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In one of the postings (I think it was about music and lipa), someone mentioned that Reb Shlomo Carlebach z’l was considered “a bad boy”. As I am a fervent and avid supporter of Shlomo’s derech and think of him as a Tsaddik, can you, out there, tell me what you think about his music, his Nussach hatefillah and, lastly, his derech in ahavas yisroel. Please be circumspect in your words!
rabbiofberlin, what do you make of the mixed dancing and shomer negiah issue?
I greatly respected R’ Shlomo Z”L. His music was incredibly beautiful, inspiring, and changed the face of Jewish music to make it truly “singable” and emotionally connected to the masses. There was a time, nevertheless, that some people found his derech of kiruv to be a little “out there.” I believe that he indiscriminately reached out to so many disenfranchised people both male and female, and was responsible for the return of many Jewish souls to the Derech Ha-Shem. He used Ahavas Yisroel, and put his money where his mouth was, in order to draw Jewish youth closer. If anyone has anything critical to say about his methods, I would love to know exactly how many lost souls THEY helped return to Torah life.
I’m going to limit my comments to Shlomo Carlebach’s (SC) influence on synagogue music. The other issues I leave to those more knowledgeable than I. I heard SC daven a few times. His nusach, while techinically correct, was bland; pedestrian even. He really didn’t do anything with it. But then again he made to claim to being a cantor. It was his melodies on which he focused. Some were good in terms of nusach, others not. All in all, I think SC himself tried to adhere to the klalei hanusach. But it is legacy that is dismal. Sadly he failed to impart to his successors the importance of maintaining the nusach. At this point a Carlebach davening is little more than a Romper Room song fest pandering to the aesthetically lowest common denominator. What Young Israel didn’t kill in terms of dignified davening, SC’s progeny anihilated.
Rabbiof berlin: If you care at all about the honor of the “tzaddik” Shloimele, you would NOT HAVE STARTED THIS BLOG. Do you really want to get people started…? As i type, I must control myself from exclaiming how you can bring up this “tzaddik” constantly on a blog which you know is populated by yeshiva and chassidish people…But it is assur to speak loshon hara, including on someone that is not here with us anymore. So, please, do us all a favor and refrain from mentioning him again.
Yes, Shlomo caused many people to become frum. However, what level of frumkeit did he lead them to? One where they think mixed dancing and touching people of the opposite gender is allowed?
Someone once asked him why he felt it was ok to touch women. He replied, “If you see a woman drowning, would you hesitate to save her because you can’t touch her? Of course not. Nowadays, the entire world is drowning.”
Obviously, he was missing the boat with his reasoning. His intentions were good, just his methods were lacking. They say he was depressed also for years. When I was in yeshiva, there was a question whether it was ok to listen to his music. The thought was that since R’ Moshe even had a teshuva on it, maybe it should be avoided even though R’ Moshe said it was ok (kind of like Cholov Yisrael). One Rebbe told us that he heard from his Rebbe, R’ Mendel Kaplan, that it was muttar to listen to Carlebacj music, but that doing so would get you depressed, as Carlebach himself was depressed, and it went into his music.
The Rosh Yeshiva of my yeshiva said it was fully muttar, by the way, but that we shouldn’t think Carlebach was a real Rabbi – he said straight out “He was a hippie.”
Feif Un, Wow, that comment sounded like it was written by anyone but you! 🙂
Joseph, why do you say that? because you think I don’t have a Rosh Yeshiva? I’ve said it before, your attacks on me were entirely unjustified.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I don’t agree that things are right or wrong, I just don’t judge the person based on what they do. I think Carlebach did many things wrong. However, I don’t think he’s a bad person because of it – just misguided, and I definitely wouldn’t force him to change. Still, I do recognize him for what he was.
Joseph, you need to work on your Ahavas Yisrael. You should love and respect every Jew, whether they live their lives the way you do or not.
Feif Un, You are assuming false imputations. Who said anything about a Rosh Yeshiva, etc.?
Feif Un, I submit not only is your criticism wrong, you are commenting on what your mirror reflects.
I think what Shloime meant by the example of the drowning woman was why it was mutar for him in his kiruv work to break these gedarim but itwas not a heter for the klal.
By the way his stories are gevaldig.
