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I for one, admire Rabbi Purzansky for his out outspokenness. There is nothing he is saying that isn’t true. Perhaps someone from Teaneck can tell us, “Does he say these things from the pulpit”? Given the makeup of his shul and community, I would applaud him if he did. This must be a man with a lifetime contract. Kol Hakovod!
golfer: Because you don’t know the author or methodologies of the study you will give it no weight and, if it is indeed accurate, you will allow 50% of the modern orthodox population to assimilate into oblivion?
R. Pruzansky said “50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant”. And in light of several posters explaining that this is because many Modern Orthodox families are not Torah observant in the first place, it is worth repeating DaasYochid’s rebuttal that R. Pruzansky’s article “implies that they once were Shabbat and Kashrut observant, unlike the theories put forth by some posters here.”
In other words R. Pruzansky is saying, if you read his words carefully, that 50% of once Torah observant Modern Orthodox graduates become no longer Torah observant.
Hello Coffee Room,
To me, it does not seem kind or constructive to respond to this poll by attacking each other. Might we focus instead on positive actions and suggestions that potentially remediate the problem?
Chas veshalom!
Sushee, you really think it’s in my hands to allow or disallow any segment of the population to assimilate? I know I’m one of the best posters the CR has, but really, you’re making me blush. And giving me too much credit.
MO schools have their problems; they also have their challenges, one of those being that some of their students start off from day 1 very weak in their Mitzvah observance.
If Rabbi Pruzansky wants to ask us, as parents, to strengthen our homes and the chinuch we give our children, then that is something we can all take to heart, whatever schools we send our children to. (Personally, I have been dismayed to see one of the things he mentions- children participating in sports on Shabbos afternoons dressed in a way that is not in the spirit of Shabbos Kodesh. The gift of Shabbos has the potential to imbue our children with Kedusha, and it’s sad to see the gift squandered in the name of physical fitness.)
However, if you want to take a study whose author, and his methodology and biases, are unknown, and use that study to malign a large segment of our people, then sorry, but I’m not buying in. And if you think that you’ll save all the poor, misguided MO Jews from assimilation by slandering them and their educational system then we all have a bit of a problem. I think more than a bit.
I’ve thought a lot recently about leaving the Coffee Room. The amount of misguided drivel and sheer hate spewed here is amazing. This thread has been the final straw. Not Rabbi Pruzansky’s comments – I know Rabbi Pruzansky and have a tremendous amount of respect for him. Perhaps I’ll even ask him about this issue. No, it’s the hatred shown towards fellow Jews who don’t live the same way that others might.
I’m done. I’m leaving.
Good bye; we’ll miss you. We appreciate the diversity of ideas you bring.
MorahRach and Medium Sized Shadchan: Thanks for sharing! Very interesting.
Mods: Why are you letting through comments claiming that MO is apikorsus? Do you want this website to make frum Jews look like ignorant xenophobes who think everyone who isn’t just like them is a heretic? That’s what I asked in the last thread that was removed. Like someone else suggested, if there’s anything that’s going to make people go OTD it’s that kind of comment.
Medium sized shadchan: Just wondering, do/did some of the MO singles you deal with go to college at places other than YU/Stern?
Wow,
Its about time Feif has made an issue about all the anti-non modern orthodox comments that have often been posted. Including comments by himself, Zdad, crisis and any number of others. Whether or not the comments were logical.
They may wish to deny it, but their rhetoric has always been much more hateful. And I do not know why.
I can’t say I am upset that Feif is going. I do think it is wrong to bash any group of Jews, after all they are family. I may strongly disagree with their positions, but I do not condone hate. I wish that were universal.
Wow, with what I am seeing here, the question isn’t how MO schools are endangering the Jewish future, it is how anyone would want to identify and practice as a Jew if it meant acquiescing to the sinas chinom that passes for commentary here.
When someone like Aurora77 who has told us she has recently begun her derech towards Torah observance has a clearer, kinder, and more constructive perspective here than people who have sat in Kolel for years, there’s something missing in what the Kolels are teaching.
