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At least the MO will admit there is a problem, the Charedim seem to bury this under a rock even though most seem to have heard of the Anti-Kiruv organization
zsdad:
1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)
2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?
shlishi,
1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)
This organization has hundreds of members, 95% of them are ex-Hasids (extremely few?) who are hateful and angry, many of which feeling they are being denied the help they need to achieve careerwise, because of ideological differences. (If you seek a career, you are a GOY in those communities). So they leave their communities and toss all Frumkeit.
2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?
The need for a Mod Orth organization doesnt negate the need for a Chareidi organization to interest these ex-Chareidi kids who are going to that despicable organization and leaving all Frumkeit behind.
Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, in addition to extra-curricular activities to keep these kids happy, interested and busy with religious influence.
Shlishi
NCSY (answer to #2)
PuhLease -“This topic disgusts me..”
This could be, but why is my post the whole topic?
“@Health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”
I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.
Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.
There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.
All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.
These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!””
I’m not sure if your attack is just on me or on the whole topic.
Anyway I’ll defend my post. I already explained what I meant by truth is Not s/o’s personal opinion here, but when s/o quotes Torah. If anybody has a problem with what it says in the Torah, I for one, am not going to be apologetic. If they have problems with anything that our Torah teaches, they should be embarrassed & demeaned. If the Torah is not so clear cut and there are Machlokeses -this is not what I’m talking about. Our Halacha is quite clear in most instances. It is these people who have to worried about Yom Kippur, not those who denigrade people who flaunt Halacha.
Name one organzation in the Charedi world meant to combat OTD and I dont mean forcing people to conform, that doesnt work for everyone. Name some organizations that are the antidote to the Anti-Kiruv organization
And it does seem everyone knows about it, Its no secret what its name it and its even been on the Zev Brenner Show.
Organizations like NCSY do combat OTD, what is the Charedi equivilant of NCSY.
Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, lectures, warmth, counseling and extra-curricular activities, with religious influence, to keep these kids happy, interested and busy.
Time to realize such an organization is sorely needed.
Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???
It seems to me that the Charaidi world is more focused on building and growing. The population is growing fast and the needs in terms of living, both physically and spiritually, are pressing. The scarce resources may be allocated where they are more strategic. To hire one Rebbe for a class may effect 25 students positively. At the same time that salary could be paid for a Kiruv person who will probably influence less people for less time.
I’m not saying that outreach is not important, but one can say that you get more bang for the buck investing in the existing Charaidi system.
There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is Project YES, Oorah, Chabad, Priority-1, etc. Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children.
Most Charedim do not Like Chabad because of the Messanism.
Oorah raises money for Yeshiva Tuition not really for outreach to “teens in crisis”
The only acceptable activity for many Charedi kids is Learning. Not to say that learning isnt important, but what if a Kid Hates Gemorah. Telling the kid to learn even more Gemorah doesnt always produce a love of learning and can foster a hate in learning.
I think many Chassidic communities even ban Ball Playing DURING THE WEEK so playing sports like basketball can be an unacceptable activity
zsdad: You don’t know what you are talking about. Besides disregarding all the other organizations, Oorah in fact does do outreach directly — and in fact that is their primary activity. Additionally, they have camps for boys and girls (separate, obviously; lemme guess, your next rant will be about how some teens just hate non-coed camps), holiday programs, seminars, and all other sorts of help for at-risk children.
Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???
No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.
zdad- is your ignorance feigned, or are you just that spazzed?
shlishi,
There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is.
Project YES: Very hard to get through to. Certainly not for those who dont want to bang on their doors for months.
Oorah: I know lots of Oorah employees well, and they are one of the most amazing organizations, but their goal is Kiruv R’CHOKIM, NOT Kiruv OTD!!! They work with public school kids and the like. Please get your facts straight.
Chabad: They are NOT doing Kiruv OTD, you have to approach them, which OTD chevra will never do.
Priority-1: I think theyre meant for very serious problems like anti-social issues, suicide risk, etc.
Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children. Most of the above mentioned organizations are for kids in elementary or high school. Im not addressing the problem with kids younger than 18, Im talking young adults who go off on their own and leave Frumkeit, usually when theyre no longer under their parents’ roofs.
Perhaps the Chassidic communities would rather turn a blind eye and give up shaichus to these individuals who dont want to live exactly like them, and do nothing while they stray from Kashrus and Shabbos, for example, rather than help these young adults somewhat modify their lives and have them stay Frum but perhaps less Chassidish or not Chassidish. Its puzzling.
@ Health,
Topic, not You Chas V’shalom. I personally, attempt not to harass any one specific person in general unless attacked first. Thus, if you felt attacked, I whole heartedly apologize.
Some posters said MO shouldn’t support UJA, because although it gives them funding, it also supports Footsteps.
Perhaps MO learned from Agudas Yisroel and the Moetzes? After all, at the convention a few years ago, Mayor Bloomberg was honored for the funding he got the yeshivos – while he was campaigning to legalize same-sex marriage in NY!
DaMoshe, if you examine the likely intended outcome of each action, you would quickly see that the two are not comparable.
UJA can support whatever organizations it feels like, and its priorities are conveyed by those choices.
Whereas Agudah has to work with whichever politicians are in power. This includes honoring someone at a dinner. Also, see the mefarshim on Yaakov calling Esav “Adon”. in last week’s parsha.
Of course, two wrongs anyways don’t make a right. But, in this case, it seems like there’s only one wrong and it’s not Agudah’s.
It’s true that Project YES is hard to get through to, that is something I find a drop troubling since it is headed by Rabbi Yackov Horowitz who is considered by some to be extremley active in OTD.
However there are numerous other orginazations that are dedicated towards OTD though they are much lower profile even though they do amazing things.
In Flatbush There is Rabbi Wallerstiens yeshivos which includes an Middle Elementary school specifiacally designed for kids who are “falling” through the cracks.
I don’t know much about the school know as I do not live in Brooklyn anymore, however when I was in Yeshiva I had a friend who’s father was a Rebbi their and part of his job wass that each time he gave a test he had to make up an individual test tailored towards each kid.
I believe the elementary was called Bircas Shmuel and the Beis Medrash was Ohr Yitzchok.
At the time I was in Yeshiva in Brooklyn it was a known thing that all the Wallerstiens work was done under the direction of Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l.
There is also Our Place.
There is also the one man “storm” of action named Rabbi Mitch Mitnick who has dedicated his life towards OTD kids.
Then in Lakewood there is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi and his Yeshiva dedicated towards helping these children.
There is also Progect Extreme with Rabbi AY Weinberg.
However I will state that from what I have seen personally the most help comes from individual Rabbeim who put their heart and souls into doing everything they can for their talmidim.
I personally stand in awe of what I have seen many Rabbeim do to help their students.
However I am aware of the fact that many Rabbeim are increasingly curtailing their activities in these fields since the danger they are subjecting themselves to is sadly growing day by day.
All they need is one child with emotianal problems or one distraught parent to accuse them of something and theyre entire lives and families lives can be destroyed.
B”H Klal Yisroel still has Men and Women who are willing to risk it , however the risk grows and sadly many are deciding the risks are to great.
And yes, I most definetly am deeply afraid of what will happen in the future.
HaKatan, I don’t think that’s a good answer. Years ago, R’ Gifter gave his famous speech attacking YU. He said they did what they did to get government funding. He said the money comes from Hashem, not the government, and you can’t go even one bit against what is right for government funding. I think if he were alive at the time Bloomberg was honored, he would have been dead-set against it.
What a shame this thread drove Feif Un (whom I know personally!) away.
If Rabbi Pruzansky is correct, this must be an extremely new phenomenon. The population growth in Teaneck is staggering. The schools are bursting at the seam and new schools have opened.
I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD.
As to whether or not MO is valid – I believe so. There are also plenty of factions within Charedi society that my Rabbonim believe are against halacha. Eh, enjoy feeling “superior.”
