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what’s the halacha i didn’t grow up with it
unclear
if ur asking that you never kept it and want to know if you have to, then yes
if you are asking a halachic specification of Shomer Negia and what it entails, this is not the place to discuss that, ask your LOR but in short Pshuto kemashma’oh
it’s a touchy subject
Same as the halacha is if you didn’t grow up with kosher.
touche
Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
Toi is correct. Sam2 is becoming a right-wing fanatic.
sam2 is correct ( in his response to toi). he simply follows halacha and not political views.
The Shulchan Aruch is a right-wing fanatic?
Yaaharog v’al yavor to do it for pleasure.
Think: We assume that most Negiyah, and certainly all Negiyah within a relationship, is Derech Chibah V’ta’avah. Everything except for incidental contact with strangers, really.
Forbidden, like making a right on red in New York.
Sam – correct, however I’ve met people who were under the opinion that even accidental touching so I wanted to clarify that point.
Sam2, are you taking that to a business handshake? I think that’s one area where the ‘wings’ come in to play. Either way (or wing), it can’t be Yeihareg V’al Yaavor.
The Chazon Ish writes shaking a woman’s hand, even for business, is Yeihareg V’al Yaavor.
The “business handshake” is not a “wing” issue.
For instance, there are many people who are quite frum and not meikilim in halacha but who hold it’s okay to shake hands with a woman in a business context and the like, albeit (in my understanding) with provisions. Those are, say, if a woman extends her hand to shake yours AND it would cause her pain/shame if you, even very nicely, explain that you don’t shake hands with the opposite gender.
Ask your LOR, but this is not a “wing” issue.
haleivi- I believe the chazon ish held handshakes is yaharog v’al yeaver. I saw that in maaseh ish. He said it is like all abizrayu dearayus.
Perhaps the Chazon Ish waas talking in the context of his time and place, where they all knew the score and it can never be considered completely innocent by first generation OTDs.
America might be different, though. It doesn’t cross a goy’s mind that something is wrong with a formal handshake.
I understand that it has to do with Halachic opinions, but the Halacha depends on how normal it is and how integrated you are. Therefore, it usually follows the ‘wings’.
HaLevi, you are wrong. The answer depends on if it is considered derech chiba or not. And adaraba, when a Goy shakes a frum woman’s hand, I would be concerned about it being derech chiba. It does not have to do with the handshakes being a normal part of the protocol or not.
HaLeiVi: I once asked Rav Schachter about handshakes. He said that if she’s pretty it’s probably Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. If she’s not, it’s probably Muttar Lechatchilah. And I was intentionally vague about it because what is considered Derech Chibah can be so different based on the time and place. (I know of a prominent Rabbi who once told kids in a co-ed high school that high-fives were fine, but those would certainly be Derech Chibah and Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor in other communities.)
Rivivos Ephraim (8) http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1082&st=&pgnum=490 interestingly in this little piece by the case of the women on the bus it says vzeh gam…
MDD: She wouldn’t have Chibah and we don’t care what his Kavanos are.
Rav Moshe has 3 or 4 teshuvos in the Igros Moshe where he keeps repeating it is prohibited to shake a woman’s hand in business. Two of Rav Moshe’s teshuvos prohibit it even if she offers her hand first to you.
Sam4: Some interesting points in there. Are you trying to be Medayek from how he only mentions twice “Laseis Yad L’ishah”. It’d be interesting, but I don’t think that’s what he meant. The bus thing and change things are also interesting, especially because R’ Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer both clearly say that the bus is okay.
Sam2, are you serious? According to you, a Jewish lady is allowed to let someone be nogea in her with intentions of chiba? Chas ve’sholom, lo tehey zos be’Yisroel!
Shtiky shlo, it is spelled: “ches”, “yud”,”beis”,”hey”.
Mdd: That’s not what I meant to imply, but when you put it that way it sounds bad. My point was it’s just a handshake. If he wants to think whatever he wants about a handshake that’s his problem. Someone could be the most Tznius person in the world and if a person wants to enjoy looking at her he will. We can’t and aren’t obligated to prevent Menuvalim from being Menuvalim. If a Menuval wants a handshake to be Derech Chibah, that’s not our concern. If she is attracted to him and shaking his hand is Derech Chibah for her, then it’s a problem.
once upon a time
there wasnt such a concept as shomer negia
and lots of women didnt cover their hair
there were no seperate seating buses
and guys and girls talked freely.
when did the change happen and was it good or bad?
(BTW i also didnt grow up with the idea of shomer negia i only learnt about it in 9th grade)
Sam2, what I mean is that in the case of a Jewish woman shaking hands with a Goy, we should have if not a total assumption then at least a very strong chashash that he is doing it with chibah in mind. Therefore, when she does it, she basically allows herself to be touched for chibah purposes.
Shticky shlo, chibah means affection.
“I think that’s one area where the ‘wings’ come in to play”
If your a guy you should never shake a chicks wing.
Sam2- Why wouldnt that be ????? ??? if she is aware of his intentions?
