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“from an adom gadol.”
Not a very convincing argument…..
Do you always just blindly accept whatever someone who you percieve as being an adom gadol says?
Many’s the adam gadol that himself had a bad marriage. Just ask Rabbeinu Gershom.
“If one dates for a longer period of time, one is able to find out certain things that only become evident with time. For example, whether he/she is selfish, egotistical, has habits that you cannot live with, mental/psychological issues ect.. also, if he has certain attitudes that might result in abuse (c”v)…. “
I strongly agree with this. Some personality traits are kept hidden during the initial “honeymoon” phase of a dating situation (the first several weeks). After several months, people tend to relax their guard and their truer nature comes through. Even Roshei Yeshivah do not always know about a bochur, if all they see is his shteiging away. That is only one aspect of his personality. I would rather know from the boys who dorm with a bochur, or spend their non Yeshivah time with him, what thier opinion of his character is, and I would want to know that the person whom I am questioning is himself a reliable and balabatish person.
Phyllis, I would be interested in hearing more from Dr. Yael. Because we non-Chassidishe are not limiting ourselves as much as Chassidim, background-wise, and for better or worse, don’t do the same type of research. The more open to various backgrounds, etc. one is re shidduchim (providing basic bottom-line of issues of middos, responsibility,frumkeit, etc. are met) the longer it might be helpful to date.
I get more laughs from Joseph than from any comedian. He nust be pulling our collective legs, as he makes these unfounded pronouncements as if they are Torah M’Sinai with absolutely no proof, and accuses others of bringing only anectodal data. And he does it with a straight face too!
Joseph,
Your assertion that fewer dates means fewer divorces and happier marriages (how do you even measure the latter?) does not make it fact. If you have some proof that this is the case, then please present it — otherwise, just come forward and state that it is merely your opinion — one you’re entitled to hold, but not necessarily one that is correct.
The Wolf
i married my husband after 4 dates of 3 hours each. no i am not chassidish in ANY way… and my parenst also thought that it was quick!! but i was ready and thats what counts! im not saying that this is the ideal way, but its much more common that it used to be
InShidduchim,
That’s great… and I’m glad that it worked for you. For me, it was just the opposite – between the date I met my future wife and the date of the wedding, over three years elapsed – and that worked for us.
Ultimately, everyone has to know when they’re ready to get married – and if you don’t know, then perhaps you shouldn’t be getting married in the first place.
The Wolf
Just because people do not get divorced, does not mean they are happy in their marriages. People stay married to each for a wide variety of reasons, even when the marriage is an awful one. In the chassidishe world, it may be that it is considered a real shanda and a boosha for someone to get divorced, and it might make it impossible for that person to easily remarry. Some women prefer the security of ANY marriage to the frightening prospect of being alone. Some people do stay together for the sake of the children (though how it benefits the children in an abusive marriage, I do not know). Some people just cannot face the unknown. So yes, they may not get divorced, but that is NOT because of having had fewer dates.
hear hear oomis and wolfish….
Phyllis: I was once in chasidishe camp for a summer to help out with a program, and in that time i made some very close chasidishe friends that do very short dating times. We discussed this openly and they all confirmed that their parents do tons of info (in which MIDDOS are thoroughly researched), they marry pretty much the same family background (which solves a lot of problems), and do very little dating in which the goal is to see if they feel comfortable with eachother. SOme come from large families where they are all extremely happily married.
In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.
U cannot generalize, but Dr. Yael Respler, who is clearly NOT chasidish, and deals with marriage counseling more than any of us, tremendously encourages chasidish dating. She said if this can be done by the litvish/modern there would much less divorces.
Phyliis’ reference of Dr. Respler put it best. Clearly De. Respler found, from her extensive marriage counseling experience, that less dating leads to healthier marriages.
All the date-ahoy crowd could muster is anecdotal stories and/or third-hand or gut-feelings. How is that greater scientific proof? Has anyone a counter to Dr. Respler?
Not to discredit anyone in their professional status, but how do marriage counselors know what happens behind the front doors of the house? a) the chassidish or those who use their methods of dating may not go to marriage counselors, even if it might be necessary. As stated before, many people would rather have marriages full of conflict, abuse and problems than go to the “tabboo” counselors. The very mention of a counselor is enough to destroy people’s reputations in the world we live. Someone says they went to one and their, and their children’s, marriage prospects become limited.
b) People may lie as to what really happens in their house. People put up a front, have excuses or manage to otherwise hide what really happens.
And by the way, what does a marriage counselor have except stories and feelings? Isnt that how they help? How do you know that others here are not marriage counselors,psychologists ect just because their screen name does not have their profession listed?
