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Tonight 4 members of shomrim were shot. (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=69496)
My questions to you are:
Should they be armed?
Should we leave this to the NYPD?
Is it halachicly permitted for them to put their lives on the line when there is an NYPD? (Al yaamod adam bimakom sakanah)…
Do you think it was “heroic” when a Shomrim member last week pointed his radio (pretending it was a gun) at an armed bank robber just three days ago? http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=69038
If it’s a halachic question, ask a posek.
I wouldn’t think such a guy would necessarily be armed. it would help though if they’re truly dealing with such dangerous people. (i’m from OOT, i don’t have hands on experience from what they do, so it could be i’m wrong)
If they want to jump in when guns are blazing, let them get bulletproof vests or let them stay home & not be oiver a d’Oiraisha. Thats why we have police, who are dressed appropriately & trained in taking down armed criminals,
as opposed to an education from the baigel shop, & bruce lee. Don’t get me wrong, I love em, but if youre dealing with armed individuals please take the necessary precautions.
1.
They may have the right to be armed (as well as you and me – 2nd amendment) but they shouldn’t carry weapons. Besides that in New York it isn’t that easy to obtain arms, I believe that as an armed patrol force it may be illegal. But, it isn’t a matter of legality, it is a matter of safety. You must go through extensive training to be a cop. Just like you have a weapon, the criminal does and he’ll shoot.
2,
Yes. It should be left to the Police dept. Lives should not be placed in danger because of some money. In Halacha, you are not allowed to call police on Shabbos when all it involves is money (only at a Chashash Pikuach Nefesh). They have no business being at every other investigation or car accidents. There’s nothing they can do and should stick to basic patrolling and leaving the rest up to the cops.
3,
It is 100% Assur!
Even in a place of Pikuach Nefesh (a time where everything is permitted except 3 Aveiros) it is Assur. You are not in control of your Guf and you cannot decide to play games.
4,
You cannot deny that it was an heroic move (if I jump down the Empire State Building it is heroic as well). However, it was dead wrong!
Its one thing to corral a guy when all he’s got is a stick or a pipe (bats can kill, so I won’t include that).
But a gun? No, that’s beyond what Shomrim should try to contain. Unless, there is imminent danger to someone else, I’d say, let the guy escape.
I have a lot of respect and appreciation for what Shomrim do. –
I think we need to ask a shaiyla.
As far as having Shomrim carrying guns? – That is NOT going to happen. Getting a carry permit in this city is almost impossible, and it requires not only serious training regarding the weapon itself, but psychological screening of the individual, and training regarding rules of engagement, i.e. WHEN it is legal and appropriate to draw and fire a weapon.
Shikur- As much as its safer for them to be armed, i don’t think they can take the chance of having a gun in their home where there are children- its too risky. But I do think they should have some protection- a bulletproof vest or s/t.
my thoughts when i heard this were ‘omg these guys are on the front lines! they need guns! i am sure that like me, not many realized this until now unfortunately. and you know what? chaveirim misaskim and all the rest are too – but they need money to stay alive, not guns. lets donate!
It one thing to follow and report and another to confront. The call should have been made to 911 and the location should have been observed. Civilian patrols should not be armed. This is what happens when untrained people try to do the job of the police.
Unfortunately, the government is making it seem like everything is honky dory, which is not the case. The government wants people to shop & spend, hoping that will pick up the econonmy, but people don’t have the money to spend. Those that are debt free, have learned their lesson and think twice or more before that purchase. I don’t want to sound pessimistic, but it is what it is.
The fact that there is less money, is making people desperate. Well we see that crime has gone up, despite what the police dept is saying that crime lower. The past few weeks we have seen shootings which were practically unheard of in Boro Park and Flatbush. Although the NYPD do try their hardest, it is still not enough and they can’t be their so fast or sometimes it just seems like they can’t get there fast enough. The job the shomrim do is commendable. We do need their protection, but they need to be better protected themselves. Maybe, vests and more proper training, like martial arts. Maybe a forum to inform the community of the higher incidence of crime and how to better protect themselves and be viligant at all times. Maybe more cameras to watch the neighborhoods.
All in all, we do need them. Many neighborhoods have neighborhood watches. They do put their lives on the line. This pervert has a gun. C’V, he could have tried to take one of our children. Wouldn’t we do anything to protect our children??? Even if it meant risking our lives to save them?? That is what the Shomrim did. For those who say it was not worth the risk, I say to you, it was, to protect those sweet innocent jewish children.
“Shomrim Member Shot – What’s Your Thoughts?”
they should all have a refuah shlaima.
Amen
for all those who said they were all wrong, i don’t know about you, but it probably didn’t seem like such a dangerous situation. How should they know he was armed? Lemaasa, they should all ask a shayla
Can someone tell me what exactly shomrim does?
Just like Hatzolah and Misaskim, which do everything under the auspices of their Rabbanim, Shomrim too should get a Rav to set guidelines Al Pi Torah!
EDITED
They should all have a Refuah Shleima, a speedy recovery,
and a Kesivah V’chasimah Toivah to them and all of klal Yisroel!
Y’all have a Gut Shabbos!
is it possibal that you are saying motzei shem ra about people who save jewish life????? YOU may be right on a minority of them, but they are still doing an unbelievable job, protecting us, and your saying lashon hara about them??
its very hard to talk about them they do alot of good work and they deserve alot of credit for what they are doing … if they should have guns definitly yes they are being attacked by guns they are aloud to have guns for self defense specaily for the type of work they are doing they are not even diferent then a nypd they are maybe even better them…
after many thousands of times of the shomrin guarding our possessions and our lives and our children from perverts and worse, we, who have been protected, now we dare to convene here and sit in judgment of them.
how despicable and how lowly, how shameful.
NYPD volunteers do not carry weapons; kal v’chomer, a volunteer group who are not officially trained should also not carry weapons.
MAMASH- every officer in the NYPD carries a gun. Look closer next time.
He said NYPD *volunteers*, which means Auxiliary Police.
ps if my words seem a little out of synch with the comments above, i was referring primarily to numerous deleted posts (as well as the concept of there being such a thread in the first place)
Mod 80. I’m guessing I was one of those deleted comments. Hopefully the way this is worded now meets the criteria for acceptable.
I don’t see anyone criticising “shomrim” as a group or singling out individial members for criticism. What people are saying is that putting on a shomrim jacket does not make you invincible or transform you into superman. Seichel must rule the day. Perhaps more training is necessary?
I remember as bachur in a yeshiva out of town, we were members of the local “civilian patrol”. Rule number 1 was stay in the car. Rule number 2 was make sure the doors were locked. Rule number 3 was call the cops when you finished with 1 and 2.
Perhaps it should also be mentioned that if you see a crime being committed call 911 first, not shomrim.
it should be noted that the dispatcher had called 911 before shomrim arrived on scene and the members had no reason to think the guy was armed
1) May they all have a speedy refua shelaima.
2) Thank you for removing a dangerous predator from our neighborhoods. Who knows which family may have had to go thru a lifetime of anguish if this vile and depraved individual hadn’t been stopped.
3) Stay safe.
Finally they are getting bulletproof vests.
It’s about time they finally realised what the shomrim do for our community
May they all have a speedy
refua shelaima.
K’siva V’chasima Tova.
Refuah shelaima to them. No matter what ANYONE thinks, these are men, who like the volunteers for Hatzolah, are truly moser nefesh for the benefit of the klal. Perhaps they shouldnot get in over their heads, but the fact is, they are very dedicated and deserve our tefilos.
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