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It’s funny that you left out the other Pshatim if the Maharal. When there’s a point to make..
Everyone agrees that we aren’t Davenning to the Malachim and that we shouldn’t. The question is how distasteful Machnisei Rachamim is.
“Nobody prays to angels.
Regarding Machnisei Rachamim, for those that say this piece, it is asking the angels to do their job, so to speak.”
You is far less convincing than the academics who say that the Torah is from God but not really written until the time of Ezra! Machnisei Rachamim is a prayer directed towards angels and there is no way to get around it. I won’t say it and neither should anyone else who thinks that Rambam’s principles constitute the basics of normative rabbinic Judaism.
Yes, they believed in something that is heresy, but they were not heretics. They were mistaken.
“in the majority, the ???”? is not followed.”
Which just goes to show that Rambam’s 13 principles are NOT universally accepted today. For more examples of such, see Prof. Marc Shapiro’s book, *The Limits of Orthodox Theology*.
It is intellectually dishonest to attack someone for not holding by Rambam’s principles when you are defending reciting Machnisei Rachamim — or, even worse, say it yourself.
ZD,
If the OO can go to the NYT and claim that they are 90% of Jews and then get the rag of a paper to write such horrible column, they are indeed a problem.
They spend an inordinate amount of time proselytizing and placing items in all forms of media.
They even have one of the missionaries posting regularly on this site. They are a real problem they seem to even have you confused,
One might also ask why most shuls recite the “Anim Zmirot” which clearly treats God as corporeal. It is never recited in Rabbi Avi Weiss’s synagogue.
Charlie, that is just plain stupid (never mind my French). Why don’t we burn Shir Hashirim, which it is based on oncce we’re at it?
“in the majority, the ???”? is not followed.”
Which just goes to show that Rambam’s 13 principles are NOT universally accepted today.
No, it’s a legitimate machlokes whether that’s the kind of praying to malachim which is prohibited.
There’s no machlokes about whether believing that we are moshiach is what the Ramba”m meant.
Anim Zmiros actually takes the pains to explain how it is only a vision and not a depiction.
If you don’t think Machnisei Rachamim is telling the Malachim to do what is actually their job, what is it? The question is only the tone. There is no doubt here, if you understand the words, that it is not asking the Malachim for any Parnasa or success. It is about bringing our Tefillos to Hashem. That is their job. Is it praying to them? Good question.
We do know that we never pray to angels, and that for some reason even that Piyut is specifically on one topic. Those who continued this Piyut obviously didn’t think of it as praying to an angel, since they never engaged in that type of thing. When I say it, it is as the Maharal explained that it is not Tachnunim but rather a command. And if I wouldn’t know of this Pshat I would either have another Pshat or I would have a Kasha. But one thing I know it isn’t, a prayer to angels.
Dr. Hall:
I’m sorry I’m not convincing. I’ll try again, though.
Praying denotes ascribing omnipotence to the One to Whom we pray. Asking the Malachim to do that which they are supposed to do does not ascribe that attribute of G-d to the angels, which would, of course, be forbidden, though it does recognize the role that Hashem did give them.
For those whose mesorah is to say that piece, this seems like a very reasonable distinction. At the same time, I can certainly understand those whose mesorah is to not say that piece.
(Not that my opinion matters if there is a real mesorah both ways. Perhaps there are other reasons, too?)
Actually, Yeshivos and many shuls do not say Anim Zemiros. But what makes it mean that G-d is, CH”V, corporeal? As HaLeivi pointed out, there is plenty to find throughout Tanach, not just in Shir HaShirim, where one must read it allegorically.
Do you really believe, for example, “Ki biYad chazakah hotziacha Hashem miMitzrayim”, that G-d used his literal strong hand? Come on.
Go to their website and see how many graduates they really have, their graduates are not accepted by the RCA and most MO shuls will not hire Rabbis who are not members of the RCA.
The only places that would hire them are places that would hire JTS people.
There are lot more OTDers than YCT people. I doubt anyone here actually knows a YCT graduate or a member of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale. Most of us dont even know anyone in Riverdale
Outside of New York they are having a greater influence than you realize. And this is in places that would never accept a JTS rabbi.
ZD,
Your not knowing something is not reflective on the rest of us.
Neither is your not understanding something.
ZD, if you look at the list of their alumni, most of them do have jobs for which a JTS alum would be hired, such as Hillels and such. However, several YCT grads have been hired by places that would never hire a JTS grad (such as the Helsinki Chief Rabbinate — chief rabbis are pretty much always Orthodox — and a few solidly MO shuls in the US).
So please tell us exactly how many YCT graduated have gotten real pulpits?
Of course there are a few, but once you make an actual count instead of “theory” you will realize differently
I don’t know you, zahavasdad. By your logic, I guess you don’t exist.
