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I think eclipses is correct if women and girls would have healthy self esteems they wouldnt have to prove themselves to anyone and they would be proud to be doing the right thing. as they were positively and gently taught the correct way of dressing- specically by the mothers example as well as perhaps the father mentioning the rewards for dressing tzniusdig. Tznius begins at home….
Maybe I’m naive (after all I live “out of town”) but are short skirts really such a problem?
During the week, my girls (including 3 teenagers) and I, as well as all of their friends that I see in our house, all wear pleated skirts at least 4 inches below the knee with black tights. Shabbos outfits are harder to find, but we still manage to find long skirts (and wear opaque hose instead of tights).
The biggest two tznius problems that I see are low (or loose) necklines and shells with extremely tight sleeves. I think that most women know that their skirts have to be long enough to cover the knee and that this is not such a big issue.
Am I wrong?
unfortunately there is a small minority that gives us all this problem with the blatant behavior described.
Why is this thread so negative? “Tell the girls not to [insert whatever here].”
How about doing something positive? How about having tznius fashion shows? Make tznius clothing look attractive and the girls (and women) will want to wear it. How about ads for tznius clothing in magazines geared to women? If all girls are exposed to is from the secular world, and they have nothing to compare it to, where is the choice?
Kids learn from their parents. Spouses learn from each other. If a woman sees her husband is not that makpid with being kovea itim, or making it to shul on time or times it so that he makes it for barchu, don’t you think she will cut corners at times? If its good enough for him (and vice versa)…..
If kids see their parents cut corners, they will too. Eventually, the cut corners become the norm. (I personally don’t see this as the terrible mageifa people make it out to be but according to those who do) To use skirts as an example since this is the thread. Did too short, too tight skirts just suddenly pop up one day? Did we go from flairy skirts that go down as far as you need them to to suddenly too tight and too short? Kids test boundaries with their parents, people test boundaries with halacha. When kids see they can get away with things, they push the boundary even more. Same with halacha. I don’t beliebe Rabbonim have been asleep at the switch, and if they are not putting out these long screeds about the “prutzos” and “zonos” masquerading as BY girls, I don’t thing anyone else should either.
SJSinNYC
Kudos! I always say the same thing.
Why should a man NOTICE a woman’s lack of Tzinius in the first place??
SJSinNYC, stop coming up with all the unfounded excuses.
If we had batei-dinim that had real power, the problem would be easily solved. they would catch a couple of these t’snius-challenged women and give them lashes. Tho OTDs would be dealt with even more harshly. And everything would be fine thereafter.
Just one quick story about a short skirt. I was at a Chinese auction. The woman in charge was wearing a skirt that just covered her knees. Barely.
The problem was she was standing on a stage. Those sitting in the first row could see halfway up her thighs. Luckily there were no men there. But it was still not appropriate.
One must be careful to consider where one will be when choosing what to wear. Something that may be okay in one context might not be in another.
Talking about tznius fashion and magazines. My sons started a magazine in our neighborhood. You can’t even imagine the ads the frum clothing stores sent over to put into the magazine. My son had to photoshop the ads to build up the necklines and lengthen the skirts and sleeves in order to make it kosher enough to not offend anyone. Now our magazine does not have any divrei torah or articles from Rabbonim, it is strictly for fashion and yet WE fixed everything to be tznius and not offend anyone. These same ads went in “as is” to all the other frum media outlets.
No one complains about the ads, and the papers and magazines carry them week after week along with the stories of the parsha, midah of the month, etc. Money is money after all. And no one boycotts these papers either, they run to buy them, read them and advertise in them. If the very famous, hi class and fashionable stores in BP and Flatbush, advertise short skirts, short sleeves and tight clothing right in the top media outlets right next to a column from a prominent Rabbi, what message does that send? Stop blaming the young girls!
SJSinNYC-
I go to the early minyan every morning but it doesn’t help, there are still ads and newspapers all over the place.
After that I still have to go to work to pay tuition. (Would you advocate free tuition for children of men who stay home because they don’t want to see any immodesty?)
mdd – “they would catch a couple of these t’snius-challenged women and give them lashes. Tho OTDs would be dealt with even more harshly.”
