- This topic has 97 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 7 months, 2 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
@avirah
Not the gerrer rebbe allowed . The Moetset allowed it.
Without any extenuating circumstances.
No one made a fuss at the time about government participation. Besides those who were against behiroth, they made a fuss about the behiroth.
When giyus banot came up , aguda resigned from the gov in protest.By the way, Rav Shach claims that when he spent a lot of time with the Brisker Rav during his final illness , the Rav agreed to his approach of being mishtatef in the governing of the medina.
So much for the protests from the brisk side.
.@simcha
Your approach is dangerous.
You advocate for pure , temimi and young yeshiva boys to be taken out of tevat noach in to the waters of the raging mabul.
I do not know your credentials. But I am guessing you are not an exceptional talmid haham. Nor an exceptional yarei shamayim. Nor an exceptional pikeach. [not that sure about this last one]
All three of which are needed to navigate and decide this complex question.
So – my humble suggestion is to let the people who do possess the above 3 qualities in abundance , to decide.Re ‘sharing the burden’ , please refer to Sh’A YD hilhot ta’t where they exempt talmidei hahamim from contributing funds to the defense of the city they inhabit .
Based on a gemara in Bava Batra. And without any holek.
.>>>What Rav shachs understanding of the differences were is beyond my understanding; i have emunas chachamim that he saw a significant change which permitted joining the government.
It is inaccurate to ascribe the change exclusively to Rav Schach. (see below) It was the unanimous decision of the Moetzes to join Begin’s coalition in 1977. And due to change in status quo they were making they asked the American Moetzes for outside approval first. Which was quickly give to them. The reason for the change was simple. They realized that they were dealing with a different situation. It shouldn’t be hard to find a Jewish Observer online from that period that will explain it to you further.
According to Menachem Porush, Rav Schach was actually from the more resistant members of the Moetzes to joining Begin’s coalition. He insisted he would only do so if there was no chance of Shimon Peres making a coalition anyway. Because Shimon Peres had consistently opposed drfting Yeshiva Bochurim over the years and Rav Schach felt the Charieidi world owed him hakoras hatov
It’s also inaccurate to claim that the Charidie world did not take cabinet position until recently. Reb Itche Meri Levin was the minister of social welfare in 1948-1949.
>>>rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk for changing the yeshiva world’s policy
I’m not going to post it here but the seven words from gemora (a unrelated and non haskafa sugya ) that Rav Chaim Shumelvitz quoted in response after being told that he is being criticized in Brisk for not going along with their view on the state of Israel is something you should really know if you are concerned about that criticism
yankel> exempt talmidei hahamim from contributing funds to the defense of the city they inhabit .
So, it seems to me that there are two possible approaches to justify non-participation:
(1) medina is built by non/anti-religious people, many mitzvos do not apply towards them, so l’hathila there is no shared obligation, we are protecting ourselves from them
(2) halachik exemptions for Talmidei ChachamimOn (1), I appreciate historical and cultural tradition, with religious community being confronted by various ideologies. I do not think it applies to current day government and, even more, population. Israel is full of non-charedi shomer shabbos and stam masorti people, they are represented in the government, and mitzvos apply towards them for sure. Many, many of the other ones are tinokos shenishba (by earlier generations of anti-religious). These are people you will daven with together in a minyan at the kosel, so other mitzvos also apply.
On (2), maybe we can have a serious discussion what this implies. Who qualifies; what obligations and non-obligations are T’Ch entitled to; do they need agreement of others or can T’Ch demand their rights. Many, manhy questions here. For example, same Bava Basra brings an example of R Yehuda’s student who refused to admit his learning in order to get food during famine. This seems to be the opposite of the entitlement attitude.
So we are all in agreement? Dr Friedman believes that the Haredi way of life is parasitic, and seeks to end it using IDF conscription. This implies that activists for “Equality of Burden” are at least partially motivated by the desire to eradicate Haredism, and consequently, that they believe that IDF conscription of youth will lead to this outcome. Now we don’t have to agree with them, maybe they are wrong and enlisting in the IDF will not hurt the Haredi way of life, but it’s still a relevant tidbit.