When someone life Feif Un, who is a shomer torah umitzvos and Yoreh Shomayim who I greatly admire, is so disgusted that he must leave this place, there’s something missing in the neshomos of some of the viler posters here.
I’ve done my online hishtadlus against the worst anti-Semites, anti-Israel, and J for J missionary types – for more than a decade. I’ve tusseled with people who would slit my throat (and all of yours) if they weren’t half a world away in a Karachi medrassa. So I’m neither impressed, nor intimidated, nor easily disgusted.
Hey, MO bashers – you’re Junior Varsity. Compared to what I’ve encountered you are bush league, and anyone who uses the intellect and bechiro chofshis HKBH gave us all can and does see through your veil of purity and probity to your simple desire that all who don’t look, think, act, daven, learn, and talk like you should vanish in the interests of kedusha and the future of your daled amos.
Am Yisroel is more than your daled amos.
apologies for my typo. I said Jewish Father. I meant Jewish Mother.
Hello there feif un! You still with us? You really left? And Morahrach, this is for you too. You’re not planning on running off too, are you?
Let’s not get so excited. Nobody’s hating anybody. All those venerable posters who can quote rishonim and achronim on matrilineal descent, patrilineal descent, and shaking hands with members of the opposite sex, are fully aware of the absolute prohibition against feeling, even in the innermost, hidden recesses of their good Jewish hearts, one drop of hatred for any fellow Jew. Jews do tend to feel passionately about things. We’re an opinionated bunch. Our first and greatest leader referred to us, his beloved nation, as an “Am k’shei oref.” And we haven’t survived 2,000 years of Galus by not standing up for what we think and believe. But please don’t take it all personally. Don’t join dolphina, whose post was one of, if not THE nastiest I have ever seen here, finding vitriol and hatred where there really wasn’t any. Did she come here expecting everyone to smilingly and nebbishly agree with every opinion she holds dear? The CR, kishmo kein hu, is here to put our feet up, enjoy an imaginary cup, and hear what the other fellow has to say.
If we all start to take ourselves too seriously we”ll have to rename it The Hallowed Hall of Cogitation, or something equally offputting. And then EVERYONE will leave for greener, more relaxed pastures.
Feif,
Not a bad idea to leave the CR, but probably for the wrong reasons.
I for one, who consider myself anything but MO, do not harbor an ounce of hatred towards MO Yidden, although I may strongly disagree with them in many areas of hashkafah. All of my peers, fellow “chareidim”, feel the same way as I. The sinah occasionally posted here is not a reflection of the real world (in fact most of the people in my peer group don’t even have regular internet access). this is a good reason to either leave, or at least not partake in these types of discussions.
The silly posts you saw here were probably written just to elicit the reaction they did. The bored bochurim who wrote them are probably giggling at your response.
Hopefully, you’ll use the time, otherwise spent here, doing more productive things (which is the other real reason we should all leave).
Be well!
Hello MorahRach, Feif Un, and others thinking of leaving the Coffee Room,
I am so sorry for the things that have been said that have hurt you! Please reconsider leaving — as the mods wrote in Feif Un’s post above, you bring a diversity of ideas, and in my opinion, we need that. I appreciate and value the thoughts you share. I am really saddened by the turn the commentary on this thread took. I do not believe that the negativity on this thread reflects the Orthodox community accurately and I fear for the impression that newcomers may receive reading here.
Words have an incredible power to wound, I understand that. I also know that you must do what is best for your well-being — negativity like this is really toxic.
I just want to say that there would be a real loss if you leave. I have benefitted from your presence. Thank you for that.
We will miss you Feif
and to nishtdayngesheft, thanks for the mention!
Meh. I got tired of fighting the haters.
There are several posters on these boards who have nothing better to do than simply make hateful, hurtful statements just for the sake of either hurting others or stirring up the pot. I’ve learned to just treat their statements as the product of people who are either ignorant, xenophobic, possessed of a holier-than-thou attitude or, perhaps, just plain mean and spiteful (or, perhaps a combination of all of the above).
Sometimes you have to remember the old maxim: don’t wrestle with a pig. It only gets you dirty and annoys the pig. (And yes, I, too, am sometimes guilty of ignoring this maxim myself.)
