After thoroughly going through and understanding what he writes, perhaps you will rewrite this sentence when you realize that telling someone off, especially some stranger is horrible thing to do and has nothing to do with the mitzvah of tochacha.
I am post hih school and would love a uniform. Not for the reason of tznius but rather due to the issue of not finding clothes that I like. If you don’t wear pencil skirts for the reason being discusseed you are left wwith the pleated skirt you could have bought 5 years ago. Recently I was asked shidduch information about a girl. After being asked how she dresses i told her she is from out of town.. She said so you mean she wears pleated skirts and not straight… I didn’t want to say ” what I meant is that she dresses in tzniusdik way..
If a Rabbi says something which is clearly against Halacha like its mutar to drive on shabbos then his competence goes out the window. You are competent until proven otherwise. Making wild irrational or extremely meikil psakim is valid reason for declaring a Rav incompetent. Not every Rav can give a Heter just because he knows a few simanim of shulchon aruch.
Agreed. A competent orthodox Rabbi would not say it, but it was an example (maybe a little extreme), and intended to bring out a point. Short sleeves is not the same as driving on Shabbos.
Ok kaputsa, you can now become an orthodox rabbi. Orthodox rabbi Avi Weiss so paskened. One can get their female semicha and become a rabba. Its Orthodox rabbi Weiss’ psak. Don’t dare disrespect this orthodox rabbis decision or question it.
And enjoy that cheeseburger.
First, thank you for a great laugh. Second, as I wrote to WIY, the example I used was a little extreme. Sleeves can not be equated with driving on Shabbos IMO.
And I’ll have to wait till I finish my breyers ice cream for the cheeseburger. 😉
“The father asked Hashem to kill her and she died, because she was making people look at her.”
Do any Rishonim or Achronim suggest that fathers of good looking girls adopt this practice? Does the gemara itself suggest that this is a practice to be followed?
(This gemara might be a solution to the so called age gap crisis in shidduchim – kill off a bunch of good looking girls – AZ where are you when we need you?)
About two years ago this time, there was rumor going around about mashiach coming(may he come now). There was a women who called her Rov saying she doesnt want mashiach to come yet because she has nothing Tzniusdik to wear. I hope when mashiach does come everyone has something tzinusdik to wear.
If when you go to Rebbetin Kaniavesky shtichye i would imaging you are going a way a bas yisroel should be dressed thats the rite way the truth. That last thing you want is the rebatzin to make about a comment that the clothing is to short.
“That last thing you want is the rebatzin to make about a comment that the clothing is to short.”
Actually, thats not true. The rebbetzin wont “tell someone off”. She will comment in an appropriate manner that is not attacking and/or degrading. People take mussar from someone like that. Not from people who “tell them off”.
To apushatayid
I agree its wrong for a starnger to tell someome off. The point was a person getting insulted and being defensive about it shows, she realizes she is doing something wrong.
Rishonim Achronim, I have yet to see them saying its a good practice, but the lesson we see, and maybe another lesson we can learn, is that parents should daven that their children will not be nichshal anybody.
In the times of Chazal they would execute someone who continued to publicly dress non tznius after sufficient warning. (See the Chazon Ish for one example of a source.)
“About two years ago this time, there was rumor going around about mashiach coming(may he come now). There was a women who called her Rov saying she doesnt want mashiach to come yet because she has nothing Tzniusdik to wear.”
I think this is an urban legend. Its a shame Snopes doesnt cover rumors that run through the chareidi community. Well they cover and debunk one story. David Miller and his refusal to fly without his Tefilling on United flight 175 on 9/11/01.
notarabbi, I’ve never learnt that gemora. I cannot imagine that is the meaning though. Its the girls fault that she was at home and the boy couldn’t control himself? So beauty is now a sin? Was she flaunting it in some way?
I’m going to look up that gemora because that seems like it doesn’t fit with Judaism.
And my step-father was told he is allowed to drive on Shabbos – he is a doctor and has to go to the hospital. His psak was from a charedi mainstream Rabbi, lest anyone think this is a MO psak.
Kasha, care to source, or just have us search all eight chelakim of chazon ish (and the igros, and emunah u’bitachon and heck, throw in maaseh ish…)
Kasha. The girl in the gemara was dressed not tzniusdik? the father took her to beis din?
Notarabbi: Parents should daven that they do a good job raising their kids. Everything else will follow if they are successful in that.
Telling someone off, in ANY situation will elicit a negative response, it is not a sign of acknowleding wrong or “feeling guilty”. Kamayim….
sj yes i myself am familiar with two doctors that have a heter from a prominent Posek to drive (or be driven) on Shabbos, under certain circumstances
You say people should not look at. There is gemorah Tanis 24a with a story. Someone had a pretty daughter, and one day noticed a boy peeking thru the fence. He asked what are you doing? He replied I wont merit to marry her, at least let me look at her. The father asked Hashem to kill her and she died, because she was making people look at her. “
OY! SO many problems with this! If this story is true (a big if, IMO), this guy surely gets the Father of the Year Award! A boy was peeking at a girl through the fence, and SHE IS NOW CHAYAV MISA????????? AND – noch di tzie, her own father davened for her death???? PLEASE be careful not to tell this story over to our sonim. It is bad enough to see it in print here.
And Kasha, few people, if any, were executed by the Beis Din/Sanhedrin for serious capital crimes (much less their manner of dress), so please quote the exact source and the actual words of the source.
Okie. now I feel the need to say something sober.