Here is another fun tidbit: a dictionary entry. Pay special attention to the third definition.genocide (countable and uncountable, plural genocides)
The systematic and deliberate destruction of a group of people, typically by killing substantial numbers of them, on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, or nationality.
(by extension) The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on other grounds.
(by extension) The systematic suppression of ideas or practices on the basis of cultural or ethnic origin; culturicide.@smerel
According to Menachem Porush, Rav Schach was actually from the more resistant members of the Moetzes to joining Begin’s coalition. He insisted he would only do so if there was no chance of Shimon Peres making a coalition anyway. Because Shimon Peres had consistently opposed drfting Yeshiva Bochurim over the years and Rav Schach felt the Charieidi world owed him hakoras hatov
—-
Don’t think this is accurate.
RShach had actually a very negative view of Peres.
He even refused to meet him during the eighties and nineties.
As opposed to Rabin who did agree to meet.@AAQ
What you happen to call ‘entitlement attitude’ , the Sh’A states as halaha psuka without holek.
And rama clearly delineates there what type of ta’ch we are talking about.And even Sh’a does not talk about putting your impressionable youth under the authority of non or anti religious people who have a clear agenda.
.
This is MAJOR stuff by the way , not to be decided by people like you or me .
.A boy of 18 [draft age] is after 4 years of yeshiva only and is still a little kid .
He is NOT after 15 – 20 years of talmud torah. Not at all.
Not for nothing have the dati leumi educators estimated that thirty percent of their army recruits go OTD as a result of their conscription.This is not pessimism. This is realism.
The OVERWHELMING majority of people excelling in those 3 areas [torah ,yirat shamayim and pikhut] agree to what I wrote.
Am not sure if you would be able to name even one who disagreed with what I wrote.
.
In addition, I was writing in regard of the haredi learners, the fulltime bochrim and marrieds. Not haredim who do not learn.Re Majority or minority of the town – this is irrelevant, it would obviously depend on the makeup of the town. Sometimes everyone qualifies, sometimes no one qualifies. All depends on the type of inhabitants.
Sh’A reasoning is that t’ch lo ba’ei netirutah. There shouldn’t be any difference between wartime and peacetime in regard of ‘shouldering the burden’, if they are ‘lo ba’ei netiruta’ .
Am not talking here about immediate p/n.
Am only referring to the ‘sharing the burden’ argument.
.@smerel
am curious re the seven words quote from r ch shm ?
and what was the criticism about ?
and how musmach is the source ?
thanks>>>RShach had actually a very negative view of Peres.
He even refused to meet him during the eighties and nineties.
As opposed to Rabin who did agree to meet.I highly doubt Rav Schach ever met Yitzchok Rabin who was a lot more secular and had a less interaction with the frum world than Shimon Peres.
Rav Schach’s view of Shimon Peres in the 1990s does not detract from the hakaras hatov felt to him in the 1970s. Or any subsequent time either. If there were a secular politician today who strongly championed the cause of not drafting Yeshiva bochurim, few people would feel hakoras hatov to him, the kanoim would hate him anyway. Back then things were different. Even members of the American moetzes went to to Moshe Dayan to personally thank him for having fought that Yeshiva bochurim should not be drafted
>>>am curious re the seven words quote from r ch shm ?
I’m not going to say it on an online forum because I know it will misused afterwards. All I will say is that it was a very good quote illustrating both what is wrong with not following the Chazon Ish’s haskafa that the more extreme Zionists are fighting the wrong battle today and what motivates them to continue doing so
yankel,
I am not deciding anything here, just trying to understand the issue. entitlement attitude does not start & end with a specific issue of draft. Before going to exemptions, let’s start from the beginning – what are person’s position & obligation towards a community and a country. If you agree that you part of the community, then certain obligation might apply or not. Say, Bava Basra says town dwellers need to contribute to protection. T’Ch do not need protection and thus only contribute to upkeep and not security.One major question here is who is a T’Ch here. As you mention above, you are thinking of a vulnerable 18-y.o. with 4 years of yeshiva. We are bnot talking about exempting Roshe Yeshivos.
There is YD 243:2, for example. What does it say?
