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rabbiofberlin – I’m not debating whether one should accept the opinion of the Chazon Ish or not, as should have been obvious from the language of my post. All I am saying is that my rav (Rav Yitzchak Abadi) told me firsthand that the Chazon Ish told him firsthand that shaking hands is yehareg v’al ya’avor. You can be skeptical, but for me that is a reliable source. Again, I am not saying anyone is bound to the Chazon Ish’s opinion. I am merely commenting on your implication that he never said it.
SHOMER NIGIA???
I ENDORSE IT COMPLETELY!
HOW CAN I GIVE A DONATION TO SUCH A GREAT CAUSE?
Best Regards,
yitainingwut- I did not necessarily assert that the Chazon Ish did not say what you said- just that it is one “shittah” and not necessarily the dominant one. Rav Abadi is surely a good witness to the Chazon Ish’s words-although,as the Chazon Ish died in 1953- close to sixty years ago- Rav Abadi must have been awfully young then….
Testimony of a witness is valid after any amount of time, and besides, he wasn’t “awfully” young. I resent your tone.
Yitay: Actually, I believe there is a Chayei Adam that says something about someone not being allowed to give a P’sak as a Gadol based on what he remembers his Rebbe saying from when he was a Kattan, or something like that. (the irony of that statement is that it’s entirely possible that I saw that Chayei Adam before I was 13, which is probably part of the reason that I’m not positive about exactly what he said.)
Sam2 – I am aware of that halacha (ironically, Rabbi Abadi alludes to this point in the first teshuva of his sefer). He was not a katan though. I believe he was in his late teens when he developed a relationship with the Chazon Ish, who eventually sent him to Lakewood to learn by R’ Aharon Kotler.
I don’t understand. According to those that say (Sam?) that it is less of a problem for a guy to touch a gentile woman than a Jewish woman, is it also less of an issue for a Jewish woman to touch a gentile man than it is to do so to a Jewish man?
Why?
yitay- is Rav Abadi- ad meah veesrim- in his late seventies?
rabbiofberlin – yes
as far as i know, min hatorah, having a girl friend is no issur at all, and if the girl keeps hilchos tahara then the boy friend may even touch her… but todays days, we need a lot a lot of gedarim not to get to this, for chas veshalom i don’t want to think if the ultra orthodox community got into this…
Shomer negia is applicable even to a non-immediate relative single girl that is tahor.
babygoose:
Sorry to break it into you, we accepted HaShem’s COMPLETE Torah, not only the bit bible you’ve read.
???? ??????? ?? ???..?????..
??? ??????? ???? ???..
???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???..
When it comes to ????? we may not expound when less than four are present, lest one ?”? error in this matter of great natural inclination.
Nothing AT ALL to do with your “ultra orthodox community”, just a regular off the street Torah keeping Jew.
Oh, and by the way it’s not as you’ve phrased it “lot of gedarim..” it’s an old invention from the days of David Hamelech.
Ders: That you’re wrong on. Making up an Issur D’Oraisa is Bal Tosif.
Zees: You are very correct that Yichud is Assur. Mods, can we delete Babygoose’s post and all the responses to it? This isn’t the place for such a discussion.
anyone heard of a Rav?
anyone heard of a Rav?
The question should be, “Anybody listen to their Rav?” Almost everybody has heard this stuff from Rabbanim, th eproblem is that they don’t take it seriously, consider it a chumra, etc, etc etc….
Good morning.
Someone decided to wake up an old thread.
So, for my part, what I didn’t understand in the whole long discussion was the poster (was that you oomis?) who thought keeping Shabbos is in the W”T (I realized the poster meant Written Torah) but being shomer negia is not in the W”T.
What? Yes, Shabbos is in the 10 Commandments. So is the prohibition against arayos. Nowhere in the W”T are the 39 melachos of Shabbos mentioned. So nowhere in the W”T do you find out you can’t grind peppercorns onto your salad or pick out the little bits of scallion you don’t like or pick the herbs in your windowbox or turn on the dishwasher on Shabbos. You have to study Halacha for that through Torah Shebe’al Peh. Likewise for arayos, where the details are in Torah Shebe’al Peh.