Yungerman: I don’t think she’s his only option for Assur thoughts, unless she is so attractive that she actually is considered Trei Ivrei D’nahara.
menucha12,
once upon a time
we feared getting nuked by the russians
drinking was the way to cope with life
parents freely spanked their children
and harassment was part of the job
We need to get it out of our heads that what was in the past is worthy of our nostalgia.
Yungerman1, a Goy is not metzuve on this.
I have a few questions:
1.) How could it be Yahrog Vlo Yavvor isn’t that only for “Arayos”?
2.) Isn’t not touching a woman you aren’t married too only a derobonon?
3.) If it is Doraisa were in a posuk do we learn that you cannot touch a woman?
4.) Isn’t even being Boel a Pnuyah just a Laav like eating Treif, and isnt it not listed with Aryos in the Torah
5.) Since when are Lavvin (as bad as they may be and as much as they should not be done) Yahrog Vaal Yaavor (and the Laav here isn’t touching, it is being boel!!!!!)?
6.) Why would this Laav be included in “Aryaos” if it is not called “Gilui Aryos” in the Torah??
menucha12 – There was never a time that the concept of shomer negiah and covering hair didn’t exist. Because you didn’t hear about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It is standard halacha and always existed.
It’s almost like someone who didn’t grow up frum saying “When did this Shabbos thing start, it didn’t exist when I was growing up?”
menuchah: You are talking about 4 very different things.
I just want to correct one poster (csar) who quotes reb moshe as saying it is assur. Not true. All he says is that it would be difficult for a “baal nefesh’ to ne meikil. (Look up the wording of his actual teshuva)
exlakewoooder,
The prohibition of touching is included among the arayot in Acharai Mot (chapter 18) and Kedoshim (Ch 20).
We easily assume that all single ladies are not tahor. A Nidah is considered like all other arayot (Ramabam – Issurai Biah – Chap 4)
I do not really understand what this whole discussion is about.
The halacha states clearly that it is assur to touch the opposite gender unless it is your immediate relative.
Period. Done.
It is not a chumra of any kind but a serious sin if trangressed.
Exlakewooder, it says in the parsha of arayos:”velo sikarvu legalos erva…”. This is the mekor. A pnuya, who became a nidda de’oraisa (when and how is a different shmuz), is an erva. Shulchan aruch paskens that all lavin of the 3 chamuros are yehareg ve’lo’yaavor.
bp27- well put
Just a note to the gnereal populace of the CR : If someone asks a question and it is clae that person might be either a baal teshuvah or interested in learning more about Judaism, it would help for you to refrain from using expressions in Hebrew or Aramaic, that they could possibly not know.
For example, “derech chiba.” Why could people not simply say, in an affectionate manner, when trying to differentiate between casual contact such as bumping against someone on the subway and holding the hand of someone of the opposite gender. What purpose is served by using expressions that cannot clarify the meaning for that person? There are many words and expressions that have been used here, that are of questionable value to the OP, if that person did not understand what you were saying.
“It’s almost like someone who didn’t grow up frum saying “When did this Shabbos thing start, it didn’t exist when I was growing up?”
No, with all due respect, it really is not. Shabbos is one of the Aseres HaDibros. Shmiras Negiah is not as beferush in the Written Torah. The W”T assers certain UNIONS between specific individuals, most notably incest and adultery. But it does not spell out what forms of contact are assur beyond “ish ki yishkav…” and then just lists the people who may not cohabit.
Yet the punishment for a man who seduces a virgin who is not halachically engaged (me-u-reses) to another man (as opposed to “engaged” as we understand the concept today), is far less severe than for one who commits adultery or has relations with a girl who is halachically engaged (as opposed to what we call “engaged” today). These halachos are spelled out in the Gemarah, but they are certainly not clear from the Torah that we lein, whereas Shabbos is upfront a mitzvah of zachor v’shamor. yes, we learn exactly what that entails from the Oral Law, but we know from the outset that keeping Shabbos IS the law.
By negiah, we are not so certain from the W”T what that means, only that certain physical relations are assur. I don’t know if I am expressing myself well here, but I feel it is a subtle difference.
mdd: It’s clear that the passuk of “lo sikr’vu” is an asmachta, as opposed to an explicit source (otherwise negia would be assur to all arayos). This obviously does not make it any less of a source, just a technical note
oomis: You’re right, though in other threads OP showed he has a pretty good grasp of yeshivish.
oomis: Violating Shomer Negia is Arayos and more chumor than violating Shabbos. If a goy put a gun to your head on Shabbos and said turn on the stove, you could turn on the stove. If a goy put a gun to your head — even if you were a single girl — and said hug that man, you would have to let him kill you rather than hug that man.
all you want (or need) to know on this topic can be seen here: http://halachafortoday.law.officelive.com/ArchivesHilchosTzniyusForMen.aspx
Itche, ok, I did not recall his other post. I still feel, for the benefit of the many people who are in the CR who may be less familair with soem expressions, that if the purpose is to inform and educate, it helps to use the terminology that is best understood by all (or use both the Hebrew AND the English meaning). Just in case… We DO want to help people to understand the point we are making. Some people do not know what a “pnuyah” is.
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