There are many mailos of a T’Ch not all of them strictly halachik,. Here is a couple that might be halachik:
If you see a T’Ch doing aveira in the evening (sic!), do not reprimand him in the morning as he surely did teshuva. So, anyone who did not do teshuva for an aveira for a day is not T’Ch?Just came up in B’M daf: you can give T’Ch his lost object without simanim if he is only known to change his words re: learning, bed, having good dinners. So, anyone who said something crooked unjustified is not a T’Ch for this halakha….
All of that does not mean that there are no good reasons to keep 18-yo away from non-religious army. But if you appreciate that you have an obligation and looking to justify avoiding spiritual dangers, then start actively working on alternatives that could at least partially compensate. Organize fully chareidi units; help with training; work in cyber security; take jobs from people who are deployed (major limitation of Israeli army is that most large operations have to be quick to return people to work, can’t afford a standing army …); work more than others to pay for the things that even Talmidei Chachamim are supposed to pay – roads, water, electricity … If you don’t, that is what I call “entitlement attitude”.
@smerel
I highly doubt Rav Schach ever met Yitzchok Rabin who was a lot more secular and had a less interaction with the frum world than Shimon Peres.
—-
I remember when r’Sh met Rabin in his house.@AAQ
Hope to answer in due course
It’ll take too much time now.yankel, will wait, but you can start by simply saying what your current assumptions are what is T’Ch to whom halochos are applicable. you surely had something in mind when referring to it.
@AAQ
As far as I remember now [from quite a while ago] rama is delineating someone as as a t’ch if he uses his time only for learning and melacha up until kdei hayov and , is a yarei shamayim and , is a meivin midaato berov mekomot beshas ubesifrei hageonim vehaposkim.Ok, and then how many of those 18 y o qualify under this definition?
@AAQ
You might be very pleasantly surprised about the level of the yeshiva bahurim in EY .
When was the last time you talked in learning with one of them ?I had to scroll up to see if that was some other yankel berel who wrote that these are young vulnerable kids who learned for 4 years, but already learned rov geonim veposkim.
If you are really serious, maybe this is a good time to define a psychometry type test to measure learning, and those who pass can somehow justify an exemption, charedi or not.
It is also scary then that someone with such learning can fall vulnerable to tzahal… as we know talmid chacham will do teshuva in the morning if you see him doing an aveirah in the evening. So, if you send someone to tzahal and he comes back and continues learning, it was wrong to send him; but if he comes back otd, then he wasn’t talmid chochom to begin with, and he was justifiable drafted. Sort of a breira.
@AAQ
I had to scroll back to see what yankel berel really wrote about who is considered a t’ch.
Then I scrolled back to see how AAQ quoted yb .Then I scratched my head.
yb wrote- meivin midaato berov mekomot hashas verov geonim ve poskim …
aaq quoted “already learned rov geonim veposkim ….”Spot the difference ….
.In the Israeli Army, all foods served are kosher,
and it is prohibited to bring non-kosher foods from the outside.In the Israeli Army, it is prohibited to cook on Shabbat.
Soldiers have been disciplined [punished] for disobeying these rules.
‘…. start actively working on ALTERNATIVES that could at least partially compensate. Organize fully chareidi units; help with training; work in cyber security; take jobs from people who are deployed (major limitation of Israeli army is that most large operations have to be quick to return people to work, can’t afford a standing army…..”
AAQ makes the basic point that there will have to be some requirement for Charedi service. Its a mathematical reality that the fastest growing demographic in EY will have to participate in national defense beyond sitting in a beis medrash while others are required to incur the physical and economic burdens of service. If they fear military service than there are literally dozens of public service roles they can assume for a year or two to support those in military service. The “status quo” from 1948 is no longer viable.
Apologies to those who know “sitting in a bais medrash” is a disparaging term for learning.
Will have to be some requirement for haredi service….
Based on ?
On Sh’A and poskim ?
Simcha, the poskim said it’s abizrayhu l’giluy arayos for a girl to be taken from the house of either her father or husband.
You’ll probably dismiss that as outmoded thinking, but i couldn’t care less the gedolei olam who knew more than you and me when they were 5 said so.
