Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate

Sushee No one is saying that problems should not be addressed. We are attacking what is basically a fictional study being used by people here to impugn a large segment of Yiddishkeit.

In addition some of us believe that actions are louder than negative criticism spouted in post 99 on some blog.

I’ve been thinking a lot about all this and, not sure if you’ll agree with me but this is my conclusion. I think it’s probably important to differentiate between:

1) Modern Orthodoxy as a Hashkafa; and

2) Behavioural trends within the MO community.

Let’s take No.1) As a Hashkafa, MO differs as far as I can tell only regards to 3 points:

a) The Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael (perhaps more relevant to Mizrachi)

b)The concept of Daas Torah

c)The value of learning Torah vs. Secular study for its own sake.

I don’t believe any of these issues create in and of themselves issues of apikorsus ch’v although the last two possibly can lead in that direction if taken to the extreme.

Let’s have a look at 2) – Behavioural trends. Well this is just a matter of fact. Within both the MO community and the Charedi community you have attitudes ranging from respect and self-sacrifice for the Halacha to a don’t care attitude. Now it’s a question of percentages – in which community is there a larger percentage of families that genuinely care for the Halacha and Torah values and not just for show. I’ll leave this question open because I don’t know the answer.

MediumThink, it’s not that I disagree with your comment, but please, a little respect!! This is the YW CR, not, as you so insolently refer to it “some blog”!

I know Rabbi Pruzansky’ community pretty well and what happens there is totally at odds with what he said. A simple challenge: where is that study? where are those numbers? can you back up what you are saying? i don’t believe him.

rabbiofberlin: If Rabbi Pruzansky said the MO OTD rate is 50%, even if he is off, he is not going to be far off. So it isn’t 50%; is it 45%? 40%? 35%? Even if it is less, it is still a substantial percentage. He is not way off base. He is a Rov in one of the largest MO communities.

Firstly:

Can anyone point me to the “unpublished” study? Paul Shaviv, the head of Ramaz School in NY is quoted as:

That being said, why is there all these comments without fact-checking first?

This topic of discussion has led to comments on YWN with unbridled sinas chinam against the MO. The moderators need to do a better job of not posting those comments with vile sinas chinam. Is there any wonder why there’s no Bais HaMikdosh after nearly 2000 years? Sinas chinam is worse than the 3 major avairos one must die for rather than commit, if forced.

Please, people, show some “V’ohavta l’rei’acha kamocha”.

I would advise the moderators to remove the comments that espouse sinas chinam. I hope the moderators don’t condone those comments.

The People I am talking about do not live in Borough Park, they live in more outlining areas. There are plenty of Young Israels that are Yeshivish. If you go for example to the Young Israel of Far Rockaway, its more or less Yeshivish (not 100%, but pretty close)

Posted by zahavasdad

You essentially said all Young Israels. I take it you’re still not apologizing for the “rechilus” on my shul.

By the way, maybe you can post a travel diary of the cross country tour you took of Young Israel shuls to give you the first hand knowledge on which you base your lashon hara. I’m especially interested in the Young Israel of Phoenix How was the outdoor shiur next to the chiminea?

Crisis,

I would hope you would hear it in some drashos, it would mean the Rabbonim in your community feel that it is something that needs addressing. This is a major crisis.

golfer

I accept your tochach and retract my offending statement that referred, chalila, to the YWN CR as some blog.

SAM2: I am taliking about exactly what Modern Orthodox Jews are:People that know what the right things to do are, the proper ways to serve Hashem, yet they still choose to live a more Modern lifestyle but still keeping the misvot that they feel important and won’t conflict with their Modern way of living….People that know how to properly serve Hashem yet choose to serve Hashem w/o the proper care and dedication that they know as correct, bc it’s not modern way of living… Hashem should have mercy on them and put it in there minds to do and live by what they know in their hearts is correct.