Extremely new phenominon? Not by a long shot. This is a very old issue that never changed. Much of the MO population from the pre-1950s are the bedrock of the Conservative movement as well as much of the completely unaffiliated and assimilated American Jews.
Then why is MO thriving? Why is the MO population growing so much that new schools are constantly being added in major MO communities and other schools are increasing their capacity?
DaMoshe, again, I believe your latest comparison is also incorrect.
Let me spell it out: “Michanfin laRasha mipnei Darkei Shalom”. So this is “fair play”, at least in whatever cases it halachicly applies. But allowing gay clubs is not.
SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”? So your comparison to BY is not valid, as you can’t, for example, go mixed swimming as a BY.
As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO as a horaas sha’ah because he was afraid that traditional Orthodoxy would become a relic. B”H, his fears were quite unfounded, and, besides, as he himself wrote then, the further one can distance one’s self from culture the better. I guess MO doesn’t hold of that part.
As a matter of practical application, for instance, any male who attends a Broadway show, even with eye coverings and earplugs, as ridiculous as that is, is still a halachic rasha (though I do respect his efforts).
I don’t see how any true Orthodoxy could be worse that halachic rishous, though I don’t claim that all segments of Orthodoxy do everything correctly. But I don’t know of any segment of Orthodoxy other than MO that proudly institutionalizes certain aveiros as muttar. For instance, I’ve never seen reviews of bars/pubs and the use of semi-vulgar “street” terminology in Hamodia or Yated, but I have seen both in a YU publication since, I suppose, that’s part of being “modern” and therefore muttar.
As for MO thriving, it’s nice that the Teaneck is thriving. But MO is still what it is.
Well, since this is the thread that drove off Feif, I went back through it to see what I had said, and if I was “a bit over the top”.
I’m proud to say that I am proud of all my posts on this thread, and I don’t think any of them are what drove Feif off.
I am especially proud of this one, which was kind of a joke:
Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???
No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.
As far as I know YU doesnt have a best selling author like Williamsburg does
“SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?”
MO leaders (rabbis) does not advocate aveiros. Some MO people may do aveiros, but that does not make it part of the MO beliefs.
“As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO”
Do you have any proof for that, or is that a convenient lie that you have repeated enough to believe?
As far as I know YU doesnt have a best selling author like Williamsburg does
dog bites man. man bites dog.
ZDad,
They have articles in a student magazine that rivals anything Feldman alleged in her fanciful work of fiction. A magazine that received funding from YU. An article that widely discussed in the secular media.
Or have you forgotten.
None of this is something to be proud of.
In each society there are groups who follow halacha and groups who don’t. Just look at how many tznius threads there are – apparently, the Yeshiva world has a tznius problem. So why go OTD if women can just hike up their skirts? (insert eye roll here)
MO society doesn’t ostracize people for their life choices, even if those are not within halacha. So yes, my neighbor may do something wrong. IME though, the more to the “right” you go, the more hidden the sins. It seems to be totally acceptable in RW society to pay cash and avoid paying taxes. Is that halachically acceptable? No.
I would really like to see Rav Soloveitchik quoted as saying MO is horaas shaah.
I personally believe in the MO hashkafa. I don’t believe in Yeshivish or Chassidish hashkafa. I think there are major flaws in the system. Its not because its “easier” – while I was raised MO, I went to a RW elementary school. My sister chose to be RW, I chose to be MO.
Teaneck is thriving (and the RWMO element is bursting). If so many teens/early 20s were going OTD, then how would there be a huge baby boom? His statistics don’t add up.
Anyway, now I’m rambling.
You can be proud of her appearance on the view and other talk shows, something no YU beacon author was able to do.
I’m not MO. I reject all lables other than “Jewish.” I just read this thread for the first time. I seriously doubt the 50% statistic. It doesn’t shtim with facts on the ground.
SJSinNYC said:
“I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD. “
See this for the reason: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-making-of-talmidei-chachomim
Simply put, the German (similar to today’s MO) outlook is to reconcile Judaism with outside knowledge, whereas the Litvish outlook was extreme – Torah and nothing else – all or nothing. So if one can’t have it all, one might just say forget it all.