The Wolf
I don’t know, I’ll try again (just is case they miss this post)
I’ve read through most of this (hot) thread, and again, I’ve not found any of the (hate, vitriol, slander, poison) directed at any poster, or even at the Movement in question. To the contrary, it is ALWAYS someone from their camp foaming at the mouth screaming (holier than thou.. you’re turning people off.. you’re spewing hate..) I don’t know. It’s my own observation.
Someone pointed out at the beginning that we ought to put a dagash, an emphasis, on HaShem, His Mitzvhos, His Torah, and earnestly talk about them to one’s children in order to bestow upon them a love for Torah life. Was any hate recommended?
C’mon brothers and sisters. I suspect you have more to offer.
feif, morah and others –
I used to feel just as you do about the stupid things that come out of some posters keyboards just as I felt when I listened to them spew in real life, but then I learned to take the high road. Not only do I not respond (actually I usually respond and delete the post before sending), but I have stopped reading the controversial threads, and have stopped opening threads that have certain posters names listed. It has made a tremendous difference, IRL and on the CR and I recommend you try it. That way you won’t have to deprive the rest of us of your thoughts and you won’t have to suffer this type of pain of galus. If you think you just can’t leave their words unchallenged then think of this – 1) they aren’t listening anyway so your words won’t help, and 2) sheker ein lo raglayim, and stupidity probably doesn’t either.
ZeesKite: Well said. Could not have said it better myself.
Hey, no need for anyone to leave the CR. Just do what I do: take everything with a grain of salt and only post once every two years or so. (I’m going for some kind of record lately, though.)
Working on it -“Health – FYI, calling MO “apikorsus” is not speaking any sort of truth.”
Who said e/o here only speaks the truth? I was talking about when they quote different Shittas.
Its best to develop a thicker skin, certain comments reflect more badly on the poster than anything else.
This site gets tons of viewers and whatever is said is for all to see. You cant hide what you post on the internet
I knew once the OP was read, people would leap on it and use it to put down MO.
The MO world is so complex that any attempt to summarize it would fail to provide an absolute truth.
Kol hakavod to those of you who highlighted the strengths of (some streams of) the community.
Those of you who are thinking of leaving, I would hope you would not.
You can see how much we need people to give a balanced perspective here.
The only part of the OP that I appreciated was the information listing suggestions of how we can improve ourselves to strengthen the yiddishkeit in our homes.
I wonder how many of those who posted here considered which of those suggestions they’d like to work on???
GeshmakMan -“Health – it’s not the “frum” world’s job to speak the “truth”. Even if it was, there are ways to do so.”
I’m sorry, we have every right to quote Torah here, whether it’s PC or not.
“Just imagine if a Jew regardless of affiliation came on this website and read the CR, he’d probably run to the nearest church and baptize himself.”
Like I posted, it’s not our job here in the CR to sugar coat everything.
“Now you might tell me that posting here is “different” but in the “True Frum” world you speak of, we are supposed to act the same way in private as we do in public. Hashem is always watching us, whether it’s via blogging or anywhere else.”
Exactly and we will continue to post Halacha here whether some types of Jews are offended.
“A) Why don’t you start for us and define the word “Frum””
It’s very sad that you don’t know the definition.
“B) Your “truth” is most probably your opinion”
Some people post opinion here. When I said Truth -I was talking when people post Torah!
“C) The Modern Orthodoxy this article is discussing, clearly isn’t the Modern Orthodoxy that was drawn up and envisioned by Rav Soloveitchik z’tl many years ago. The people off the Derech in this article are simply “modern”, they have very little Orthodoxy in their life.
The fact that they buy Challas for Shabbos or sit in the back of Shul on Shabbos and talk does not make them Orthodox nor does it reflect on the “Torah U Madda” Values that many Modern Orthodox Jews take very seriously and live by.
For some clown to come here and blog that MO is apikorsus,takes a lot of nerve, reflects complete ignorance and is probably violating a few Issurim on the way as well.”
Therefore?!?!
“I can say this much for sure – a Modern Orthodox person is not wasting his time with pure Batala in the CR!”
This is an absolute lie. There are many MO posters here!