MSS: this topic is really too hot for me to tackle but I still feel the need to add my two cents. It’s nice to hear about the sincere singles and couples you are dealing with — however in all fairness is it not likely that those abandoning yiddishkeit aren’t sending you their shidduch profiles?

Also, all of us should remember that a Yid can not remain stagnant, we either grow spiritually or fall. If someone is holding on to only a few mitzvos to start with, when he (or she) falls it is only these few precious mitzvos that are “available” to be dropped.

At the other end of the spectrum are the sincere MOs a few posters mentioned whose idealism allows them to take great strides. They have a good, knowledgeable starting point with lots of room for growth, which in turn spurs them further. Counter that with “frum” ffbs which when they become lax in their observance [most] drop minor stuff first, and either continue to drop or hopefully mature spiritually and pick themselves up without major harm having been done. OTHD too many are disillusioned and don’t have the drive to grow as their yiddishkeit was handed to them on a silver platter. (the yiddish monthly ma’alos had a good article on this last point a few months ago.)

Those that do strive for more hopefully won’t be ridiculed here and elsewhere as being fanatic — tolerance should go both ways.

Last point, I don’t recall who mentioned it but it’s not exactly true that “especially chasidic” disown their OTD kids.

my comment however was more about how this might creep into a drasha as a “look how much better we are then them” type message.

I guess you’ve don’t frequent chareidi rabbonim’s drashos. Why do you assume that the themes are about putting others down? And isn’t that assumption actually demeaning chareidim, by assuming that it’s most important issue (or at least an important issue) is putting down the MO? This is not at all the case, in my experience (nor the reverse when I’ve heard drashos from MO rabbis).

Mr. Crisis,

I am fully aware you think you were being sharp. However, I think that you are so wrapped in trying to deny that there can very well be a problem that you would rather deflect than deal with an issue of major proportions.

You are so busy harping that this may be an oral report, I am telling you that an even an alleged oral report is more reliable than anything on HM’s blog, regardless of who purportedly wrote it. HM is a fabricator. Both you and Ham said it was “quoted” on HM’s blog, not that it was written by Shaviv. Make up your mind. I wouldn’t know, I don’t look at his little blog anymore. It apparently is agreed by all that R Pruzansky quoted this study. Do you think R Pruzansky is foolish? Why do you think he mentioned if not because he is concerned and it probably concurs with his observations as well.

As far as the “look how much better we are then them” it seems that almost every one of your posts tries to do just that.

Take a step back, and if you are even a tiny bit as smart as you think you might be, you would see that.

I am not happy with such a report, any such report about any group of yidden disturbs me greatly. I am bothered that there is chilul Shabbos. Talk about “overlooking their own failures” or” a preconceived notion or an existing bias”.

I wonder why you think you were being so sharp, any one of your “Uber” comments seemed to apply more appropriately to yourself.

I know where you were trying to go, I guess I was too many steps ahead of you and you mistakenly thought I have no clue. I guess you think you have money and yichus and that makes up for your simple comments.

@nishtdayngesheft

You wrote in your previous post:

Both you and Ham said it was “quoted” on HM’s blog, not that it was written by Shaviv. Make up your mind.

This is a falsehood on your part. I clearly wrote, unambiguously:

Paul Shaviv, the head of Ramaz School in NY is quoted as:

You owe me and possibly Crisis an apology after saying we didn’t do something that we did do, indeed. Could I possibly be more clear than I was and you more wrong than you were about your falsehood?

When I post, I try very hard to keep opinions out of my postings and to stick to facts. I might not succeed each and every time, but I personally feel with an attitude like that, my posting contributes a viewpoint without personal attacks. You might want to give it a try for yourself. It could even improve your middos.

Try not to be like Curly from the 3 Stooges, who says, “I’m trying to think, but nothing happens!”.

Because it will draw more visitors to this site, which in turn increases ad impressions on this site.

@Dolphina,

Brava (Bravo?)

Thank you.