Wonderful! What do you have in mind?
mdd, one wrong thing doesn’t excuse another right? So men have a chiyuv to make sure they don’t see women who aren’t dressed properly.
Dr. P, we can’t remove every ad around. But this thread is about frum women dressed improperly. So men must take every precaution possible. Davening at a netz minyan does give the best chance at avoiding improperly dressed women as there are so few people on the street.
So now, why is everyone yelling about skirt length and at the same time not going to a netz minyan?
The problem here is that girls are never taught the reason for Tzniyus. There is no chinuch – there is just control. Maybe a Bais Yaakov does not want to teach a girl about the yetzer hora of men in regard to tzniyus. I don’t know. My daughter is 12 and has no clue about any attractions between men and women. She looks like a little girl and for the life of her has no idea why she can’t wear short sleeves. She listens of course – but it is a real mystery to her. I of course will try to guide her as she grows older. But if all she hears from school are rules – and let me tell you in some of the Bais Yaakovs in NY there are insane ‘Tzniyus’ rules – then I am afraid that she might rebel. Some schools tell the girls that a pony on the side is not tzniyus, that their bangs are not tzniyus, that their long skirts are not tzniyus. One tzniyus teacher in a BY in brooklyn looks under the girls sweaters to see if their tzniyus button UNDER THE SWEATER is unbuttoned! Of course this turns off tons of girls.
Girls have to be taught the meaning behind tzniyus – they just can’t have rules shoved down their throats. It might be a touchy subject – but it has to be done. The schools have to Mechanech – not just preach!
Please don’t blame uniforms for this. They are a G-dsend! I am so happy not to have to deal with a full school wardrobe. There is no way I could afford it. The girls still have plenty of opportunities to make good tznius decisions.
Ayshes Chayil, it is enough to accidently see something for a split second, and it will produce a negative effect. Since you are an ayshes, you don’t hop it.
I may be a minority here, but a Pasuk in Micha should not create such heated discussion.
Tziipi. Uniforms are GREAT for parents, I agree 100%. They are even great for the schools because they dont have to deal with issues of tznius because they choose the uniform already.
“One tzniyus teacher in a BY in brooklyn looks under the girls sweaters to see if their tzniyus button UNDER THE SWEATER is unbuttoned! Of course this turns off tons of girls.
Girls have to be taught the meaning behind tzniyus – they just can’t have rules shoved down their throats.”
To this day my wife has bitter feelings about the “tznius morah” who used to check under the girls uniform dresses to make sure they were wearing the appropriate “leggings” (I’m a man, you’ll have to forgive my not knowing the appropriate name).
SJS
It seems to me that most of the virulence on this topic is coming from women .
The strange emotions women have regarding others dress has been commented on in previous threads.
Popa, that’s true too. Its very “playground bully” mentality.
NO ONE has the right to check UNDER anyone’s garments. THAT in itself is NOT TZNIUS and anyone who thinks it is should have their heads examined. If the over garment covers everything the undergarment does not have to be closed up. It should be comfortable. That is going way too far and I could absolutely understand why kids would be turned off by it.
I mentored a young lady who lost her mother to a brain aneurysm. She was very young only 11 and she was one of 5 children. Her school did not know how to deal with her although she was a typical BY kid. One of the things she told me that hurt her the most was that they kept pointing to her top button and asking her to close it. She said they point to her button which was just three inches from her heart. They were more concerned with her opened button than her broken heart. That caused her enormous pain, so much that she did not know how to deal with it. It compounded the pain she already did not know how to deal with concerning the loss of her mother which her mechanchim also did not help her with. That caused her to rebel.
I am all for tznius and I myself am very careful with what I wear. But why is it that the women that are always preaching about are usually a bit unattractive? Why can’t there be someone who is dressed beautifully and tznius at the same time to be an example to the young girls?
I knew someone who was really an example but she tragically passed away. Instead of whining let’s do something and be examples. Wear a nice wig everyday and try to wear it in a reasonable length, dress nicely with tznius, put on makeup and don’t go around looking like a shlump. You be the role model. Shlumpiness isn’t tznius.
Yup, Mybat, just like all feminists are ugly. Uh huh….
“I am all for tznius and I myself am very careful with what I wear. But why is it that the women that are always preaching about are usually a bit unattractive? Why can’t there be someone who is dressed beautifully and tznius at the same time to be an example to the young girls?
