Short Dating Time

The Satmar Rebbe advocated dating only twice before engagement while R’ Bik held that the dating should extend till seven dates.

They once met & the Satmar Rebbe accused R’ Bik of promoting pritzus, R’ Bik responded, “you are mesader keddushin – I’m mesader gittin – trust me – seven dates it is”!!

Notpashut, the story I heard marginally differs. The satmar rebbe complained about 8 dates, and quoted the passuk “Katzti bechayay mipnei bnos bnei ches”, a pun onthe word “ches” meaning the Hittites and the number 8. Rav Bik replied with his now-famous line of the difference between a mesader kiddushin and a mesader gittin.

I heard a statistic that 85% of today’s divorces are preventable. It’s just a question of people not willing to make it work. The other 15% of course are the hidden problems etc.

Don’t get me started on the too few dates issue. I get very upset by the very short time young couples spend in each other’s company before making the life-altering decision to get married and possibly bring children into the world. I think the system needs a huge overhaul, the kids need to get the shidduch stars out of their eyes and cash a reality check, and society at large has to stop pushing our children into early serious lifelong commitments for which they are unprepared and of which they have singularly unrealistic expectations. If it’s a good shidduch after 8 dates, it should be an even better shidduch after 20.

forget short dates….what about the fact that everyone seems to be looking for the perfect spouse instead of someone they can get along with and grow together with….y does ur spouse need to be perfect? y can a husband and wife never get into fights? y can they not have disagreements? these things are all a part of life and must be dealt with…maybe more marriges would last if people tried to work at them rather than just say we fight to much so lets get a divorce

im only 17 so what do i no but this is what it seems like to me

and this has nothing to do with not enough dates but it has to do with marriage so its kinda relevant

Perhaps it is the responsibility of the Rabbis and Rebbetzins who mentor in the Yeshiva and Seminaries to talk tachlis to all the mature candidates in the Shidduch Parsha. The Parents on both sides also need to present Marriage in a very realistic way. What I mean is for them to give suggestions how to treat their potential life partner. Practical things (also need to be addressed) like surviving in the Material World i.e. covering rent, monthly expenses… Maybe the number of troubled Marriages would decrease if Significant people were involved in a relaxed manner.

beacon – it still is.

If one dates for a longer period of time, one is able to find out certain things that only become evident with time. For example, whether he/she is selfish, egotistical, has habits that you cannot live with, mental/psychological issues ect.. also, if he has certain attitudes that might result in abuse (c”v)….

im only 17 so what do i no but this is what it seems like to me

well im not exactly 17 but i think im far from qualified to say anything. but

i think your spouse should b ur closest friend. as w/ friends, get to know them, get to like them, accept their faults knowing that you are not perfect either, & sharing the most w/ them out of anyone else you know, they will be your closest friend. & i dont know about you, but i dont drop my friends just because we dont agree or are in a fight. i try to work through it because i value them more than… whatever i would be gaining from not making up.

am i disillusioned or something? because it all seems clear in my head.

an open book, i agree with you 100%. a friend is a most valueable asset to everyone’s life and should not be dropped bec of silly or petty things (or even valid disagreenment.) with time, patience and effort problems can be solved, however both parties have to have mutual feelings toward each other and be willing to work on the relationship. that having been said, a husband is the ultimate, closest of friends and has to be someone who you will feel comfortable sharing everything with and accepting them as they are, not with plasn to change them to be how you want. all friendships eventually encounter some bump in the roads, and a marriage is no different and therefore, you have to know the way of dealing with it. it really bothers me when you hear/see of ppl who break up relationships (marriage or friendships) bec of issues that with some care can be resolved…am i suppose one way of preventing (or lessening) the rate of such, in marriages, would prob be by enlongating the dating period, so that each person gets to know the REAL person within the person they are dating.

however, as with everything, we must have alot of siyata d’shmaya,f aith and emunah and Hashem will guide us all!

Joseph- show us your case study

Joseph, the people who date very short also live in societies where divorce is much more taboo (not that it doesnt happen, just that its not as rampant). People stay in terrible marriages to avoid the taboo of raising their kids alone.

You will never find out “everything” you need to know and short dating can work, as long as you have uncovered the most important things and are both being intellectually honest with each other. There is no magic amount of time.

Also, I had a friend who dated her husband for 3 months (short in my circles) and then got married 3 months later. Turned out he was addicted to painkillers. He was able to hide it quite easily. He even had just come out of rehab when they met. No one except his parents knew so all the research in the world wouldnt help. They got divorced (and thankfully didnt have kids).