Englishman posted a comment from Rabbi Pruzansky’s blog that talks about a MO school with MO teachers. There was an article a while ago, either in Jewish Action or YI Viewpoint, that said that there are not enough MO limudei kodesh teachers, so many MO schools hire yeshivish teachers. Obviously, it varies from school to school. In any case, Rabbi Pruzansky’s message was aimed primarily at parents.

There are others, however, who “pick and choose”.

This includes things like men going to broadway shows (they earn the halachic status of rasha, liChol haDeios, unless it’s an all-male show) and (married) women not covering their hair at all, going mixed swimming, et al. Not to mention other hataras issurim. If, one generation later, this group is at 50% (of whom are still either MO or else moved on to traditional orthodox), that’s not exactly shocking, as the above stories from those on campus and in schools indicate. Hashem yishmor.

Now MO are Rashim.

And what do you call people who go to Secular Court to fight over an inheritance.

Instead of all the hand-wringing and talk, we need action. We need to start being mekarev, with kiruv outreach efforts, towards our Modern Orthodox brethren at-risk of assimilation R”L. Where are all the kiruv organizations? In addition to reaching out to the Reform, Conservative and secular yidden, they must extend their efforts to MO communities around the country.

mommamia – if these people were standing in front of you would you give them the time of day? I wouldn’t even feign politeness. Move on for your own sake.

mommamia

How do you know no one improved? It happens to be we did. We took an extra effort in Chinuch matters outlined in sensible OP’s suggestions.

The world is not totally made out of mean, obnoxious inhabitants.

ZahavasDad, when you wrote “Now MO are Rashim”, I presume you meant “rishaim” and that you erroneously based your slander on my post. I certainly did not write the slander you wrote, and my post was quite clear to that effect.

(Also, two wrongs do not make a right, as you surely learned in Kindergarten, so I don’t understand what the relevance is of certain people’s use of archaos.)

But on the off-chance you are asking sincerely and since you seemed to have missed my explicit and clear statement of when one would be considered a rasha, I will elaborate.

One (i.e. a Jewish male, regardless of sect/affiliation) who, given an alternative, intentionally goes to a(n) street/path/area where he knows he will encounter pritzus is called a rasha. Again, this applies to any Jew, MO or otherwise. Ergo, a male who attends a Broadway show, EVEN IF HE IS SURE HE WILL NOT LOOK, is a rasha just for having gone, before he is over any further issurim.

Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars and MO posts in the past here have referenced how some MO go to Broadway shows, that was the relevance of this halacha to this thread. It was, once more, not a reflection on the entire MO population.

mommamia22, I disagree. As I’ve posted before, and to borrow from the Syms slogan, an educated consumer is our best consumer. To be the best Eved Hashem one can be, one should know the best way to serve Hashem and the pitfalls of other isms and movements like Zionism and MO (among others). The point is not to randomly bash them, CH”V, but to educate us.

I don’t take offense at most of the stuff on this blog regarding MO as I am secure in my beliefs and hashkafa and I am not looking for nor do I need the approbation of posters. At the same time, I do expect no less from the yeshivish/chareidi posters. My opinion’s shouldn’t affect them in the least.

All I ask is use the same criteria. Would you accept the kashrus of a restaurant based upon a story in which Rabbi Pruznansky said he only had an oral report but didn’t know who gave the hashgacha, where the meat comes from, or if they used a mashgiach. Of course not. But enough people insist on citing the report despite no knowledge of the reports author, criteria , methodology or detail.

hakatan: “Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars “

It’s funny because the yeshivish think it’s a halacha to start their relationship in a bar.

As for saying things are 100% assur, people far greater than you have said otherwise.

This thread reminds me of a story my father told about a visit he made to eretz yisrael.

My father is a clean shaven man. Once a young chassidishe boy came over to him and said “du bist a yid”?

My father was furious and outraged that a child could grow up thinking that despite wearing a yarmulke, a man might not even be Jewish without a beard.

And that, my friends, is closed mindedness at it’s best.