Feif Un, You said “I don’t agree that things are right or wrong, I just don’t judge the person based on what they do.” I’m sorry, but that is where our differences lie. That statement, in particular, is the complete polar opposite of Torah values.
No, Joseph, the Torah does not want you to judge the person themselves based on their actions. You can’t say someone is a bad person just because they transgress something written in the Torah. People struggle with different things. It doesn’t make someone a bad person. You still have to love every Jew, and daven that they do teshuva, that’s all.
rabbiofberlin: Yes, many talmidim of Shlomo are very frum now. Was that because of what Shlomo taught them, or because of what other Rabbonim taught them later on? Yes, he was mekarev many people, but the ends don’t justify the means.
As for my comparison to the teshuva of Cholov Yisrael, I didn’t mean R’ Moshe’s psak wasn’t on the level. I wrote about the conversation in my yeshiva. People there said that yes, R’ Moshe said cholov stam is ok, but that fact that there’s a teshuva about it says something, and maybe we should be machmir. Personally, I’m not machmir, and I eat cholov stam. They said the same thing about Carlebach – the fact that R’ Moshe saw the need to write the teshuva down says something, and maybe we should be machmir. That’s all.
Just for the record, I personally don’t enjoy many of Carlebach’s songs. Many sound to me like funeral marches, and a lot of them sound the same to me. They have the same basic rhythm in them, so if you don’t like one, chances are you won’t like plenty of others. There a some which I do enjoy. However, I recognize who Shlomo was, and don’t look up to him as someone to emulate – except possibly in his level of ahavas Yisrael, although I wouldn’t show it the same way he did.
To cantoresq.Sorry to say that, but to you , Ravel and Stravinsky also lowered the level of musical appreciation. What you wrote convinced me that you don’t have a clue about music or understanding of Jewish tefillos. Maybe you have the same affliction as Beethoven, G-d forbid.
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Geneidige Berlin Oberrabbiner:
I never commented on Ravel or Stravinsky. But now that you raise it, indeed 12 tone music was never my thing, but I’m a big fan of the Bolero and of The Firebird. But “mah inyan shmitah. . .” SC was no Ravel nor Stravinsky. As to your assertion that I “Don’t have a clue about music or understanding of Jewish tefillos,” you are simply wrong. I’ve spent nearly half my life studying nusach and how to best apply it to the text of the siddur. It was SC and mainly his progeny that destroyed the traditional music of prayer. Permit me to ask you this, is the Mimkomcha that appears on SC’s album Haneshama Lach, in accordance with the nusach?
rabbiofberlin, If being mechallel shabbos would work for some people as a kiruv tool, can one be mechallel shabbos for kiruv’s sake? If not where do we draw the line? At chillul shabbos but not shomer negiah?
oomis said, “There was a time, nevertheless, that some people found his derech of kiruv to be a little “out there.” “
Oh, was there? Why the past tense? Kiruv rechokim is a great thing, and I am not someone with any bragging rights in that area, but I don’t think that “his derech” is the way to do it. Check with a knowledgeable source.
Rabbi:
you write:
“well, to Think big and all the others who have commented on this post. Interestingly, most of the comments are negative, which is VERY illustrative of the readers of this website.”
Rabbi, may your ears hear what your mouth speaks! (or in this case, may your eyes read what your fingers type! hy, pray tell did you bring this up if you KNEW that most of the comments hers would be negative. It’s like waving a red flag in front of an angry bull and saying, “see, i told you he can’t control himself! ” Did you expect differently? What exactly did you expect, for goodness sakes? Did you even conside the ramifications of your post before you sent it off??
I am not PONTIFICATING about loshon hora. I am merely telling you to use your head before posting about such a “controvertial” figure (and im using that word in a kind way) Your letter was so full of nonsense, and backward reasoning that i could take it apart bit by bit, but i dont think I will bother, because I dont trust myself not to get into loshon Hora with this subject.
rabbiofberlin, my question still remains. In your evaluation can a Kiruv worker be mechallel shabbos if he feels he may be able to be mekarev someone? Yes or No?
to cantoresq…I do not understand your question about mimkomcho at all.Is there any specific nussach that is immutable on that part of kedusha? I have heard countless of different variations on mimkomchu
As far as nussach in general, pray tell, which nussach are you talking about? the Chassidische nussach? the maharil’s? Maybe Levandowsky? Or maybe the yemenite one? there are as many nussachs as there are Jewish people and thank G-d for them. Sure, there is a traditional nussach on many of the tefillos but so what? Shlomo zz’l initiated a new nussach, specifically for kabbolas shabbos, and half the world sings it now. I am sorry that you don’t like his songs and music but this is a far cry from saying that “his progeny destroyed the traditional music of prayer”. PLEEZE!!!