Wolfman said ” I seriously doubt the 50% statistic. It doesn’t shtim with facts on the ground. “
It has been mentioned before that the statistic may include many who call themselves MO but actually do nothing orthodox. Maybe they attend a MO shul 3 times a year because their parents went to that shul. Anyways, I agree that labels are bad, and they can be misleading too.
SJS: you didn’t read my rhetorical question.
Of course, the yetzer hara is an equal opportunity yetzer.
You missed the whole last part of “why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?” Note the part about “your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros”. This dubious distinction belongs to MO, not traditional orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy rightly holds that it is forbidden to do all aveiros, even ones that conflict with secular culture and we don’t really like.
So since you mentioned skirts, there might be some Traditional Orthodox women who have their struggles with Tznius. But they don’t claim they are better than those who do adhere faithfully to Tznius. Whereas MO holds you can just do what you want (obviously, even MO has their limits, but those limits are already well outside normative orthodox Judaism).
Here is your quote that Rabbi JBS said MO is a horaas shaah (at best). Mishpacha Magazine seems to have had an article on Rabbi JBS.
On another site, regarding that Mishpacha article, the following is part of a comment posted there.
[but]
Note also the part about “This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”.
This doesn’t sound like something anybody should *want* to be a part of. If you (foolishly) claim there is no other way, then you are simply denying reality.
While there may be flaws in lots of “systems”, that doesn’t excuse abrogating halacha, CH”V, which clearly, and proudly, happens in MO, even if they feel they that modernity permits them to do so. What you posit amounts to “I can proudly violate the Torah because their system is flawed”. I would not agree that this is a Torah approach.
HaKatan,
You are very unfairly lumping segments of MO together.
I know many people who identify with MO but attempt to do everything al pi halacha, even if I disagree with their approach to halacha.
DaasYochid, although I do not judge anyone, the movement they associate with is still what it is.
The major points are, as I said, that the movement is mattir issurim even though Rabbi JBS specifically stated that it’s better to avoid “secular culture…negative and perverse aspects”, certainly not to be mattir issurim; and that MO is mitaher and miskadeish the idolatry of Zionism, even though Zionism was and is kineged the daas of practically every gadol, Zionist propaganda not withstanding, and Zionism is now, clear for all to see, a disaster of terrible magnitude. Like the baal or molech, how many human sacrifices, physical and/or spirtual, CH”V, make it worth it to be able to serve this idol of Zionism?
Hakatan,
I would need to see an actual source. I don’t consider a random quoted source in a some mishpacha article a source (especially because they aren’t exactly a quality peer reviewed paper).
However, he is not the only MO theologian/Rabbi, so I’m not sure the point stands.
As to why be MO if you can break halacha without being thrown out of your community? Well, that’s a pretty ridiculous statement. I know plenty of groups of Yeshivish women who gather weekly purely to speak lashon hara. My yeshivish cousin landed in jail for financial fraud and he was surrounded by many yeshivish people in prison. And Yeshivish society has plenty of trouble with women flaunting their version of halachic tznius.
MO has different standards within halacha. So no, I don’t think wearing a skirt 4″ past my knee or covering my collar bone or wearing sleeves past my elbow is necessary to be following halacha. More is not always better. Charedi rabbonim clearly agree or they wouldn’t have banned burqas in Israel. The question is where to draw the halachic line and we each turn to our own Rabbonim.
However, no one is going to throw you out of the community if you do something, especially if its a bein adam lamakom. Baruch hashem! No one is perfect. Everyone is a work in progress and there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
My coworkers still marvel at the fact that I’ve never eaten a ruben. Or worked on Saturday during an emergency. Or countless of other things that fall within halacha.
But if you don’t need modernity, that’s fine. Good luck finding a doctor who practices talmudic anatomy!
Being Adam LMakom is not less severe than bein adam lchaveiro.
SJS, once more, while “everyone is a work in progress”, only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding.
As to your request for a quote, they quoted “Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik, Five Addresses”. I hope that satisfies your requirements.
