Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate

At least the MO will admit there is a problem, the Charedim seem to bury this under a rock even though most seem to have heard of the Anti-Kiruv organization

shlishi,

1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)

This organization has hundreds of members, 95% of them are ex-Hasids (extremely few?) who are hateful and angry, many of which feeling they are being denied the help they need to achieve careerwise, because of ideological differences. (If you seek a career, you are a GOY in those communities). So they leave their communities and toss all Frumkeit.

2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?

The need for a Mod Orth organization doesnt negate the need for a Chareidi organization to interest these ex-Chareidi kids who are going to that despicable organization and leaving all Frumkeit behind.

Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, in addition to extra-curricular activities to keep these kids happy, interested and busy with religious influence.

PuhLease -“This topic disgusts me..”

This could be, but why is my post the whole topic?

“@Health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”

I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.

Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.

There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.

All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.

These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!””

I’m not sure if your attack is just on me or on the whole topic.

Anyway I’ll defend my post. I already explained what I meant by truth is Not s/o’s personal opinion here, but when s/o quotes Torah. If anybody has a problem with what it says in the Torah, I for one, am not going to be apologetic. If they have problems with anything that our Torah teaches, they should be embarrassed & demeaned. If the Torah is not so clear cut and there are Machlokeses -this is not what I’m talking about. Our Halacha is quite clear in most instances. It is these people who have to worried about Yom Kippur, not those who denigrade people who flaunt Halacha.

Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, lectures, warmth, counseling and extra-curricular activities, with religious influence, to keep these kids happy, interested and busy.

Time to realize such an organization is sorely needed.

It seems to me that the Charaidi world is more focused on building and growing. The population is growing fast and the needs in terms of living, both physically and spiritually, are pressing. The scarce resources may be allocated where they are more strategic. To hire one Rebbe for a class may effect 25 students positively. At the same time that salary could be paid for a Kiruv person who will probably influence less people for less time.

I’m not saying that outreach is not important, but one can say that you get more bang for the buck investing in the existing Charaidi system.

Most Charedim do not Like Chabad because of the Messanism.

Oorah raises money for Yeshiva Tuition not really for outreach to “teens in crisis”

The only acceptable activity for many Charedi kids is Learning. Not to say that learning isnt important, but what if a Kid Hates Gemorah. Telling the kid to learn even more Gemorah doesnt always produce a love of learning and can foster a hate in learning.

I think many Chassidic communities even ban Ball Playing DURING THE WEEK so playing sports like basketball can be an unacceptable activity

Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???

No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.

shlishi,

There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is.

Project YES: Very hard to get through to. Certainly not for those who dont want to bang on their doors for months.

Oorah: I know lots of Oorah employees well, and they are one of the most amazing organizations, but their goal is Kiruv R’CHOKIM, NOT Kiruv OTD!!! They work with public school kids and the like. Please get your facts straight.

Chabad: They are NOT doing Kiruv OTD, you have to approach them, which OTD chevra will never do.

Priority-1: I think theyre meant for very serious problems like anti-social issues, suicide risk, etc.

Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children. Most of the above mentioned organizations are for kids in elementary or high school. Im not addressing the problem with kids younger than 18, Im talking young adults who go off on their own and leave Frumkeit, usually when theyre no longer under their parents’ roofs.

Perhaps the Chassidic communities would rather turn a blind eye and give up shaichus to these individuals who dont want to live exactly like them, and do nothing while they stray from Kashrus and Shabbos, for example, rather than help these young adults somewhat modify their lives and have them stay Frum but perhaps less Chassidish or not Chassidish. Its puzzling.

Some posters said MO shouldn’t support UJA, because although it gives them funding, it also supports Footsteps.

Perhaps MO learned from Agudas Yisroel and the Moetzes? After all, at the convention a few years ago, Mayor Bloomberg was honored for the funding he got the yeshivos – while he was campaigning to legalize same-sex marriage in NY!

It’s true that Project YES is hard to get through to, that is something I find a drop troubling since it is headed by Rabbi Yackov Horowitz who is considered by some to be extremley active in OTD.

However there are numerous other orginazations that are dedicated towards OTD though they are much lower profile even though they do amazing things.

In Flatbush There is Rabbi Wallerstiens yeshivos which includes an Middle Elementary school specifiacally designed for kids who are “falling” through the cracks.

I don’t know much about the school know as I do not live in Brooklyn anymore, however when I was in Yeshiva I had a friend who’s father was a Rebbi their and part of his job wass that each time he gave a test he had to make up an individual test tailored towards each kid.

I believe the elementary was called Bircas Shmuel and the Beis Medrash was Ohr Yitzchok.

At the time I was in Yeshiva in Brooklyn it was a known thing that all the Wallerstiens work was done under the direction of Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l.

There is also Our Place.

There is also the one man “storm” of action named Rabbi Mitch Mitnick who has dedicated his life towards OTD kids.

Then in Lakewood there is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi and his Yeshiva dedicated towards helping these children.

There is also Progect Extreme with Rabbi AY Weinberg.

However I will state that from what I have seen personally the most help comes from individual Rabbeim who put their heart and souls into doing everything they can for their talmidim.

I personally stand in awe of what I have seen many Rabbeim do to help their students.

However I am aware of the fact that many Rabbeim are increasingly curtailing their activities in these fields since the danger they are subjecting themselves to is sadly growing day by day.