I do not support sherut leumi but I’ve never heard an intelligent explanation of why it is so terrible other than have emunas chachomim , the gedloim said it is .wrong. WHY it is so wrong and so inherently different from say jury duty is something I do not understand. (this is assuming there is an actual pressing need for national service. Not the government insisting on it to show who is the boss,, which my have been the case in the early days of the state of Israel)
Simcha, the chazon ish and others explained that when a girl is forced – not voluntarily – to leave the reshus of her husband or father, that is “taking” our daughter away and it is in the category of laws which surround giluy arayos.
A father sending his daughter to seminary is voluntary.
edited
>>>Simcha, the chazon ish and others explained that when a girl is forced – not voluntarily – to leave the reshus of her husband or father
I don’t understand that explanation. With what is she in anyone else’s reshus by doing some civilian position volunteer work? Sheurus Lumi girl sleep at home, choose where to volunteer, and technically aren’t really forced to sign up to begin these days. How is that being in someone elses’s rshus?
Sending to seminaries is not voluntary as the girls believe b’emuna shleima, influenced by their teachers and wise peers, that not going there will lead them to a life without friends and shidduchim.
Sherut leumi could be a good idea and could be started as a volunteer service, encouraged by chachomim and organized in a proper way. Surely, there are a multitudes of way to do chesed that satisfy both charedi and medina requirements.
You can come to the irrefutable conclusion that draft is shmad by answering the following questions
What is the rate of going off the derech for Haredi soldiers, as compared to Haredi boys not in the army?
If the draft is implemented, and all Haredi boys go to the military, will the rate of OTD in the army drastically lower?
What will be the impact of the OTD rate of Haredi recruits on the Haredi society?Now you may say that shmad is an acceptable price to pay for the security of the State, but that would be a different conversation. The original question asked wither the draft is Shmad, and it is indubitably.
yankel berel, thanks for correcting my sloppy reference to knowing all poskim instead of being able to navigate them (Hashem somehow wanted me to acknowledge this at least twice as the first one did not show up). Not relying on my own reading, I searched how others understand this Ramo, and it seems that it is understood as a pretty high requirement. also, someone mentions that Ramo brings this solely as a criterion for someone not to pay taxes in a community, while it is Hazon Ish who is elevating the criterion to a general definition of a Talmid Chacham.
So, I would be interested in seeing an exam that verifies learning qualities according to Ramo’s definition.
But maybe it is all in vain. I see in R Twersky a discussion about who is a chossid (in my eyes, a mailah higher than T’Ch):
A: the one who wants to be a chossid
Q: but who does NOT want to be a chossid!?
A: the one who thinks he already is a chossid.@simcha
@smerel
@gedolhdorah
and fellow travelersIsn’t it ironic that davka on the issue of ‘sharing the burden’ , where the haredim are VOLUNTARILY so involved in .
The myriad gemahim literally thousands of them . All the gabbai’im of the countless tsdakka organisations .All the mothers of large families who are literally moser nefesh to care for them. Not to talk about hatsala , zaka , yad sarah etc. .
Thats Besides all the people who DEDICATE THEIR WHOLE LIVES TO OTHERS,
Davka on this very issue there is so much criticism.
Compare the average haredi with the average secular person . How much time and how much effort and how much of a share of their finances, is expended by each of them during a typical day on others vs oneself.The seculars preach about altruism , but the problem is that they preach about their own type of altruism .
They are not prepared to recognize haredi altruism , it doesn’t fit in their worldview , therefore it does not exist in their minds.
So they are totally blind to it.
No wonder they are talking about entitlement attitudes.They want a government controlled , a bureaucratically IMPOSED system of altruism .
From the top down.
THEY WANT TO CONTROL the haredim.
Thats THE issue, in my view at least.And , sad to say , we are getting influenced by their propaganda.
Hence our talk about ‘entitlement attitude’ in this context.
.Smerel, that’s sherut leumi in its current form, but it is still obligatory for all citizens without religious exemption. And many sefardi girls have a hard time getting that exemption, especially if they don’t look charedi.
Forced work outside of the home is what the chazon ish was very worried about. And it wasn’t as if it was a machlokes; the gedolei yisroel all said it was yehereg velo yaavor.
Simcha – i agree that pure volunteering isn’t what the chazon ish was concerned with. But you’d need to make sure rhe environment was kosher, which often is not the case.