As to your quip at the end seemingly mockingly implying that I don’t need any form of modern progress, you seem to believe that in addition to MO allowing you to redefine halacha, that you also are the sole claimants to everything pertaining to modernity outside halacha.
This is, of course, a mistake. Traditional Orthodox Jews are as savvy and engaged, within the bounds of halacha, as anyone could be with modern technology, including MO. Hashem created many nissim and niflaos, and it is obviously good to bring nachas to Hashem from those since they enable one to be a better eved Hashem.
But where “modernity” and, more accurately, “culture”, conflicts with halacha, like wearing short skirts, not covering hair (properly, if at all) going mixed swimming, Zionism, et al., where one would, therefore, be lacking in his serving G-d, then halacha takes precedence over modernity/culture for traditional Orthodoxy, unlike in MO where modernity trumps halacha, regardless.
I again want to emphasize that I’m not judging anyone but am speaking in generalities about a movement.
HaKatan, I have never reviewed those speeches so I will do so at a later date.
As to “only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding” – this is where we part ways.
MO rabbonim often give a different psak than Charedi rabbonim, but are still within the halachic framework. Its that attitude that makes many people (and not only MO or JPF people), find the Charedi attitude towards others abhorrant. And incorrect.
But what do I know, I don’t view a black hat as a halachic requirement :-/
I think Feif Un had the right idea.
SJS,
I know of nobody who identifies themselves as charedi and considers a black hat to be a halachic requirement.
If you wish to argue on point, you would have to either defend or dissociate yourself from real halachic problems in MO, such as mixed swimming.
DY, I know a number of Yeshivish people who were told by thier rabbonim that it is better not to attend a minyan w/o a black hat and daven at home, even if it means missing kaddish. This makes those of us who view a black hat as a fashion statement really scratch our head.
Anyway, I thought we were talking about the halacha of different sects, not the practices. Do you know any MO Rabbonim who allow mixed swimming for non medicinal purposes? I don’t! Unless you think Yeshivish rabbonim agree that the “hot chani” look falls within the bounds of Yeshivish halacha?
Anyway, this will be my last post here. This thread reminds me exactly why I left a few years ago.
A hat, or davka a black hat? Wearing a hat, according to basic halacha, is required, although Tzitz Eliezer is meikil since today it is normal to appear that way before a ruler. But black? I never heard of any reason for that, other than cultural.
SJS:
Your “always pleasant” subtitle was not very evident in your previous posts.
Since you can’t defend the points, you chose to bow out. That’s okay; you don’t have to defend anything, much less the indefensible like MO.
If this story, about not davening without a black hat, is true, it must have been any respectable hat, not just black.
The reason you are scratching your head is that a black hat during davening is, in fact, NOT a fashion statement. (The black part might be fairly uniform, but the whole thing is certainly not a fashion statement.) Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat, with the exceptions of much of those influenced by the decline of the society around us, one must do the same when addressing the King of Kings.
Giluy Arayos is Yeihareig ViAl Yaavor. What would medicinal purposes have to do with anything? And why would it have to be mixed, even if it were medicinal?
Face facts: MO elevated modernity on a pedestal and, in the process, tramples on parts of the Torah.
As well, there are more shades of gray than a simple stark comparison between Chareidi and MO.
Finally, Traditional Orthodoxy, which Rabbi JBS mistakenly thought would become a museum piece and was his impetus for creating MO, did not, B”H, become a museum piece.
BE”H, the truth will be revealed BB”A.
HaKatan-“Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat”
The president doesn’t wear a hat. Almost nobody today wears a hat. While it used to be standerd for a male to wear a hat, today it’s not. Times change. Dress changes. It has nothing to do with modernity. Since the birth of society, dress has been changing.
Its fine to wear a hat, but to say that “every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat” is just wrong.
its ironic. All the american yeshivish jews bashing the MO. They dont realize that the chareidim in israel look at them like their the modern jews. Its all about your perspective
FE,
Culturally, not halachically.
halachically as well. The Isralei Charedi community is a lot more machmir
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