It’s unfortunate that some people find the weak Torah observance by the earliest immigrants to America to be normative or even preferred behaviour. Nobody is trying to judge them, the challenges were immense; but longing nostalgically for the bad old days before Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Moshe, the Satmar Rav, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and many others too numerous to list brought true Torah observance to America, is foolish and misguided.
Negia of chiba is assur, and yehareg v’al yavor, as mentioned above. Negia not of chiba (like paying at a cash register) is permitted l’chatchila.
I would like to mention that there is a discussion in the nosei keilim of shulchan aruch whether embarrassing another yid would fall under yehareg v’al yavor. This is because embarrassing another yid may constitute an abizrayhu De’retzicha.
That being said, I think we should aknowledge that many great leaders of the yeshivish community considered handshaking to be yehareg v’al yavor, while many of the great German rabbis would shake the hands of all their congregants, men and women, on the Shabbos.
As such every individual should recognize what community they are part of and accept the psak of their leader.
Gilui arayos (i.e, adultery) are yeihareig v’al yaavor aveiros. If in fact, you are correct in the assertion that even the shaking of a woman’s hand is considered the same level and one should die before doing that, then please explain to me why a man who seduces an unmarried woman (non-arusah)is supposed to marry her, and they are not put to death, as would be someone who was guilty of the aforementioned arayos. I imagine he would rather be forced to get married, than allow himself to be killed (well, in most cases, anyway).
OOmis -We down on this earth – meaning the Bais Din don’t kill for a Non-married woman even if she is a Niddah. Kareis is a punishment from Hashem. But we punish him down here with forcing him to marry her, amongst other punishments. Yeihareig v’al yaavor, includes Aveiros of Kareis, as far as I know.
Oomis, ther is a difference between an obligation to be “rather killed than transgress” and the post-factum chiyuv misa.
What if she doesn’t mind?
The term shomer negia is used by those who look at it as a chumrah akin to cholov Yisroel. Something that frummies are concerned with. And, as I am sure you are all aware of and have seen, there is no question that the negiah they refer to is absolutely related to chibah.
But it is not a chumrah, it is basic Halacha.
The real issue is that there are those who promote being shomer negiah as optional from a halachic standpoint. Which is a terrible misrepresentation.
Oomis,
Your mistake is assuming that yehareg ve’al yavor is because they are subject to capital punishment. The Gemara does not cite that as a reason. These are not cases of “matzilin oso benafsho”. There are issurei arayos that you clearly include that are not chiyuvei misa but you would include( incestuous acts) Most of the issurim read on Yom Kippur are chiyuvei kares, not misa.
And there are instance where you say yehareg even by clearly minor issues. Like by shas Hashmad.
I just make sure to be holding something so that no woman will extend her hand to me and I will be forced to create an issue.
An recent article regarding new neuroscience research on handshakes found,
This puts a new light on the fact that some poskim find a handshake assur in all circumstances, as if it were considered an act of chiba, and others do permit the handshake under certain circumstances.
Of course, halacha lema’aseh, we follow the guidance of our Rav.
But interesting nevertheless.
Yeihareig v’al yaavor, includes Aveiros of Kareis, as far as I know. “
If that is so, then why are there supposedly only THREE Y”VY, avoda zara, shfichus damim, and arayos (which all seem to be interconnected, by the way, as one can lead to the other two)? Again, I am NOT being sarcastic? We do not learn these things in depth in Girls’ Yeshivah classes or even in Seminary, but I have never hear my own rov say what has been asserted here by some, and I intend to ask him about it.
Oomis, only krisos of arayos are included in “yehareg ve’lo ya’avor”.
Tahini: Very profound comment! Probably the most sensible one on this thread!
Recaived a p’sak ages ago that i may fit shoes on a boy over bar mitzvah, or even remove the sheos he is wearing and measure his feet since ???? ??????? ????.
Maybe that helps also in a business that requires shaking hands?
[please do not rely on my p’sak – ask your own rav before you measure anyone’s feet!]
Shoestore a, should that maybe be a “Tes” not a “Tav” in that last word?
Golfer,
No, it’s spelled correctly. Like ???? ???? ???? by Yitzchak’s brachah to Esav, it means when you have cause to cry. As Rashi says ???? ???. Here too, one’s business is causing oneself pain. A craftsman is paining himself with his work.
REALLY?!?
