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Dear Ujm,
Random example of the top of my Should the emphasis be on purely an obviously moral dresscode or should there be mindfulness not to be too obviously different….. Etc… I really do not care………
When I cross the street, I attempt to keep my mind on crossing the street. If I see skin, I have better things to think about them the gender. For sure I have no way of knowing if her knee is showing.
Driving on rural roads, NYPD horse patrols are far from my mind. It is the same for woman’s body parts. Are you sure you are a admitted Jew? What is on your mind when you drive?
I can not describe to you any of the horses or people I passed while I was driving today.
Definitely possible. Father and brother too. What they would be doing out here, is anybody’s guess.
It’s not a big deal. Just keep your mind on what your doing.
The trick is what to do with yourself on a day the yetzer harah is getting to you. Either get to your gemara first. Or your physics book. What ever fills your brain. Or, humble yourself big time.
Looks like 2022 will be no better than 2021 in terms of the pathetic cries from the dysfunctional self-appointed tzinius police seeking help for their yetzer horah addictions. Good news is that there are some excellent self-help books available for these troubled neshamas along with professional therapists (some advertising here on YWN) that will take on even the most difficult cases. A refuah shelamah in ’22 and may you be zocheh to not get run over by an 18 wheeler crossing the street while focused on the bare knee across the median strip.
This topic mostly bothers those who struggle with it most. It’s a given that people need to set their own personal safeguards for whatever they struggle with. In this particular example spreading awareness and education may help in general, but a rant on YWN wont do anything to help. If a true yere shamayim knows the yesser hara is waiting for him at every red light he would avoid red lights. It’s often those who are incredibly makpid and the most concerned about keeping a Halacha that struggle with it the most. If those efforts were focused inwards instead of outwards a lot more would be accomplished.
Someone should develop an app that works like the traffic alerts on navigation apps. Users could report tzinius violations while driving, which would then become a warning to fellow travelers driving through the same location.
When the SAME posters keep regurgitating variations of the SAME musar-posts on tzinius (moving from sheitels to neckline, to sleeve length to skirt length with an intermittent gevalt about sightings of “form-fitting” garments and starting over again with snoods, tichels or shpitzels ), mockery is an appropriate response. And no, the “mocker” may well be shomer shabbos and kashrus.
Orange > Users could report tzinius violations while driving
“report while driving” is not safe, unless you meant ” tzinius violations while driving”. This is done better automatically. Online platforms already have skin detectors to censor inappropriate images, just add two lower notches, one for Jews and a lower one for Muslims.
Why do I have to take a side between ztnius police and women with short skirts?
This is obviously a women’s yetzer harah that most men won’t understand,
But a lot of men have other things that women don’t understand.
The gra used to sit and learn with the windows shut with candlelight even by day
and he made a bigger hashpaha on the world than many professional speakers.Musar has a time and place. I very much hope that this post will inspire the encouragement of seniut and at the same type hope that you use your zealousness for a platform that will bear more fruits for your labor.
“This is one of the least discussed topics and yet perhaps the one that needs the most attention”
Modesty is the opposite of needing attention. Calling our attentions to immodesty, does not promote tznius. This is why most good Jews just stay on the sidelines. Those that are loudly promoting tznius, seem to think the same as those who are immodest.
I’m sorry if your really bothered by modern trends, but encouraging public discussion of such trends is counter-productive.
n0 > Modesty is the opposite of needing attention
when a certain senator was trying to define tznius into legislation, he was asked to give a strict definition of what lack of tznius is. He answered: I know when I see it.
@GadolHaDorah
If you have a problem with this thread, then go tell all your freinds to become more tzniusdik and start an organization encouraging women to keep the halachos of tznius. I don’t believe you don’t know anyone that isn’t following the halachos of tznius properly. Go and get them to follow the halachos properly, and then tell the coffee room members to be quiet. It seems like you yourself have a problem with tznius. And discussing it on the coffee room can actually bring a good result.I barely read ant of this but I’m totally creeped out that this is a topic that men sit and schmooze about. Don’t you have anything better to do than talk about girls’ knees?
@ bored_teen (AKA @trump-2024) To be fair, I said that this should be a topic decided on only by women and girls.
Not at all creepy, not sure which world you live in.
don’t know about short skirts, but, why do seminary girls wear BLACK school uniforms? are they in mourning? young girls should wear COLORS. plenty of time after marriage to mourn (just kidding about that)
Bored; men talk about blood and guts while eating supper in yeshivos, and plenty of other stuff that would shock you – gemara snd halacha discussions don’t phase people who are learning. I understand that it’s something that can make you feel uncomfortable, but in the context of everything else lomdei torah talk about, it isn’t necessarily creepy.
We are not allowed to wear fully black, which is a non-Jewish minhag. Overall, there were different minhagim in history: in Israel, men would buy line for their wives; in Bavel – coloured clothes, if I remember correctly. Red was not OK. None were black.
@ujm- there is absolutely no Halacha that says women can’t wear colorful things. The goal is to allow people to see us as a person not as a body, that doesn’t require us to wear black shmattes! When you start putting restrictions on people that aren’t sourced in Halacha or Rabinical guidance, you’re gonna turn people off. Let people follow Halacha and Rabanim and leave your opinions out of this.
@Avira- I don’t care how gory your guys’ conversations get. That has nothing to do with the fact that 1. Your opinion on this doesn’t hold any weight bc you’re not rabanim so these conversations are unproductive. And 2. These discussions among men probably don’t lead anywhere good.
UJM why are you staring at random women’s skirts?