You do realize the initial poster significantly misquoted Rabbi Pruzansky’s statement (at his website), and that almost all the Loshan Ha’Ra in this discussion is based on the misquote, not on what he wrote. All he was saying is that parents should make a point of being frum in front of their kids in ways such as how they dress and spend their Shabbos.
Health:
The BIGGEST batlan here is not M.O. (How do I know?)
What an interesting thread and yet more interesting (and of course disturbing) than the thread itself is the anger that it seems to be causing. If I may offer my humble opinion.
Yes, to all defensive mordern orthodox posters who seek refuge in the fakers in the yeshivish communities, there are people who wear one face and live another. Big whoop. There are people all over the world in all walks of life who are fakers. However, the movement which is both adhered to and supported by all of the gedolim of our generation and generations past is one which is built on integrity and stringent observance, to the letter, of the torah. Many within in have strayed and many will continue to stray, they may not even outwardly show this deviance, but what they stray from is a movement with ideals and utmost devout intentions. On the other hand, and cry all you like about it, the modern orthodox movement is damaged from the start. It’s inadherence to the very basic of requirements mean that even those who steadfastly cling to it, are misguided and not performing as they are required to. The word modern has no place when it comes to Judaism. To suggest an evolution in Judaism is to imply that it’s impressive creator was unaware of the trajectory of time on earth. A ludicrous statement. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supranatural being layed down the rules in this game and ours is not to question why. Setting an example to children that some things can be omitted within Judaism leads him to wonder why not others. There is no room for surprise when he decides to add others and then abscond every part of Judaism. I love all Jews and respect them for their individual ways of life – as people, but when it comes to right and wrong, there’s no debate and no margin of error.
If a person is raised with almost no affiliation, save those trips to “temple” on the high holidays with their parents, HOW do they know better? If someone is raised like that, and then the hand that reaches out to them and helps them embrace Judaism is in fact Modern Orthodox, how I ask do they know better then to associate with that sect? No one here is arguing what is technically right and wrong. I for one wasn’t. What upset me is the dismissal of these so called apikorsus Jews that you don’t deem worthy of a handshake. When Hashem looks at his beautiful world full of his own children, and he sees one guy raised in a frum household, grown up stayed frum and raised a frum family, then sees another guy who was raised with zero affiliation and commitment to Torah, but somehow got involved with MO and keeps kashrus, shabbos, TaHa, but wears jeans and watches tv etc, does he love one more? I apologize for the run on sentence, I am just trying to get my point across before I go to sleep. I hope feif un does not leave the CR, I don’t want to either, people just need to be more sensitive to their fellow yidden. I know that I am not the only one in here from a modern background who became frummer. I also know that I am not the only one who is not wiring off my parents as worthless Jews who don’t know how to keep a mitzvah.
MorahRach -“If a person is raised with almost no affiliation, save those trips to “temple” on the high holidays with their parents, HOW do they know better? If someone is raised like that, and then the hand that reaches out to them and helps them embrace Judaism is in fact Modern Orthodox, how I ask do they know better then to associate with that sect? No one here is arguing what is technically right and wrong. I for one wasn’t.”
Yes, MO is better than totally Frei.
“What upset me is the dismissal of these so called apikorsus Jews that you don’t deem worthy of a handshake. When Hashem looks at his beautiful world full of his own children, and he sees one guy raised in a frum household, grown up stayed frum and raised a frum family, then sees another guy who was raised with zero affiliation and commitment to Torah, but somehow got involved with MO and keeps kashrus, shabbos, TaHa, but wears jeans and watches tv etc, does he love one more? I apologize for the run on sentence, I am just trying to get my point across before I go to sleep. I hope feif un does not leave the CR, I don’t want to either, people just need to be more sensitive to their fellow yidden. I know that I am not the only one in here from a modern background who became frummer. I also know that I am not the only one who is not wiring off my parents as worthless Jews who don’t know how to keep a mitzvah.”
This is the problem here. You took one guy’s post and attributed it to the rest of us. And you aren’t the only one. Why get on the defensive? I, even though I’m a Yeshivish FFB, called him out for that comment. So maybe one person or a few have to be more sensitive, by & large, I think most posters here are sensitive.