I won’t rely on your Rav’s psak until I am in your shoes… ^_^
Shoe Store Assistant:
The Lamdanim would say “Arbes tzu a vant”. (Bokis in Torah too)
If you wanna shake someone’s hand with your foot (as a shinui) maybe that would be permitted.
Tarid with a Tav means to go down which you must do to remove someone’s shoes…
Maybe that helps also in a business that requires shaking hands?
The handshake is not the business itself, it’s a personal touch which encourages a closeness (cordiality) which makes it easier to do business.
Thanks, ZK.
No kidding, Mr 42!
oomis1105 There is a concept that an abizrayu of the Gimmel Chamuros is also yeharog vel yaavor. I don’t think I can define abizraihu accurately but it means a sin which is related to or may be a mini version of the gimmel chamuros somehow. For example, some achronim believed that embarrassing a fellow yid, although one does not get missah, has a din of yeharog veal yaavor. This is based on the mishna that compares embarrassing another Jew to retzicha. As such many issurim in the inyan of kiduushahs habris go under the guidelines of abizraiu degilu arayos.
my shver, a well respected rav, was asked by a frum guy who got an offer to work for another frum guy only on condition that hed shake hands with goyishe women, if theres an heter for this. My shver replied: theres only one heter: naases lo keheter…ve hamevin yovin
Excuse my ignorance, What could be so wrong in shaking a woman’s hand in a professional setting? its not as if your touching her in a preemptive asking sort of way?
And for heavens sake I’m Jewish she is not…
Jimmy Savile -“Excuse my ignorance, What could be so wrong in shaking a woman’s hand in a professional setting? its not as if your touching her in a preemptive asking sort of way?”
Why don’t you read All the posts in the topic before commenting?
A lot of Poskim hold it’s Assur, just like any touching of any women, except the few that you can touch. You can’t be trusted that you won’t enjoy it. It’s not the same thing as sitting next to a woman on a bus.
Well JS, considering your screen-name, you probably know what’s wrong with shaking young women’s hands in a professional setting…
Sam2 -“HaLeiVi: I once asked Rav Schachter about handshakes. He said that if she’s pretty it’s probably Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. If she’s not, it’s probably Muttar Lechatchilah.”
This might be a first, but I am more Meikel than this. IMHO, even if the woman looks good – this would only be if you noticed that. If during let’s say an interview for a job, the woman stuck out her hand, I’d shake it. Because in such a situation, you wouldn’t really notice that aspect, because the job applicant is too nervous. So I personally think this clause of “if she’s pretty”, is Not absolute.
Jewish Jews are not allowed to touch members of the opposing gender. That’s part of the set of instructions the Great Inventor handed down to us. We follow, we don’t ask why, we don’t compromise.
When a shake a woman’s hand at work I am NOT thinking what you I dare say one track minded people might think I’m thinking of, I am doing the accepted thing culturally, similarly shaking a males hand after a meeting. It is accepted practice amongst the business world…
Jimmy Savile -“When a shake a woman’s hand at work I am NOT thinking what you I dare say one track minded people might think I’m thinking of, I am doing the accepted thing culturally, similarly shaking a males hand after a meeting. It is accepted practice amongst the business world…”
There are those that say it’s ok in this situation. But acc. to others it’s still not allowed. Why? Because touching any woman that you’re not allowed to – is wrong, no matter what your intention.
Jimmy: If that’s actually true of you in every situation then there’s actually no problem. But you can’t know that. What if she is very attractive? And what about all the other men out there who aren’t as strong-willed as you are and will slip in this area? It’s such an easy line to cross. It takes a split-second (even during a brisk handshake) to go from just shaking hands to noticing that she’s pretty. It might actually be Muttar if you know yourself and that there are Mamash no issues. But it’s just not worth it.
Health: I don’t think so. I think everyone agrees that not Derech Chibah is Muttar Lechatchilah (see Kesuvos 17a). The only issue is whether not Derech Chibah can actually exist in a practicaly, everyday situation.
Next time you guys end a business meeting, [you ar advised to sign a contract first, or you might lose the customer], bend down, udo the fellow’s shoelaces, loosen the shoe, pull it oof, slide your hand around his foot, put it on a ruler, then fit him with four different pairs of shoes, taking off and putting on each on, feeling round the shoe and sock when he both stands and sits, …
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