Teen, An Open Book, I think you’ll do well. Just one thing you should know: true, we accept our own imperfections so may feel hypocritical being turned off by another’s. BUT if as you go out, something you’ve noticed continues to bother you take that as a sign that it will always bother you. And if there is anything more serious than that, something that shows seriously flawed middos or dangerous tendencies (controlling, abuse, e.g.) RUN. You can always talk to a shadchan in a way that leaves the door open in the former case, “Maybe we can revisit in a year or so if we’re both available,” but you’re always better off by erring on the side of caution.

teen: i didn’t say it was easy to do, & i don’t think it is. but i don’t see how shorter/longer dating period really helps. isn’t it more about the outlook of each person?

Joseph

“SJS – Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)”

That is completley incorrect.

A family friend of ours is a social worker who councels many people who are terribly unhappy in their marriges (and are even being abused) from those communities that date less.

You cannnot belive the number of people from those communities that want out of their marrige but they don’t want to get divorce because then they will get a bad name-divorcing is very tabbo in their communities.

And just because people are married that doesn’t mean that they are happy or are not being abused in a marrige.

You have no idea who really has a happy marrige as you are not with every couple in the community that you are refering to 24/7

People that are in an abusive relationship it is very difficult for them to walk away.

A woman told me that she was in an abusive marrige for 15 years and she finally got the guts to get a divorce.

I am not sure if you are aware now but Gedolim have come out strongly today saying that a couple needs to date at least 8-10 times with the “Divorce?broken engagment criss”.

Joseph,

you said “Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)”

Again, can you tell us from were and how you got this information?

Why do you beleive this to be the case?

oomis – it is.

Many times the communities/circles that date less are also the ones that the couples would never get divorced, as they will not be able to find another spouse…

I know of someone who dated for a short time and was not able to find out about the spouse’s state of mental health. If one does not date over the course of a few weeks, in different settings and times of day (It does not have to be every night, but rather once or twice a week for a few weeks….) then one cannot be sure of who the person really is. Someone told me that they recommend to people that at least one of the dates be more then a lobby or a meal and be something like board games, miniature golf ect (depending on the circle) so that the other person can see their competitive nature and if they could dare to lose. Are they too competitive, poor losers, too serious about a silly game, or gloating if they win? It shows a different side to the person. Yes, I know that this would not be acceptable in every community but for those that would, it could be a good idea.

Joseph, in my experience it is not. My children are friendly with young women with whom they have worked in B”Y type environments. Several of these girls became engaged after a very short time (a few short weeks), got married soon after, and divorced within a year’s time. I don’t believe this is an anomaly. It is a possibly preventable tragedy. Getting to know someone better is always a good idea. I said it before and I will say it one mroe time – a shidduch that is good after 8 dates will be as good or better after 20.

If the family has researched thoroughly and the dating is focused on “tachlis”, 8 times should be plenty.

coke- where did you go that you could play boggle??

Joseph,

You said “The rule is the opposite. Shorter dating = healthier marriages & less divorces. (There are exceptions to every rule.)”

A number of the posters that disagree with you backed themselves with either stories that they themselves have seen, or from speaking to therapists or other professionals.

You have failed to bring a single reason why you hold as you do. You just keep insisting that things are that way, do you have a reason for assuming this to be true or not? If you have a reason please post it.

I was once in chasidishe camp for a summer to help out with a program, and in that time i made some very close chasidishe friends that do very short dating times. We discussed this openly and they all confirmed that their parents do tons of info (in which MIDDOS are thoroughly researched), they marry pretty much the same family background (which solves a lot of problems), and do very little dating in which the goal is to see if they feel comfortable with eachother. SOme come from large families where they are all extremely happily married.

In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.

U cannot generalize, but Dr. Yael Respler, who is clearly NOT chasidish, and deals with marriage counseling more than any of us, tremendously encourages chasidish dating. She said if this can be done by the litvish/modern there would much less divorces.

In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.

I have a few issues with this (for me – not for people that the system works for).

1) It rushes the physical relationship. I was happy that I was able to truly know my husband before anything physical could possible happen.

2) I wanted to know and respect (and in my case love) my husband BEFORE marrying him. What happens if you spend extended time together and decide the person might be wonderful and respectful and have great middos – and even compatible personality wise, but there is just something missing. It happens plenty of times while dating, but now you are stuck in a marriage.

I doubt this system would work for most people I know. That doesnt mean its wrong for everyone though, and I can understand the feeling of relief knowing that your parents basically pick out your spouse and as long as you are compatible, you make it work.

Joseph, while the person may have been an adam gadol, that statement doesnt have any backing. Did they do a full research study on the happiness of marriages? Can they quantify happiness in marriage? Like I said, you can quanitify divorce, but you cannot quantify happiness.