Dr. Respler is a respected therapist and very fine woman, but her advice comes from a specific hashkafa, which is not necessarily the best advice for a particular situation. If memory serves me, I believe that her attitude about litvishe people dating in a more chassidishe way was a response to someone who was litvishe and wanted to date a chassidishe boy because she couldn’t find any litvishe boys that she liked enough to date. In any case, if I am mistaken about that, just because a columnist gives advice, does not mean that advice is ALWAYS correct for everyone. I stand by my original belief, that it takes time to get to know someone reasonably well, and a few dates don’t cut it (with due respect to InShidduchim, who clearly was most fortunate, B”H).
and what real-life tried & true data does anyone have to counter Dr. Respler’s findings?
Going once…
(all I hear is anecdotes and “gut” feelings)
going twice…
going…
“Has anyone a counter to Dr. Respler?”,
O.k. here is one,
According to the Processes of Adaptation in Intimate Relationships (PAIR) project by Ted Huston, a professor of human ecology at The University of Texas at Austin, yes.
oomis: You are mistaken (and not for the first time either.) I very much agree with Dr. Respler’s analysis. The facts on the ground, have borne her out. I am surprised any non-professional feels confident enough to dispute her (and many others) research.
Go take a look at Chasidishe marriages. The simcha and happiness in palpable for anyone to see, something you don’t sense nearly to the same degree by other general (frum) populations.
000, you left out who, what, when, where of that “project.” And it is regarding goyim, who the Chasam Sofer says are even physically different than Yidden. (Other mekors say they are emotionally and fundamentally different.)
“you left out who, what, when, where of that “project.”
It was 168 randomly picked American couples.
“And it is regarding goyim, who the Chasam Sofer says are even physically different than Yidden. “
So I guess you dont beleive any medical studies that are conducted by and with goyim (which would be just about all of them).
>>So I guess you dont beleive any medical studies that are conducted by and with goyim (which would be just about all of them). <<
Biological and sociological are two separate things. Psychological and sociological Researches have made the mistake in the past grouping Hispanics together, without realizing that the Dominicans react differently than the Porto Ricans.
Just seeing the notion that they should be the same is obsurd. Someone checks that the got married after meeting the person for 1 date. Was it set up by family members who did research before (and know each other), or were they drunk when they met in Vegas?
How can you compare the two?
Joseph:
Come on, you’re not going to bring in the pasuk “Basar Chamorim Bisaram”? 🙁
That deserves a topic in of itself.
lol this is funny. Different things work for different people! I would never manage with doing sit ins, but that wasn’t the way I was brought up. And I also can’t do like dating for a year.
1 and a 1/2 to 2 months works for me
“Was it set up by family members who did research before (and know each other), or were they drunk when they met in Vegas?”
It was 168 randomly picked couples, they were probably of diffrent ethnicities and backrounds
A point of the study was that there are certain feelings that are formed only when somone knows someone for a longer period of time, and then when the people are friends and like each other before they get marrried it benefits the marriage.
Another point was that there is more to really liking somone then just having the same hashkofos as them and being brought up in the same kind of house and “checking someone out” can only tell you these (hashkafos etc.) types of things.
Do you really like EVREYONE who has the same hashkafos and brought up in the same back round as you? I know I don’t.
“Biological and sociological are two separate things.”
I was talking about his quote that goyim are diffrent physically from yidden
“Go take a look at Chasidishe marriages. The simcha and happiness in palpable for anyone to see, something you don’t sense nearly to the same degree by other general (frum) populations.”
With all due respect to your opinion, it is not even remotely the same thing that I have observed. And btw, you have NO idea what credentials I have or do not have. For all you know I could BE Yael Respler (I’m not) and playing devil’s advocate in order to get a stimulating conversation going. I am perfectly ok with your opinion of MY opinion.
I have many people in my community who seem to share the same goals, hashkafos, ideologies, desires, etc. that I do. I would not have wanted to marry any one of them.
It HELPS that a prospective shidduch shares your personal philosophies, but ultimately that is only ONE component of what makes a good shidduch. People have to like each other, and the person they marry should ideally be their best and dearest friend,RAYIM AHUVIM, as we say. This is the person whose face will be across from your table for 50 or so years, B”EH. It should be a face you really want to see there, and the average person cannot know if that is potentially so, after a couple of dates. That goes for the secular world as well. People should not marry someone solely because they have that initial tug that says they are “in love.” There has to be a deeper meaning in their relationship, because so much of that feeling is hormonal (as Hashem intended), and not rooted in more fundamental issues. When a couple enjoys each other’s company when they are not in a pressure-cooker situation to rush, rush, rush to get engaged or break it up, something really wonderful can develop where it might have been squashed at an earlier date.