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Indeed Mimkomcho, like the rest of the Shacharit Kedusho is supposed to be suing int he Ahava Rabbah mode. SC’s is in the western (i.e. not the pentatonic) major. How do I know the rule on might ask. Look in any primary source of nusach, like Baer’s Ba’al Tefilah, Ephros’ anthology, Ravitz’s books, Ne’eman’s books, and they all set Mimkomcho in the ahava Rabbah.
When I refer to nusach, I refer to the traditional prayer modes as handed down to us from our forefathers. Indeed they date back to the Maharil and even further back to Temple times. Chassidic nusach, when it’s done properly also adheres to the rules and modes as given to us by tradition. Yemenite nusach is based on the 24 makamot which happen to closely resemble the Ashkenazi prayer modes. It’s well known that much of Lewandowski’s music, while beautiful, is not nusach. Sc did not create new nusach for anything. He abandoned the traditional modes and substitued his folk melodies. That isn’t nusach, it’s just so much nonsense that people eagerly swallow up becuase it is feel good hand clapping nonsense as opposed to serious and dignified worship. That you ask “so what” to traditional nusach, tells me that you simply don’t understand the importance of it. But here’s a hint, the Maharil believed his daughter died becuase he once departed from the traditional nusach when he davened for the amud.
ok, rabbi of Berlin, you got me. I will reply to your outrageous post, and hope that I am not violating my priciples.
first: Yes, I did meet one of “reb” shloimeles chassidim. You cannot judge one and say that is how they all are, but since you asked,.. she was “toit meshuga”. In fact I spent a whole shabbos with her. Totally not in her right mind.
Next, “there is not a scintilla of evidence that other rabbonim were involved”…what did you do, take a survey?? “not a scintilla of evidence??” Additionally, as any BT will tell you, there is a journey, a process to becoming frum, and yes that will most often include other rabbonim. So if your rebbe really did rope people in, surely you are not suggesting he taught them everything alone?!? So that whole line of reasoning is just rediculous.
Of course one may sing his songs, why not? You can also sing any pop star’s song if you want, its not assur. I enjoy his songs too. But does that make him into tzaddik??
but this takes the cake: “.The oilam hayeshivas is so intoxicated with their own self-rigthousness that they cannot see anything good in other people. It is their way or the highway” we are not saying we dont see any good in him. But we are not saying he was a tzaddik. If we have an issue a person who flouts halacha befarhesia, we are self reighteous??
To say “they are jealous of his success” is beyond ludicrous. Why aren’t we jealous of the success of Amnon Yitzchak, who certainly brought yiddishkeit to at least as many jews that you claim shloime did?
He was the greatest ohev yisroel? I will agree that he loved jews. But we have a Torah and we have halacha and “love does not conquer all”. We have gedarim on that love as well. Reb Aryeh levine, , the tzaddik of jerusalem, to take as an example, loved jews. All jews. He went to visit people in jails. Reb Dovid Grossman loves Jews, all jews. They are MY role models of chessed and ahavas yisroel.
You want to know why people criticize and attack. I want to tell you that you were asking for it, big time. you have only yourself to blame for this.
rabbiofberlin, You are avoiding responding. For argumento assume there is a strong likelihood, or even better lets assume we KNOW (argumento) that by being mechallel shabbos a frei yid will become frum. CAN HE BE MECHALLEL SHABBOS? (y/n)
I believe this whole discussion about SC’s personal behavior is out of line. If one of the gedolei hador came out with a statement about it, that would be something to think about. But who are WE to judge a yid like that, who many have stated had more ahavas yisroel than almost anyone else of this dor? HKB”H will judge SC; no need for us to do so.