I dont exist. I am an avatar
ZD, if you look at the list of their alumni, most of them do have jobs for which a JTS alum would be hired, such as Hillels and such. However, several YCT grads have been hired by places that would never hire a JTS grad (such as the Helsinki Chief Rabbinate — chief rabbis are pretty much always Orthodox — and a few solidly MO shuls in the US).
There are about 1500 jews in Helsinki, Its really not a lot. Ther are more jews on a block in Borough park
Why doesnt the Agudah apply for these jobs like Hillels or the Helsinki Chief Rabbi and Dont think it cant be Done Chabad does it and they are chief Rabbis in places like Ukraine and Russia and I dont know if they are head of any Hillels, but they do have Chabad houses on college campuses
I agree with Dr. Hall on this one
Really? Would you drink the wine of someone who says Machnisei Rachamim? Would you drink the wine of someone who doesn’t believe in Moshiach?
If the answers to those questions are yes and no, then you don’t really agree with him.
such as Hillels and such
To be clear: they are being hired at Hillels by the OU, under its JLIC program.
To be fair, most people who say it do so because it is in the selichos, and have the foggiest idea what it is.
“How about if he doesn’t wear techeiles, then would you care?”
If he can cogently give halachic reasoning for why he doesn’t then I respect that.
The Rambam says:
??? ???
???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????
???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????
If he can cogently give halachic reasoning for why he doesn’t then I respect that.
Oh, the halacha man are you. Don’t you think it is halacha that you are supposed to daven? See your previous post that you don’t care if he davens.
You’ve quite frankly argued yourself into circles, probably because you forgot what your original position was.
We’re not being ???? them by asking them to bring our tefillos to Him.
S’dei Chemed has a long piece defending the recital of Machnisei Rachamim.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43519&st=&pgnum=6&hilite=
As HaLeiVi points out, the Mahara”l had two ways of defending it; although his conclusion is not to say it, he clearly would not consider someone who does say it to be in violation of the principle recorded by the Ramba”m.
Charlie is completely off base here.
pba:
Let me explain myself. I don’t particularly care what any person does in his service of the Lord. I don’t mean that I don’t care at all; obviously I would love for everyone to serve the Lord properly. But it doesn’t bother me one iota how an individual chooses to do so. That being said, if someone can defend there actions then he is deserving of respect that someone who cannot defend his actions is not deserving of. Regardless of whether the issue is whether he davens or whether he wears Techeiles. Techeiles happens to be a good example because probably most people who don’t wear techeiles don’t really know why they don’t; they kind of just follow the crowd so to speak.
People who don’t wear techeiles know they don’t wear it because the art has been long lost. It is not out of ignorance that they don’t wear it.
Chashukei Chemed (Berachos 60b):
???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? “?????? ?????”, ???? ???? ???? ?????…
??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ‘????? ?????’ ?? ??????
Sefer Melamed Hatalmidim (Yisro):
?? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???’ ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????
PAA: I know a Rav who once told his Talmidim that they shouldn’t wear T’cheiles because he doesn’t wear T’cheiles. He doesn’t wear it because his Rav doesn’t wear it, etc. And he said when you have 3 generations of Rabbonim who do/don’t do something then it gets a Halachic status. I responded to him that I’m very sad to know he won’t be eating Korban Pesach with me B’vias Goel.
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sam2, why do you have to come onto Korbon Pesach? Whtat about all the mitzvos hatluyos baaretz that was not noheg for hundreds of years?
I wrote a long statement and decided to just write a short(er) piece on the issue with R’ Shmuly and his ilk.
Open Orthodoxy is the Conservative Movement of old – plain and simple. Just with a new spin (though it’s not the first to have such a spin in the history of Judaism). Instead of allowing practices for many traditionally minded Jews that wanted to fit into American society (like being able to drive on Shabbos, family purity, marriage laws, details of kashrus etc.) and still not feel guilty about their Judaism, it is bending hashkafa to allow for many observant and traditional Jews again on the border of Orthodoxy that want to fit into America’s very pervasive and narrow-minded secular culture. Just like with the Conservative movement, “out of town communities” are the first to face the issue head on as the general populace is less educated than areas with high density populations of observant Jews as a whole. In short, the modern American Jew does have that hard of time to eat kosher, go to a shiur, or even to walk to a shul…but he or she does have a problem believing in a morality system that all the media and many of their acquaintances so strongly disagree with.
This is serious. Even in a sense more so than the Conservative movement that while tragic, did not affect the Orthodox movements and remained distinct. Open Orthodoxy is not distinct. They want their conversions recognized, their wisdom lauded, and they want to be accepted by the Orthodox. They already have their supporters in the ranks of modern leaning Orthodox like even the RCA (it was to my knowledge a hotly contested matter if YCT grads should be accepted at least until recently) and forced the Rabbinate in Israel to change course in their acceptance of conversion policy by using political force. This is not just am aratzim saying dumb things (R’ Shmuly is not someone I know personally but from what I hear he is a very nice person who just does not know better, same with the previous OO Rabbi in Phoenix who I did meet that just was clueless to the lines of Orthodoxy vs. non Torah thinking). The leadership do know what’s what, though they play the ignorance card. At least the early talmedei chachim in Conservative movement were doing it for the position and money! This is worse. This is a religious matter. They feel altruistically that Orthodoxy must be drastically changed. This should be an alarming matter for anyone that is believing Torah Jew.