000646:
1st of all, 168 is an extremely small sample size.
2nd of all, How long were these people married for. Marriage is something someone builds. It could be people were happier if they work on their marriage with their partner (thus dating time is irrelevant to this discussion)
3rd of all, (regarding my vegas comment), if 16 people among the 168 (roughly 10%) stated that they dated 2 weeks or less, and those 16 did the aforementioned “Vegas” and responded that they are “slightly unhappy” how can we now apply this to Religious Jews with different ideals, customs and beliefs?
We Can’t!
(Just challenging your proof)
Edited by YW Moderator-25
Mod25, thanks for your help
Jay MAtt,
Good point! I guess the study isnt a good proof to the frum situation.
Also does anyone know of any frum studies besides those of Dr. respler on this subject?
gavra:
I wasn’t referring to Basar Chamorim Bisaram (although I agree that would be an interesting discussion.) I think that is referring primarily to the Mitzriyam, although to a lesser extent other nochrim as well.
I am referring to a befeirus Chasam Sofer (I think I posted the mekor in the CR a few weeks ago) that says the Yidden are physically different than goyim AND (this is befeirush) the Chasam Sofer rules that all secular medical knowledge is only considered “perhaps” true when it comes to Jews, since Jews and non-Jews, it says in Chazal, have different physical natures, and medical research is done, generally, on non-Jews. All the more so where a person’s spiritual, psychological, etc. nature is concerned.
will hill- “Go take a look at Chasidishe marriages. The simcha and happiness in palpable for anyone to see, something you don’t sense nearly to the same degree by other general (frum) populations”
excuse me- so basically it is mostly chasidish people that have happy marriges and litvish people don’t.
A very close family friend of ours is a marrige counselor/therapist and she has told my mother that she counsels mostly chasidish couples.
Being chasidish or litvish won’t guarantee or even make a happy marriage.
The reason why you may see more couples that are divorced from the litvish circles is because it is much more tabbo in the chasidish circles to get divorced!
“That’s great… and I’m glad that it worked for you. For me, it was just the opposite – between the date I met my future wife and the date of the wedding, over three years elapsed – and that worked for us.”
There’s no reason for it to take that long, **DELETED** –YW Moderator-25. I can’t think of a single posek that would allow you to date a woman for three years before marriage. We can argue over two dates, three dates, ten, or whatever, but I think we can all agree that three years is too much.
And Dr. Respler has met with a significantly larger sample size than 168?
I think this is each to his own and each person needs to do what he or she is comfortable with.
i definitely agree w/ havesomeseichel
Dr. Respler’s study, in which she highly recommends the Chasidish “dating” system, is borne out by the FRUM couples she dealt with.
And Dr. Respler is far from being a Chosid.
>>Dr. Respler’s study, in which she highly recommends the Chasidish “dating” system, is borne out by the FRUM couples she dealt with.<<
The grass is always greener on the other side
But isnt her whole research based on “anecdotes and “gut” feelings”? What about Frum couples that I, or any other person, know? All my comments are based on true stories and experiences and thus far, I have found that if someone dates more, then they are likely to have found out a lot of the information that was kept hidden that pertains to the shidduch.
And once again, how do you know that I am not a psychiatrist? It is quite hard to know what is a profession and what is a hobby here in the CR….
Joseph:
See Niddah 45a. The Gemorah there (first answer) uses the Pasuk for Romans. Its also (The gemorah)(probably) the Mekor for your Chasam Sofer.
Also, you can’t be an Am Ha’aretz if you want to follow the Chassidish dating system. Since most male daters follow the Achashvarosh method (try all girls, pick the best one), it would place them in the Am Ha’aretz camp :0)
I could name ten girls easily that had sit ins-chassidish way and got divorced within the first year!! 2 within the first month!! That’s abnormal.
I also know many litvish divorced but not like that!!
There’s no reason for it to take that long, **DELETED** –YW Moderator-25. I can’t think of a single posek that would allow you to date a woman for three years before marriage. We can argue over two dates, three dates, ten, or whatever, but I think we can all agree that three years is too much.
You realize that people used to be engaged for a year right? It was very common. Three years might not be right for YOU, but it doesnt mean its wrong for others. Can you quote a posek that says its assur to date for three years?? I married my husband after three years of knowing him (1.5 years of dating and a 9 month engagement). It worked well for us.