As far as his music is concerned, I think the case can be made that he paved the way for all the other guys out there today. If not for SC, MBD et al would not be what they are today.
Rabbi of berlin
It is fascinating to me that you keep asserting that you and I are saying similar things and in fact I am echoing things you say, but just don’t want to admit it. Somehow you are relating to my words, but I am not relating to yours. It is a mystery to me, and we’ll have to leave it at that because I will not be posting here any longer after today..
Just allow me to answer your comments: regarding the “chassidiste”, she was off her mind, and it wasn’t just a different derech. I am not one who is intolerable of other peoples derachim. Otherwise, I have never met any of his other tens of thousands of chassidim, so i have no way to judge. But i still maintain that any true BT goes through many teachers and rabbonim in their journey to yiddishkeit.
Finally, I keep asking you why you started this blog, what you were hoping to accomplish. You don’t want people to judge him, etc. No one was judging him. We are not sitting in our homes blasting him. We simply have nothing with him. (I talk for myself, of course)
I’m sure he was a very fine Jew. We do not HAVE to consider him a tzaddik, do we? If our gedolim would refer to him as a tzaddik, I would accept that although his actions were strange, I don’t really understand things as they appear to be. But why should I consider him a tzaddik otherwise, when his actions seem incomprehensible to me (as far as halacha goes).
The thing that’s going on here is that you want so badly that EVERYONE should recognise that your REBBE was a true tzaddik, just misunderstood. Dear rabbi of Berlin, I will need more than your say-so to go and worship his memory. Is that acceptable to you?
To cantoresq, I am showing my ignorance here in telling you that I do not know what the Ahava Rabbah nussach is. At least not by that name.You are,obviously, very knowledgeable in nussach and its components, a lot more than me, I fully admit. However, for you, to say that the nussach goes back to the Maharil and “even further back to Temple times”. How do you know that? There is about 1300 years between the maharil and the Churban habayis. Are you so sure that the nussach comes down from then? I am not sure at all, especially in view that the all Sefardim have very different nussach.(I am not a student of music history but to say that the Yemenite nussach resembles the Ashkenazi one defies my own listening, for one) I also think you are wrong in stating that shlomele z’l did not have a nussach. His kabbolos shaboos is clearly a nusssach.
And your last comment brought a smile to my face. Is cantoresq here the same cantoresq who has been excoriating all of those who believe the many “urban Jewish stories” ?(see other postings). “Off a muhl” -suddenly- you believe a story of six hudnred years ago! WOW !! You have joined the gullibel ones !
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The Ahava Rabbah is the Ukranian Doric minor. It’s the nussch for Shabbos Shachris. It’s also identical to the sephardic Makam Hijaz, to elucidate my statement about the similarities between Ashkenaz an Sephardic nussach. The two sound differenc due to pronounciation, and because, as I understadn it, Sephrdic nussach is more formally developed and more rarified. As to how we know that nussach goes abck to the Temple times, wel we have records of ancient Greek music from that era and we can see it’s similarity to trope. I’ve stated before that SC generally adhered to the klalei hanussach. It is his students who abandoned it ni favor of his folk melodies. Also, why would I question the Maharil’s beliefs about his daughter’s death. I don’t know that she actually died because he daperted from the nussach. But based on the passige in Hilchot Yom Kippur in the Sefer Haminhagim, I know he believed that to be true.
rabbiofberlin, at the same time you are researching if Chillul Shabbos is permissible in that case where FOR SURE someone will become so, please also research whether violating shomer negiah is permissible where someone POSSIBLY will become frum.
How many people do you know of in the past twenty ,that have had such a positive impact on klal yisrael like R’SC? I am a great admirer of R’SC. aside from his
stories and songs which are great,He has many speeches on different topics which
are unbelievable.
And lastly,I think if R’SC would be alive now ,the matzev of the teenagers would not be as bad(yes,they would have been different ,but they would be shomrei torah umitzvos)
rabbiofberlin, do you think it was really necessary for Shlomo to hug all those women and girls? You think he couldn’t be mekarev them without touching them? There are plenty of people who are very successful when it comes to kiruv, and they don’t need to do those things. Ask someone who Shlomo was mekarev, and see if they would have felt differently had he not hugged and kissed them.