I will not apologize for any comments I made concerning Halacha, nor will I feel guilty for some poster’s ridiculous comments.
There are Halachos of Negia and Tzinus, and if these are lacking in some parts of the MO community, then these have to be addressed. Crying Wolf doesn’t change the reality!
In what sense was I crying wolf?
There is a word for this thread, revolting!
Alot of people who go to MO schools are not religious and in fact many people who go to MO shuls like Young Israels and the like are not reglious either, but they are Pro-relgious. Meaning they like the religion but have limits.
Posted by zahavasdad.
As a proud member of the Young Israel-Beth El of Borough Park let me inform you that you know nothing about my congregation.
Further, and speaking only on my own behalf, if you feel this way, then please stay out of my shul! After all, how can you trust us to have a proper minyan? And maybe our sifrei Torah are considered pasul at least to the twisted perceptions of some people.
Oh, and my personal favorite, if we aren’t good enough Jews for you, then don’t drop in to hear our chazan and choir! I am offended by the idea my contributions are paying for a service you might enjoy. Then again, why should you? Our shul clearly doesn’t measure up to your standards of sinas chinam!
I see whatever frame of mind we were supposed to be in for Yom Kippur has sadly already left a number of people.
MorahRach -“In what sense was I crying wolf?”
This is crying Wolf – attributing one guy’s comments to the rest of us:
“I think it has finally happened. This is the most offensive thread I have ever seen. No wonder why so many people go OTD. Calling MO people apikorus?”
About a week ago Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a well regarded MO rabbi from New Jersey, referenced on his site a new study that finds that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbos or Kashrus observant within two years of their graduation. This shocking statistic came only a year after another study found that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvos.
So am I to understand that the ones who don’t go to secular college are going OTD at even higher rates?
And if we assume half of them go to college, then we’d have to say that 75% of those who don’t go OTD! Amazing.
IOW: why are we getting worked up over a clearly false set of data?
That’s not what crying wolf means…
Anyway, I am not calling everyone out but there is a certain tone in this thread, and hundreds of others, that say the same thing. Don’t tell me/us not to overreact and get so defensive. Some, not all, of the things said in this thread were very hurtful and offensive, if you don’t want people to cry foul then don’t write it.
MorahRach -“That’s not what crying wolf means..”
Yes, it does. Complaining about a prob that doesn’t exist.
“Anyway, I am not calling everyone out but there is a certain tone in this thread, and hundreds of others, that say the same thing. Don’t tell me/us not to overreact and get so defensive. Some, not all, of the things said in this thread were very hurtful and offensive, if you don’t want people to cry foul then don’t write it.”
I already posted above: “Exactly and we will continue to post Halacha here whether some types of Jews are offended.”
I will not stop posting, even if Halacha is Not PC and seems to be “hurtful and offensive”!
Popa,
Niskatnu hadoros. This study is a year more current.
A non published,non described, non peer reviewed, psychological study. I’ve published a few medical papers (not as the first author) and until there is data this is completely meaningless.
IOW: why are we getting worked up over a clearly false set of data?
Because there are some bored people who like to fill their time by putting down other people (and this seems to be occurring on both sides).
Yeshivishsocrates1, what are those things that Modern Orthodoxy omits against the Creator’s will? Can you give us a list?
@ Borough Park Mensch
The People I am talking about do not live in Borough Park, they live in more outlining areas. There are plenty of Young Israels that are Yeshivish. If you go for example to the Young Israel of Far Rockaway, its more or less Yeshivish (not 100%, but pretty close)
Go to a Young Israel in an outlying area or out of town, Maybe one with 50 familes. Many do not have daily minyans because they cant get it.
The definition of MO is very broad and Ill agree with the statment some on MO are more Modern than orthodox. And I suspect the study is likely more referring to those people.
You think Rabbi Pruzansky gave a false set of data?
Is it Halacha to say that modern orthodoxy is apikorsus?
Why would he? It is about his own community and he is the last person to publish a set of data that is questionable. And yet he does cite these figures. Regardless, he certainly is in the ballpark. If it’s 40% instead of 50%, then it’s good?