I thought they were more liberal in CA…
It makes a lot of sense to me that since litvishe couples are more open to varied background and family types that longer dating times are appropriate, since most conversations will revolve around the type of houses the 2 of of them will build. While when u take a more chassidish girl/boy that dates a family type just like her own, and her parents met the girl/boy before her, and u do a lot of research beforehand, they will need less dating time. It all adds up…
gavra,
The Gemara suggests that the Shichvas Zera of a Nochri has different properties from that of a Jew, since the Nochri eats non-Kosher foods and is physically affected by his diet.
The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos YD 175) writes that this Gemara is relevant in practice. He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew.
Rav Elyashev shlita pointed out that the Chasam Sofer writes that the physical characteristics of a Yid are different than a Goy, and that what applies to one may not apply to the other. Therefore, said Rav Elyashev, how much more so regarding the mind/soul?
All the research in the world done by the mamas and the papas (no jokes, please), cannot substitute for getting to know a person’s actual personality with YOU. Just as a small example, unless he has been out to eat at a restaurant with the boy, a Rosh Yeshivah or rebbie has no idea how a boy treats the wait staff, if he is a conservative or generous tipper, courteous when asking the girl what she would like to order, etc. And since many yeshivish couples do not often go to a restaurant until the boy feels it’s worth spending that type of money (at least one or two dates, from what I hear), these are things even the girl will not witness unless she keeps going out with the boy.
There are many middos or lack thereof, that only first become evident over time, when the natural tendency is to relax ones’ guard. I went out with a fellow with whom I was fixed up after a couple of years of hearing about how wonderful he was, how smart, how learned, what good yichus, blah, blah, blah. I was very excited about meeting him. it was not until I actually DID meet him that I saw that he was a bit slovenly, very uncaring and blase about the date altogether, and he did something that showed he was not quite so terrific as his portrayers thought him to be. All the research in the world would not have shown me that until I saw it firsthand.
Thank you oomis. I will pass on your wisdom to the Gedolim that insist on short dating and advise them that you feel otherwise. I will tell them that despite how well the system has worked and is working, oomis from the CR insists that since Obama is Prez, “change” must be implemented. Is there a # the Gedolim can reach you if they still disagree with your chochma?
You can also correct Dr. Respler from the errors of her research.
How many people particapated in Dr. Respler’s study?
Does anyone know the details of it?
Oomis “I was fixed up after a couple of years of hearing about how wonderful he was, how smart, how learned, what good yichus, blah, blah, blah.”
When one is finding serious info about a boy or girl, the qualities u mention above are not the ones being stressed. Those inquiring are asking about MIDDOS, exactly the issue of the boy that surprised u. When I say asking I mean digging. Phone calls are made not just to Roshei Yeshiva, but to roommates, chavrusahs etc.
000646, I dont think it was a study, it was the result of meeting real problem facing real problems and thus coming to a conclusion.
Joseph:
If you could please point me to that Gemorah inside, I would appreciate it. It would seem that Hu Hadin for a Yid who eats non-Kosher, for whatever reason, and that is not the Pashut Pshat in the Gemorah in Niddah, which seems to say the din of Bas Yud Beis is Davka in a Jew, and is not Mechalek between whether her father ate Kosher or not.
joseph: just b/c someone did a study & found out that in general it works better a certain way, does that mean every single person must do that exactly?
perhaps you can argue that oomis1105 is the minority, & it works better your way for most people. but how can you say exactly how long each person in the world should have been dating?
& “short” is relative – how do u even know that what oomis1105 is talking about is longer than what they think is ok?
I know someone who had heard great middos and other great aspects about this shidduch, they met a few times and got engaged. Now they are divorced (less than 2 years). There was no way for the person to realize that their now ex-spouse had many issues, especially psychological, that were not resolvable… If they had gone out a little longer it might have been evident, or at least there might have been a “nagging feeling” that something might be wrong so that they can check it out.
akcc:
Of course the Gedolim are correct, but you bring up the good point that everyone should ask their Rav, as their are specifics that a general Psak does not and CAN NOT cover.
(sorry Mod, I know its a “ask your Rav post”)
There is the famous story with the Satmar rov and Rav Bick. The Satmar Rov wanted 2 dates instead of the customary 8, and said “Katzti bechayay mipnei bnos bnei ches” ( a pun on “ches” meaning Hittites and 8. Rav Bick said, “You say 2 because you’re a mesader kiddushin. I say 8 because I’m a mesar gittin”.
This is truly the type of question that can’t be decided by anyone other than your daas Torah. One distant relative of mine went to a seminary where she was told that the yesod of marriage is “vayakam baboker vehenei hi leah”- you think you’re marrying Rochel, but you end up with Leah. Very bleak and depressing, but the main point is that there will always be adjustments and unpleasant surprises after marriage. People also have to discover that marriage is about giving instead of getting, which is tough for many.
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