How many people that Shlomo was mekarev thought it was ok to touch people of the opposite sex because Shlomo did it and said it was ok?
Today, all over the Jewish world, his kabbolos shaboss is sung by thousands and thousands
To the great chagrin of anyone how prefers proper traditional tefilah, and not some erstaz touchy feely kumsitz. YECH!!!!!!!!!!!
Who are we to judge him (or anyone for that matter)?
Why do we need to judge him? He did a lot of great things. I don’t know why he did the “odd” things he did, but I do plenty of my own sins to account for, why dhoul I meddle with some one elses. Appreciate him for all the great things he did. v’amech kulam tzadikim. I personally knew him, from a distance that is, and a lof of people he was mekarev,who are mainstream litvish people, who you would not think were once hippies. He has many zechusim.
In terms of mimkomcha, the story I heard, possibly from SC himself or from one of his students (It was a long time ago and the story is fuzzy so don’t take it as 100%) was when SC sang it for the Amshnav Rebbe zt”l (I think) the Rebbe said that this tune is nusach from the beis Hamikdash.
to all those that are saying, why are people judging him, the question should be asked directly to rabbiofberlin, as he is the one who started this conversation (rabbiofberlin – i am not attacking you!).
and i qoute:
“As I am a fervent and avid supporter of Shlomo’s derech and think of him as a Tsaddik, can you, out there, tell me what you think about his music, his Nussach hatefillah and, lastly, his derech in ahavas yisroel.”
he directly asked for this line of questioning. this is why his “derech” is being put into question, his “nusach” is being put to question (especially by cantoresq) and his music is being put into question.
this isnt a hard train of thought to follow. its very similar to the tests we took as elementary school children. its called reading comprehension. you read the original post, comprehend what it says, and then respond accordingly. i am in no way shape matter or form agreeing with or disagreeing with any comments made here, as i have contradicting feeling about reb shlomo, which i will keep to myself. but what i dont get is people asking why others are questions and critiquing reb shlomo, when the whole point of this conversatin is to do just that.
In terms of mimkomcha, the story I heard, possibly from SC himself or from one of his students (It was a long time ago and the story is fuzzy so don’t take it as 100%) was when SC sang it for the Amshnav Rebbe zt”l (I think) the Rebbe said that this tune is nusach from the beis Hamikdash.
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The Amshinover Rebbe may hve liked the piece. In fact I do too. It just has no place being sung during davening. As a folk tune, it’s great though. I can prove that such a meoldy was NEVER heard in the Bais Mikdash. I know this becuse there is absolutely no similarity to trope in the melody.
Dear RabbiofBerlin Shlita,
I apologize for not posting earlier when this thread was first started. I did not do so because I could not think of a way to adequately express the gadlus of Reb Shlomo. What was greater his music or his stories, his ahavas yisroel or his gadlus in learning? His was a holy and rare neshama sent down to comfort and rejuvenate our devastated nation in the generation after the holocaust. He was probably the greatest thinker of the generation. In a sentence or two he would answer a velt of kashyas. His music was min hashamayim. There is no way a human could have written these niggunim. His love for all briyos knew no bounds. The mayselach about him in the book “Holy Brother” are even better than his music. I had occasion to be with him and saw first hand how much he cared for someone he didn’t even know.
How many people would be learning today if not for him? They or their parents or their Rebbeim probably owe their cheshek for learning to him. Even those who later became “frummer” than him owe their existence in yeshiva to him. He brought back yidden all over the world. He was the godol hador in ahavas yisroel and loved every Jew to the very core of his being.
Nobody listened to his music for entertainment. It was the outpouring of his ahavas Hashem, ahavas hatorah and ahavas yisroel that was what infected all these people at his concerts. He poured his whole neshama into his songs. There was no gimmickry, just pure dveikus. He enjoyed being accompanied by people of any background and musical style.
May he continue to inspire and uplift people until biyas moshiach tzidkeinu bimheirah byameinu amen.
“I did not do so because I could not think of a way to adequately express the gadlus of Reb Shlomo”
i also could not think of a way to express his gadlus
This is one of the best posts. R’ Shlomo was one of a kind. His niggunim are sung in every Shul. They are so different from today’s “Jewish music.”