Borough Park Mensch,
“Oh, and my personal favorite, if we aren’t good enough Jews for you, then don’t drop in to hear our chazan and choir! I am offended by the idea my contributions are paying for a service you might enjoy. Then again, why should you? Our shul clearly doesn’t measure up to your standards of sinas chinam!”
Absolutely right! Love it!
IMHO if R Aron a”h would be alive today, I think hed be very comfortable in the YU Bais Medrash with the independent Mistapek b’Muat learners there. Possibly more comfortable than with some (the materialistic, demanding percentile) of the Lakewood Kollel. Please refer to my opinion stated in an earlier post, for clarification.
Right, since you are lacking the “scientific” data you are going to let the second largest group of Orthodox Jews go to pot and virtually assimilate into goyim. You’re going to wait until you receive “peer reviewed, psyschological” data before you take action to stem this terrible tide.
Just sit there, relax, don’t worry too much. Dismiss the data showing large segments of modern orthodoxy — whatever the large percentage exactly is — become irreligious secularites. You can wait to start worrying once you see all the methodologies, authors and subjects. Until then we can pretend everything is nice and pretty.
MSS: You’ve got to be kidding. I cited Rav Ahron’s published opinion in Mishnas Rabi Aharon on the previous page of this thread:
Rav Aharon and Rav Schneur (like Rav Elchonon hy’d) would under no circumstances walk into YU. At the funeral of a close friend of Rav Schneur that was taking place there, he had his driver circle the building until the procession came outside, at which point he joined.
The head of a “Modern Orthodox” school contacted Rabbi Pruzansky regarding the results of this study. See below for the money quote.
Relying on an oral report? Sounds like ancedotal evidence at best and typical wolf crying that seems to be standard procedure within the “chinuch” system.
I Would not be suprised to see this retracted in the very near future.
However, everyone here has already made up their minds and the people who feel like their derech is vindicated by the study will cheer and feel better about themselves while overlooking their own failures. While the MO crowd will continue to seek approval from people who will never consider them to be truely part of “Klal Yisroel”
I happen to know Feif Un outside the Coffee Room. We’re good friends. I spoke to him about this thread, and he gave me the ok to write about our conversation.
He really is gone from the CR. He had been considering it for a while and decided the time had come.
He’s mentioned before that he had a rough time spiritually growing up. He had some very rough times in yeshiva – he had bad rabbeim, bad experiences with the so-called “elter bachurim”, and other things. These things drove him away from his right-wing upbringing. For a while he wasn’t frum at all. He didn’t keep Shabbos. He didn’t keep kosher. He was dating a girl who was in a sorority in college.
Despite the rough times, he decided, on his own, to become frum again. Because of the rough times he had, he went with the Modern Orthodox route. This also caused him problems, with family and friends who didn’t approve of his choices. But he still fought back, and became frum again. In time, his family and friends saw how sincere he was as a Modern Orthodox Jew, and came to respect him for it.
He told me that seeing comments here such as these:
“Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus”
“If it’s M, it ain’t O. If it’s U, it ain’t Y. If it ain’t D, it’s OTD.”
“Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.
A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly…”
just remind him of why he left the path of Judaism years ago. He said that every time he hears people talking like that, for a second, he feels regret that he came back to frum Judaism.
I don’t understand how the so-called moderators can allow statements like those to be published. I know that I once spoke to Rabbi Yaakov Bender after he gave a speech on the internet, and asked him about the “frum” sites – such as YWN. He told me the Rabbonim on the Moetzes are against them, and tried to get YWN shut down, but the owner of the site ignored them. Now I understand why they were so against it.
The site needs a major overhaul in terms of the content allowed here. The Mods need to do a better job.
actually, after seeing the postings, it would be useful to see the so-called study that rabbi Pruzansky is referring to. I do not believe that it is true. Not by a long shot.To quote an anonymous, mysterious and unkonwn study is the height of hypocrisy.As in everything, show the study! Till then, I don’t believe it.
Love the backpedalling here. Its funny to watch these posters keep tripping themselves up while doing so.
Ha.
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