I knew someone who was really an example but she tragically passed away. Instead of whining let’s do something and be examples. Wear a nice wig everyday and try to wear it in a reasonable length, dress nicely with tznius, put on makeup and don’t go around looking like a shlump. You be the role model. Shlumpiness isn’t tznius. “
In my neighborhood, the biggest complainers stopped yelling about Tznius as soon as they dropped some serious weight.
Moq:
I just read your post on page 1.
Excellent.
Aishes Chayil
Member
SJSinNYC
Kudos! I always say the same thing.
Why should a man NOTICE a woman’s lack of Tzinius in the first place??
Aishes Chayil:
There was a story a few days ago in the NY Jets locker room, where a female reporter came in dressed very provocatively, and obviously the men in the room said some minor offensive comments.
The feminist groups got all upset about it calling it a chauvinistic offence.
Now obviously I’m not comparing Heilige Yidden to these players, but you have to understand that men have Techinos and will have nisyoinos to be oiver aveirois, if you dress inappropriately!
Chosson, that’s funny, I was just thinking about that. But I look at it the opposite way.
No matter what a woman is wearing, it doesn’t justify a man’s inappropriate behavior.
SJSinNYC
“No matter what a woman is wearing, it doesn’t justify a man’s inappropriate behavior.”
Yes and no. When you become a man you can fairly comment on this. You dont know the male Tayvah when a beautiful women is dressed inappropriately in front of us. Trust me you dont want to know.
EDITED
Sjs, we as women are not in the position to judge mens behavior, simply because we do not have that yetzer hora.
WIY,
What about if the girl is your daughter? Do you think its ok for other men to leer at her based on how she is dressed?
You may have a tayvah, but YOU are responsible for controlling it or staying in your house.
Women are dressed inappropriately ALL OVER THE PLACE. Obviously some places are worse than others (like a beach) but there are women barely dressed on the street. You think its ok to leer at her? Or act on your desires whether or not she agrees?
I didn’t say it was easy. But it still doesn’t excuse your (the general you, not specific) behavior.
EDITED
You may have a tayvah to dress inappropriately, but YOU are responsible for controlling it or staying in your house.
So right, women don’t go around blaming men for their desire to dress inappropriately. Men generally blame it on women.
In addition, frum women dressed inapprorpiately generally do not even come close to what non Jewish women are wearing.
EDITED
I was reading the blogs on several sports sites about the reporter in the Jets locker room. The general consensus among the writers (which I feel I can safely say are overwhelmingly not jewish bloggers) is that both the reporter and the players are wrong. The players for the comments, and looks and the reporter for her choice of clothing, especially into a mens locker room (where the testesterone level is already way off the charts after hours of grueling workouts).
Both sides, the men and women, have choices to make and both are held accountable for their decisions. Neither side can blame the other. Women should dress appropriately at all times (appropriately obviously depends on where and when and who is around). Men should be careful about where they go and where they look because they are responsible for what their eyes see, despite the choices made by the women in how they dress. The goyim understand this (on their level and their standards – which are obviously different than ours) we should too. “Dont look at how i’m dressed” and “dont dress in a way that gets my yetzer hara activated” are both wrong attitudes.
SJS:
I’m with you on this one.
No matter how a person might be dressed, act, speak, etc, cannot excuse inappropriate behaviors. A person might not be able to control their thought process, but they can control their behaviors. There are NO valid excuses otherwise.
It’s a new day! The days of blaming the victim are over.
so right
Exactly, why do women feel they have a right to walk around dressed improperly (non Jewish women included)?
Women ask why they are treated like objects, its very simple, dont treat yourself like an object and then men wont treat you like one. if you dress a certain way you communicate a certain message about who and what you are and if men stare well thats what you deserve.
Let’s all back up a little here for a minute. Did anyone else notice or is it just me, that “missme” started this whole rant but hasn’t made one comment since she began this whole l”h about the “so called frum girls”.
So what was the point if not to put down other people and walk away. Once again proving my point of the lack of Ahavas Yisroel. If this was a real discussion about how to help a situation and make it better, she would be involved in the discussion.
Again, I make this request of the moderators to screen the threads and make sure they are not topics for L”H, and allow only topics that are asking for assistance, information or respectful discussions on how to help the community at large.