Bear in mind that compulsory sherut leumi was just the backup plan once the medina saw that the frum would never let their girls into the military. Mizrachi didn’t see that and supported it, which caused a lot of problems for the Torah world, because the frei went and said “why is it good enough for them and not you”
Also, if a girl wants to volunteer – there’s plenty of chessed needed within the frum community, and shomrei Torah umitzvos have priority.
yankel, avirah, so this is a great opportunity to increase chesed – towards other groups – that will be a great step towards reconciliation. Let’s not hang on the “compulsary” and “government mandated” – increase volunteer contribution and, ,I am sure, it will be recognized by the society at large. Maybe not by the most anti-religious groups, but there are plenty of traditional people who will judge favorably. Maybe the barrier to that is the self-aggrandizing attitude that prevents people from seeing what others do to them. So, if you then conclude that your own community is a priority, do not be surprised that others see their communities as a priority and do not want to pay taxes to support yours.
hi did you receive my post ?
Some random places which can help define a Talmid Chacham:
Bava Basra 22: Rav Dimi tries to use a privilege for a T’Ch to sell his figs on the local market (I think because he is out of town, only locals who pay taxes are allowed otherwise?) – but fails a test posed by R Ada b Aba sent by Resh Galuta. And some controversy about it …
Seem to have several ideas here:
– T’Chacham privileges relate to not paying taxes (i.e. OOT T’Ch is considered as a local, and the latter is defined as paying taxes).
– T’Ch can use this privilege only as he is involved in business, kind of not useful for a f/t kollelnik (or can his wife come to the market while he shteigs?)
– Resh Galuta has a testing system, not judging people by their hattire.
– There is also Rava who did not let some T’Ch to open store in Mehuza so that they learn. Not sure what this leads to.Bava Basra 9 – butchers deciding to take halocha in their own hands. I recall the conclusion is that a guild is OK to make and enforce their decision (including slashing hides of free-marketeers) – but only if there is no T’Ch in town. So, this defines T’Ch as someone who can wisely establish a commercial policy that resolves tensions between pretty aggressive businessmen (with sharp knives).
@simcha
If the army is so understaffed that Dati Leumi talmidim in Mechina and Hesder are being pulled out early…
—-
Don’t really like challenging people like you , butis the reason they are pulled out early because they are understaffed and there is no other way besides pulling them out early,
or
is it that they do not care so much about pulling them out , so out of the various options they might have at their disposal, this was the easiest one , so why not .
.
This reminds me a bit of PM Bennet, a ‘religious’ Jew [remember him?] traveling on shabbat to make peace between Russia and Ukraine.
If he is mehalel shabat for it , imagine how important it must be ….> a ‘religious’ Jew [remember him?] traveling on shabbat to make peace between Russia and Ukraine
Naive maybe, but were he to succeed, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive including thousands of Jews, and with immeasurable impact on world politics, including Israel. Might have been enough justification.
When we discuss a thesis: how many haredim qualify as full-time Talmidei Chachamim to be exempt, can we agree on the following answer:
between 5% and 95% of them?Not 0, as there are T’Ch we will all agree on, and not 100, as there are people who are not learning, not capable of learning, working on a side, do not have right middos, etc.
Anyone disagrees?
@aaq
Naive maybe, but were he to succeed, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive including thousands of Jews, and with immeasurable impact on world politics, including Israel. Might have been enough justification.
=======================
Naive. That is exactly the description of someone who thinks that motzei shabbat would be too late for his “peace mission”.yankel, you are at the great madregah of Chaim Brisker’s family member (*) who called a doctor for a sick kid on shabbos. Chaim Brisker suggested adding logs to the fire so that the doctor could see better. The family member started evaluating in his mind whether it is necessary to do that or the doctor can do without. R Chaim got annoyed and went to add logs himself. With your shitah, there would be nobody to lead YU later on …
(*) the way I recall the story was written, it is clear who the person is, but the story does not name him.
@aaq
I don’t know anyone called ‘Chaim Brisker’ ….Time to upgrade your Kvod HaTorah .
Maybe then, as a result, your power to be correctly medameh milta lemilta will be upgraded too.
.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.