Merely being pretty is not a sin. A girl does her’s, and Hashem does the rest. There are plenty of sickos out there; the fact that some guy is out of control is not her problem. She need not wear a burqa. Or even a hijab. I suppose eventually they will come into style. You know, like a Tommy Burqa. In which case they will cost $600 and frum girls will have fist fights over the last one at Estis. But until then…
But as far the oneshim of chazal…I mean, if you’d like to learn literal haskafah from that one, you’d also –
Lose your eyes if you misquote a source (Chagigah 3b)
Die if you –
Teach a posuk wrong (Bava Basra 21b)
Come late to a drasha ( Bava Basra 22a)
If you get mad at your chavrusa (Bava Metziah 84a)
If you try to fool a talmid chacham (Brachos 58a)
Do something mutar in public that other may not know is ossur for them (avodah zara 17)
Pushing off a yoledes’s korban (Shabbos 55b)
There’s a lot more death in chazal, but I’ll spare ya.
Obviously, she did something wrong in inyaney tzinius. Deeply wrong. But it doesn’t mean the onesh for a lack of tzinius is death. Chazal are teaching us how important the inyan is, but not literally.
Though OOmis, your attitude towards chazal is very sad.
Yes, the story is in Mesechta Taanis. But Gemaras are meant to studied b’iyun. But your attitude is very sad. There is a whole shas out there, full of depth. Sad sad.
Either learn Gemara, or accept that women don’t learn Gemara, and don’t impose your opinion on it.
Anyway, back to sarcasm.
The story is true in its essential facts. The context in which it appears in the gemara will clarify some things, but not the actions of the Amora (yes the father appears to have been an Amora). It certainly requires going the maharsha, and other meforshim on the gemara to see if they offer an explanation for the actions of the father. The story is mentioned as part of an incident with Rav Ashi. Rav Ashi once related a din in hilchos shabbos, one of the talmidim commented on the halacha and Rav Ashi replied That is the opinion of so and so (rav yosi bar I forget who). The talmid replied “that’s me”. Rav ashi asked I thought you were a talmid of so and so (also a r’ yosi bar someone) why are you here. He replied “he didn’t have rachmanus on his own son and daughter, he won’t have any on me. The gemara then relates the two stories, the one with the daughter is the one mentioned here. It was his daughter being looked at.
In defense of oomis. The gemara was grossly misrepresented here the way it was brought up.
How was it misrepresented? The gemorah doesn’t criticize the Amorah, the analysis of the talmid quoted notwithstanding.
If an Orthodox rabbi tells you that a restaurant is kosher, and you see them serving something that is obviously treif, would you eat in the restaurant? Of course not! And you’d be over an issur if you did! (You would also probably call the rabbi and let him know what you saw.) The same is true regarding Shabat. We rely on rabbis when the halachah is unclear (sometimes even to poskim); we don’t need to ask shilahs on things that are obvious.
BTW my wife is a physician and was permitted to drive to the hospital on Shabat to take care of the patients.
Regarding the seemingly unfair penalties, the author of the Tosafot Yom Tov said that the reason that Jews were murdered in the Chmielnicki massacres was that we talked in shul.
I personally know people who are known as rabbis but do not have Yoreh Yoreh semichah, and I also know people who have Yoreh Yoreh semichah but are not known as rabbis. Semichah is just a statement that you have learned particular areas of halachah and can be trusted to teach and answer questions about those areas. Many with semichah never actually work as rabbis.
Context is everything.
peselmalka, I think you are way off because if you want to help someone make changes that is not the way to do it. That is probably why she is at the madreigah she is at right now because of people who are pushing and shoving at her, and not because people are showing her the right derech in the right way as others are trying to point out here.
You can’t change other people only yourself and you can’t control others only yourself. So how do you bring about change in other people? In order to bring about change in other people, you can only change yourself and watch how others respond to your change.
Obviously yelling at movingmountains, will not encourage her or anyone else to lengthen their skirts or buy longer skirts in the future. Threatening her with gehenom or wrath from Hashem will not either. How do you know what she is going through and how far she has come that Hashem will judge her harshly? You don’t know that at all. You don’t know where Hashem’s compassion and rachmonos begins and ends so where she is concerned. Hashem will judge each one of us individually according to our own mitzvos and aveiros and YOU can’t tell anyone how Hashem will weigh them, and which will outweigh the other. So please put your pitchfork down and pick up a harp so you can play and sing a different tune.
My father O”H did not have smicha, but certainly deserved it. His knowledge of Torah was astonishing, and he had a photograhic memory. If we asked him a question, he would immediately open up a sefer and show us the exact spot where the teshuvah was. Whenever he was asked to give a lecture, he never took up notes with him. He spoke extemporaneously for an hour, and was always well-received by other talmidei chachomim and laypersons alike. I say this, because he never wanted to be a musmach. He always said he never learned for the sake of the title. I am sure there are many such T”Ch.
I AM KINDLY ASKING EVERYONE to please give this a rest until after Yom Kippur. How about we all Daven extra hard on Yom Kippur that all the people who arent doing what they should be should have a change of heart and do a Teshuvah shelayma? Frankly I think thats a lot more toieles than everybody arguing back and forth here and getting nowhere. Lets not underestimate the power of tefilah. Lets not underestimate our power. If we do a real Teshuvah then we are on a very high level which is higher than the Tzaddikim Gemurim, if we then Daven for something theres a very strong chance that we will get what we Daven for. Lets take advantage of that and Daven that all Yidden do Teshuvah and that Moshiach should come this year and end this miserable Galus once and for all.
Mod-80, when I was a kannai, I used to make fun of those who say that women who dress improperly and wander around at 3 AM, are not responsible if somebody attacks them. While of course it is wrong, nevertheless, they are obviously negligent. I gave a mashal that imagine a bank, instead of using safe deposit boxes, would place all valuables in individual paper bags, and tape them to the outside wall of the bank with a sign warning everybody on the street that these bags contain personal valuables, and nobody has any right to touch them by law.
BTW, PY is no longer a kannai.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.