Lakewhut- Good question!
ujm,
“I just counted the tznius threads in the coffee room. In the over 13 years the coffee room has existed, there is less than one thread per year, on average. “
What percentage of those tznius threads did you start, not necessarily as ujm?
n0mesorah,
“When I cross the street, I attempt to keep my mind on crossing the street”
“Driving on rural roads, NYPD horse patrols are far from my mind.”
“Definitely possible. Father and brother too. What they would be doing out here, is anybody’s guess”
These are some good examples of anecdotal argumentative fallacies. Not everyone requires all of their brain power to cross a street. Not everyone lives in a rural area. And you should probably be paying more attention to what’s around you while behind the wheel or you may blow past a flagger at a construction site and CV”S kill a construction worker, or be one one of those drivers who doesn’t help someone who’s in distress.
Also, passing someone on the street is only one example of everyday human interaction, so it’s interesting to me how that becomes the de facto tznius paradigm on the CR.
What percentage of those tznius threads did you start, not necessarily as ujm?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂bored_teen,
“I barely read ant of this but I’m totally creeped out that this is a topic that men sit and schmooze about.”
In my experience, men in the real world do not sit and schmooze together about this. There are a select few male posters on the CR who really like to bring these topics up.
AviraDeArah,
“Bored; men talk about blood and guts while eating supper in yeshivos, and plenty of other stuff that would shock you”
We’re not talking about teenagers here. And if my sons were to start talking about gross or inappropriate things at the table I would correct them. And Yeshiva boys speaking inappropriately at the table or in the beis medrash or at any other time should also be corrected by their rebbes/menahels.
“gemara snd halacha discussions don’t phase people who are learning. I understand that it’s something that can make you feel uncomfortable, but in the context of everything else lomdei torah talk about”
We are not learning maseches Brachos on this thread. This is not a beis medrash, and this is not talking in learning. We are on a public internet forum with a mixed audience of various ages and backgrounds. And the idea that lomdei Torah would speak in a way that makes others uncomfortable is motzi shem ra.
“it isn’t necessarily creepy. “
Creepy to the max.
Avram, i wasn’t clear – i didn’t mean blood and guts stam azoi, i meant they can talk about sugyos like zerikah, shechita, simanim, and tons more
Avirah – I think you misunderstand what she (and others) meant by creepy. It isn’t about men not being allowed to discuss tznius, as ujm tried to claim, nor is it about menm speaking about all sorts of subjects. The creepy factor is what Avram said, that men speaking about women’s bodies, their reactions to it or distraction by it is not an appropriate discussion to be had in mixed company. If you approached my daughter and told her you found her skirt distracting, you would be asked to leave whatever setting you found yourself in.
One creepy predator in our community was giving a group of young girls a ride home from a wedding. In the car on the way home he had a tape playing of a shiur of proper mikvah preperations. Are you going to tell me it’s halacha so no problem?
CreepySyag, you and i are talking about very different situations.
> And Yeshiva boys speaking inappropriately at the table or in the beis medrash or at any other time should also be corrected by their rebbes/menahels.
Rebbeim may not be there. I heard it from an esteemed Rav that when Magid Shiur will tell them that they are skipping the next blatt, the boys will be spending that might learning through it … Things are different now with Artscroll.
Nothing more creepy than a teenage girl, teaching a bunch of men hilchos tznius.
Sure, because that’s what happened 🙄
ujm,
“A small minority of them. Additionally, I’ve started very many more threads on Zionism (among many more topics) than this; should I supply that number as well?”
Nah, whatever. OPs aren’t very representative of participation in any given topic, my comment was in jest, and if you’ve got time to compile random CR posting statistics, I do not.
“Why is it that this particular topic makes people nervous?”
I’m not nervous about the topic at all. There are appropriate times and ways to discuss certain things, and there are inappropriate times and ways to discuss certain things. This thread falls into the latter category. If you bring your tefillin into the bathroom, I will object to you having your tefillin in there, and it isn’t because I don’t think tefillin are an important mitzvah and that you should have tefillin.
“I submit that this is directly because the difficulty many have (both female and well as male head of households who carry the sacred obligation of enforcing them) in complying with the laws on the issue of tznius. And that’s all the more reason to discuss it.”
And I submit that the manner in which you bring up this topic is itself a breach of tznius. When I see rabbonim talk about tznius, it is to men or women separately, and there’s no exhaustive review of all the problematic garments. When I see flyers or signs, the positive (dress this way) is emphasized, not the negative (don’t wear this or that). To do otherwise lacks eidelkeit.
” “In my experience, men in the real world do not sit and schmooze together about this.”
I can’t speak about your experience, but in the densely populated centers of Judaism, such as in Eretz Yisroel, New York and elsewhere, this topic is very much and often raised by Rabbonim in droshos to both men and women, as well as reminders placed on posted notices in the communities”
Drashos and signs are not sitting and schmoozing. Those are appropriate venues. And I bet the signs describe the appropriate way of dressing, not the inappropriate, which you have done. There is a world of difference.
“and is certainly often discussed among the Klal and Yeshivaleit as a topic of Halacha and Limud Torah.”
If you think this thread is an example of a halachic discussion or proper limud Torah, then I don’t know what to tell you.
“I don’t recall you objecting to discussions here of other halachic topics.”
I’ll let you do the research on that for me.
AviraDeArah,
“i didn’t mean blood and guts stam azoi, i meant they can talk about sugyos like zerikah, shechita, simanim, and tons more”
Understood, sorry for misunderstanding before.
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