Not that Reb Shlomo needs my limud zchus, but to answer the question of chilul shabbos for kiruv, isn’t it a halacha in shulchan oruch that if non-Jews are trying to be maavir somebody al hadas, you are allowed to be mechalel shabbos, evenn though there is no physical danger, only spiritual danger? Correct me if I’m wrong, as don’t have access now to SH”O.
Secondly, regarding issue of negiah, doesn’t gemara say certain tannaim or amoraim used to dance with the kallah. The students asked aren’t you afraid of the yetzer hara? They answered, domeh alay k’kaki chivri (she is to me like a white dove, i.e., no yetzer hara, only a cheftza shel mitzva). The point is that negiah is only asur bderech chiba, and if they felt there was no chiba, then they were allowed. Perhaps Reb Shlomo felt it was lshem shamayim and not derech chiba, here, as well. Who are we to judge someone who did so much good, and brought so much light into the world?
he once told someone that he got smicha from rav Ahron Kotler (or was it rav hutner?) and he probably regretted giving it to him
Goody613, Shlomo was Reb Aharon’s biggest talmid. He once excitedly told Reb Moshe how he has a boy who is on the level with the very best in Europe. Reb Moshe was beaming ear to ear.
Just one mayseh told over by Joey Greenblatt in honor of Shavuos. Once the second night of Shavuos in the Lakewood Beis Medrash Shlomo was learning all night as he had the night before. At some point in walked Reb Aharon. He asked Shlomo why he was still there, as it is the second night. Shlomo answered that the gemara says Moshe Rabbeinu was mosif yom echad midaato (added one day voluntarily). It must be that one needs an extra day on Shavuos to catch every last drop.
“I will compile for you a list of situations when one can ignore mitzvos in the spirit of “eis laasos lashem, hefeiru torosecho”.”
I was taught not to violate one mitzvah in order to perform another mitzvah and the only exceptions were in cases of pikuach nefesh. I was also taught that to pursue kiruv by relaxing the halacha was not true kiruv because by relaxing the halacha in order to supposedly attract wayward Jews, you are not leading them to Torah but away from Torah.
Pashuteh Yid: I heard from a talmud of R’ Aharon zt”l that R’ Aharon cried over what happened to Carlebach after he left Lakewood.
The thing to learn from Carlebach is Ahavas Yisrael. Not Ahavah by hugging and kissing people of the opposite gender that you barely know, but a real ahavah – he really loved every Jew. however, he expressed it wrong.
As I’ve written before, R’ Mendel Kaplan zt”l said that Carlebach’s music will make you depressed if you listen to it. I heard this from a Rebbe in my yeshiva who was a talmud of R’ Mendel.
As for calling Carlebach a Rabbi, I guess you can do that, since he was somewhat like a Conservative Rabbi – some things he was able to keep, some things he wasn’t, so he justified transgressing things with some twisted logic.
Yes, he did a lot of good, and I’m sure it was taken into account when he had his din v’cheshbon. He also did a lot of wrong, which I’m sure was also taken into account.
While Shlomo Carlebach’s niggunim continue to inspire many Yidden, he displayed his weaknesses publically and more so privately and that, in my opinion, denies him any consideration from being included in the league of greatness in his lifetime.
Of course, he is a Tzadik now as are all niftorim, ultimately.
I wanted to conclude the Shvuos mayseh with Reb Aharon by saying that at that point Reb Aharon kissed Shlomo and said he was destined for greatness.
As far as depression goes, I doubt Reb Shlomo was depressed all the time, but the Holocaust weighed on him heavily, as did any tzara experienced by any Jew, anywhere. He literally died of a broken heart, as was said at his levaya. (I think six Israeli soldiers died that week.)
When it came time to prepare for kvura, the family had to take up a collection to pay for the levaya. The richest and most successful Jewish singer of all time died completely broke. He had given every last penny he had to the less fortunate, as he did his entire life. According to Rabbi Abraham Twerski, that was the biggest shevach of all, and summed up his whole life.
Just wanted to clarify that my limud zchus only applies if the contact was nothing more than a friendly or polite hug with no derech chiba involved. If there was anything more, or if it was in any way unwelcome, then what I wrote would obviously not apply.
Well, he sure was very strong in his Ahavas Yisroelios.
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