Let me explain myself. I don’t particularly care what any person does in his service of the Lord. I don’t mean that I don’t care at all; obviously I would love for everyone to serve the Lord properly. But it doesn’t bother me one iota how an individual chooses to do so. That being said, if someone can defend there actions then he is deserving of respect that someone who cannot defend his actions is not deserving of. Regardless of whether the issue is whether he davens or whether he wears Techeiles. Techeiles happens to be a good example because probably most people who don’t wear techeiles don’t really know why they don’t; they kind of just follow the crowd so to speak.
Sure, but your position starting off was a technical question of whether one is a apikores for denying that there will be a geulah.
In which I note you’ve argued yourself into circles and quite forgotten what you’re argument is.
So if a Kofer in Techeiles is also Kofer on Moshiach that might be a redeeming factor, since he won’t have Sam’s problem.
zahavasdad: I actually do know a YCT graduate. We used to be neighbors and davened at the same shul. He ended up getting a job as a Rabbi somewhere and moved away.
He happens to be a very nice guy. I’ve written before that one thing we can learn from Avi Weiss is ahavas Yisrael. But I wouldn’t use him as my Rabbi, because hashkafically, I just don’t agree with his views.
The shul he went to is officially an Orthodox shul, but he told me that there were members who drove to shul on Shabbos. He also told me he planned to make it “the first Orthodox shul in NJ that has an official kiddush club, attended by the Rabbi.”
“Sure, but your position starting off was a technical question of whether one is a apikores for denying that there will be a geulah.
In which I note you’ve argued yourself into circles and quite forgotten what you’re argument is.”
I don’t think my position has changed. I’m still discussing whether denying the geulah makes you an apikores. There was a side point that on a personal level it doesn’t bother me what anyone believes. You then brought in techeiles (presumably it was somewhat in jest and making fun of the fact that I have been talking about techeiles a lot lately). But I don’t see that I changed anything.
“I know a Rav who once told his Talmidim that they shouldn’t wear T’cheiles because he doesn’t wear T’cheiles. He doesn’t wear it because his Rav doesn’t wear it, etc. And he said when you have 3 generations of Rabbonim who do/don’t do something then it gets a Halachic status.”
A halachic status k’neged halacha?
Ok, so odu li mihas that even if you personally don’t care whether there is kiddush Hashem or chillul Hashem in the world, that a person who does not believe in the geulah is not practicing Judaism
“Ok, so odu li mihas that even if you personally don’t care whether there is kiddush Hashem or chillul Hashem in the world, that a person who does not believe in the geulah is not practicing Judaism”
Well that is the whole topic that we are debating. I have no problem with saying that people who believe XYZ are heretics as long as you are consistent and say that people who believed XYZ in the past are also heretics.
Nothing to do with heretics.
PAA- that’s not fair at all. 1,000 years ago, the people who believed in fairies were wrong, and we know that now. People who believe in fairies today are not just wrong, but stupid. Same case here. Someone who made an incorrect hashkafic calculation generations ago was wrong. Now that they have been wrong for years, for you to agree with them is like believing in fairies, in that both are stupid.
Also, do you remember that you posted:
?
Tbontb wrote:
Question is, does he represent the opinions of OO, or are these just his twisted, delusional,( apikorsish) views?
We have here someone claiming to be a Rabbi with smicha from YCT writing apikorsos in a very public forum. The WSJ is portraying him as an Orthodox Rabbi. Rabbi Hoffman took umbrage to this and therefore wrote his piece in order to try and publicize the fact that not all Orthodox Jews consider this man to be Orthodox. If YCT truly feels the same way then they too should be making a public machaah and should also revoke his smicha. From the fact that they haven’t, we can see that they obviously agree with him and feel that he represents their views.
Ive never heard of anyone revoking Smicha, although I could be wrong about that. Is there a case of BMG for example revoking a Smicha from someone
Thank you for the answer to my question (finally!). actually in todays WSJ there were two counter arguments so that’s good
42: I don’t expect them to revoke his Smicha. The issue with revoking Smicha is that it gives an implicit stamp of approval on other Smichas. Then they’d have to start drawing lines about too many individuals, which isn’t right or fair.
They should, however, publicly distance themselves from his (and Zev Farber’s) opinions. Their lack of doing so is glaring.
I don’t expect YCT, or any yeshiva, to revoke smicha so quickly. But, as Sam said, they should at least feel an achrayus for anything said by their musmachim and distance themselves from dangerous hashkafos. By not doing so, they show that they to some extent agree with them.
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