All they need is one child with emotianal problems or one distraught parent to accuse them of something and theyre entire lives and families lives can be destroyed.

B”H Klal Yisroel still has Men and Women who are willing to risk it , however the risk grows and sadly many are deciding the risks are to great.

And yes, I most definetly am deeply afraid of what will happen in the future.

What a shame this thread drove Feif Un (whom I know personally!) away.

If Rabbi Pruzansky is correct, this must be an extremely new phenomenon. The population growth in Teaneck is staggering. The schools are bursting at the seam and new schools have opened.

I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD.

As to whether or not MO is valid – I believe so. There are also plenty of factions within Charedi society that my Rabbonim believe are against halacha. Eh, enjoy feeling “superior.”

Then why is MO thriving? Why is the MO population growing so much that new schools are constantly being added in major MO communities and other schools are increasing their capacity?

Well, since this is the thread that drove off Feif, I went back through it to see what I had said, and if I was “a bit over the top”.

I’m proud to say that I am proud of all my posts on this thread, and I don’t think any of them are what drove Feif off.

I am especially proud of this one, which was kind of a joke:

Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???

No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.

“SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?”

MO leaders (rabbis) does not advocate aveiros. Some MO people may do aveiros, but that does not make it part of the MO beliefs.

“As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO”

Do you have any proof for that, or is that a convenient lie that you have repeated enough to believe?

ZDad,

They have articles in a student magazine that rivals anything Feldman alleged in her fanciful work of fiction. A magazine that received funding from YU. An article that widely discussed in the secular media.

Or have you forgotten.

None of this is something to be proud of.

You can be proud of her appearance on the view and other talk shows, something no YU beacon author was able to do.

SJSinNYC said:

“I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD. “

See this for the reason: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-making-of-talmidei-chachomim

Simply put, the German (similar to today’s MO) outlook is to reconcile Judaism with outside knowledge, whereas the Litvish outlook was extreme – Torah and nothing else – all or nothing. So if one can’t have it all, one might just say forget it all.

SJS: you didn’t read my rhetorical question.

Of course, the yetzer hara is an equal opportunity yetzer.

You missed the whole last part of “why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?” Note the part about “your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros”. This dubious distinction belongs to MO, not traditional orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy rightly holds that it is forbidden to do all aveiros, even ones that conflict with secular culture and we don’t really like.

So since you mentioned skirts, there might be some Traditional Orthodox women who have their struggles with Tznius. But they don’t claim they are better than those who do adhere faithfully to Tznius. Whereas MO holds you can just do what you want (obviously, even MO has their limits, but those limits are already well outside normative orthodox Judaism).

Here is your quote that Rabbi JBS said MO is a horaas shaah (at best). Mishpacha Magazine seems to have had an article on Rabbi JBS.

On another site, regarding that Mishpacha article, the following is part of a comment posted there.

[but]

Note also the part about “This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”.

This doesn’t sound like something anybody should *want* to be a part of. If you (foolishly) claim there is no other way, then you are simply denying reality.

While there may be flaws in lots of “systems”, that doesn’t excuse abrogating halacha, CH”V, which clearly, and proudly, happens in MO, even if they feel they that modernity permits them to do so. What you posit amounts to “I can proudly violate the Torah because their system is flawed”. I would not agree that this is a Torah approach.

DaasYochid, although I do not judge anyone, the movement they associate with is still what it is.

The major points are, as I said, that the movement is mattir issurim even though Rabbi JBS specifically stated that it’s better to avoid “secular culture…negative and perverse aspects”, certainly not to be mattir issurim; and that MO is mitaher and miskadeish the idolatry of Zionism, even though Zionism was and is kineged the daas of practically every gadol, Zionist propaganda not withstanding, and Zionism is now, clear for all to see, a disaster of terrible magnitude. Like the baal or molech, how many human sacrifices, physical and/or spirtual, CH”V, make it worth it to be able to serve this idol of Zionism?

Being Adam LMakom is not less severe than bein adam lchaveiro.

HaKatan, I have never reviewed those speeches so I will do so at a later date.

As to “only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding” – this is where we part ways.

MO rabbonim often give a different psak than Charedi rabbonim, but are still within the halachic framework. Its that attitude that makes many people (and not only MO or JPF people), find the Charedi attitude towards others abhorrant. And incorrect.

But what do I know, I don’t view a black hat as a halachic requirement :-/

I think Feif Un had the right idea.

DY, I know a number of Yeshivish people who were told by thier rabbonim that it is better not to attend a minyan w/o a black hat and daven at home, even if it means missing kaddish. This makes those of us who view a black hat as a fashion statement really scratch our head.

Anyway, I thought we were talking about the halacha of different sects, not the practices. Do you know any MO Rabbonim who allow mixed swimming for non medicinal purposes? I don’t! Unless you think Yeshivish rabbonim agree that the “hot chani” look falls within the bounds of Yeshivish halacha?

A hat, or davka a black hat? Wearing a hat, according to basic halacha, is required, although Tzitz Eliezer is meikil since today it is normal to appear that way before a ruler. But black? I never heard of any reason for that, other than cultural.

HaKatan-“Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat”

The president doesn’t wear a hat. Almost nobody today wears a hat. While it used to be standerd for a male to wear a hat, today it’s not. Times change. Dress changes. It has nothing to do with modernity. Since the birth of society, dress has been changing.

Its fine to wear a hat, but to say that “every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat” is just wrong.

FE,

Culturally, not halachically.