So dressing improperly = being an object?
I won’t deny the reporter dressed like this to garner attention and increase her fame (she has said so). But a woman wearing a less clothing than halacha requires because its hot out? If she isn’t Jewish, why shouldn’t she be comfortable for the weather? She doesn’t have to submit to your sensitivities.
And frum women have a broad spectrum of whats allowed based on their rabbonim. If I follow my Rav, and you think its not tzanua, that is your problem, not mine.
You CAN not look if you dont want to.
Seeing somthing for a second or by accident shouldnt bring you to bad hihurim if you are normal, and dont want to have bad hirhurim.
Why some people like to portray themselves as crazed helpless people who are unable to control themselves is really beyond me.
EDITED
Sjs, The larger problem is the outright violations, not “just sensitivities”. That’s all of our problems. a. areivim zeh l’zeh b. it causes others to sin (which is perhaps the worst sin itself).
646, No, you can’t not look when crossing the street. Or driving. Or 100 other scenarios. And just the act of having seen an improperly clad person is a sin itself. Hihurim are human nature. It can’t be avoided. It it doesn’t occur, I suggest a doctor.
SJSinNYC
“But a woman wearing a less clothing than halacha requires because its hot out?”
Oh so if its hot in your house on Shabbos you turn on the ac yourself? But its hot! Do you turn on the light because its dark in a room? But its dark! Do you eat in treif restaurants because it tastes better? Why does everybody wimp out of yiddishkiet these days?!
You think you are hot? Look at those chassidish men dressed in who knows how many layers and a hat!
If somone cannot avoid having bad hirhurim about woman they happen to see for a second while crossing the street ect, THEY need to work on themselves.
WIY, I followed with “If she isn’t Jewish.” That’s an important piece of my comment.
So right, there are rabbonim who allow women to wear sleeves above their elbows. So for them its ok, even if you think its out and out halachically wrong.
there are also “rabbaim” that “poskin” that their congregants may drive to temple on Shabbos.
Mod80, with all due respect, there are quite a few Orthodox Rabbis who permit sleeves above the elbow. Even if your rabbonim disagree with them.
Just because someone sports a shmatta that has semicha scribbled on it, doesn’t give him license to overturn the Torah, as some of those folks feel they can do. And when they do that, we all are obligated to call them to the carpet, despite that paper hanging on the wall in his office.
i *think* we all can agree on the following, basically.
and i believe this will show we all pretty much agree on the parallel issue, its just a matter of not understanding the whole of what each other is saying:
scenario 1. man in crowded street takes out his wallet and openly counts his hunderd dollar bills. soon after, it is stolen from him by robber.
scenario 2. robber stam takes a mans wallet
in scenario 2. the robber is 100% wrong. the man bears no responsibility.
in scenario 1. the robber is also 100% wrong, and his punishment should be exactly the same as in the other scenario. however the victim is also partially responsible for what happened to him, ALTHOUGH IT IN NO WAY REDUCES THE ROBBERS RESPONSIBILITY.
Mod80, with all due respect, there are quite a few Orthodox Rabbis who permit sleeves above the elbow. Even if your rabbonim disagree with them.
no comment
nice anology!
Myfriend, its generally not MO Rabbis who are posing as having smicha. Or having gotten it off the back of a matchbox.
Every letter from my neices schools is addressed to “Rabbi” – my BIL is NOT a rabbi. He has no smicha. The school said they address everything that way because so many people ask. Its assumed in Lakewood that you have “smicha.”
And these are large rabbonim.
The point is though, you would look at those dressed differently than YOUR standards as halachically wrong. I know people who think if you don’t wear tights (and sheer ones don’t count!) then you are violating halacha. Not according to my Rav. So if a man holds that way, I am in NO WAY liable for his hirhuring.
Mod80, I disagree that the man is responsible. It doesn’t matter what I have, its not your right to take it away. I just may be more likely to lose out in some way.
In scenario 2, you could make the case that it still is partially the man’s fault. Why is he carrying his wallet in his back pants pocket and not the front? Or why wasn’t he wearing a stomach pouch that no one can see? Sure, its more of a lifnei eiver situation, but it doesn’t make the man wrong.
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