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*tell them
(sorry, proofread it a little late!)
if u have to pay someone off for a shidduch then trust me you’re going to have a very difficult marriage
@snowbunny613 so why not be the shadchan 🙂
maybe through here we do but im not a “full-time” learning guy(which i believe she is looking for) and hope to be working primarily and learning iy”h in the evenings/when i have time..
hockey_fan : Why do you say that? i simply don’t agree
GAC – I wanted to share with you a thought I had about the issue of pictures and “stunning girls”. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It could be that in America there is a certain standard to being stunning, but I don’t know that every guy out there is looking for a “stunning” girl, but at least a girl who is attractive to him. I have a few woman friends where I live and I saw their husbands and I thought, “Eeewwww, she’s such a pretty girl, how could she marry such a nerdy looking guy?” I came to realize that a guy I might find attractive is not necessary the same as what my friend would find attractive and not only that, they might have decided that he was OK on first glance and then got to know him and really came to appreciate who he was, so the fact that he wasn’t tall, dark and handsome didn’t seem so important. I think a guy deserves to not invest excessive time and $ to go out with a girl who he would just say no to when she first comes in the room simply because she is totally NOT attractive to him, so why can’t he see that first and not say OK to a shidduch that has 0 potential. If he’s reasonable, then if she’s at least somewhat attractive to him (not stunningly beautiful) hopefully he’ll give a first date a chance. If he sets too high of a standard, then he’ll say no to every picture he sees and then the shadchanim will get the idea that he’s being too picky and act accordingly. I hope what I said makes sense. I do understand your concern about giving in your picture, but I don’t think it’s necessarily selling yourself short.
Hashem should send you your zivug b’korov.
Nechomah: I’m not sure that your analogy is correct, as men and women are not looking for physical beauty in the same way. Men and women are different in this regard.
@shaggersyeshiva.. so then plz explain what u are trying to say
Hockey_fan: Get a clue said that she wants someone who will learn and then work. I understand that there are differences between what the two of you want, however, I personally feel that if you two weren’t so interested in each other, you two would not have invested so much time commenting about the whole putting a picture on your shidduch resume thing. I would love to be a shadchanis the only thing is that I am in E”Y now and you two seem to by in ny… what are you planning on doing for a parnossah?
something in the computer industry ( IT, network support.. etc)
Getaclue: What are you doing for a parnossah?
Working in the high tech industry is a viable parnossah and if you end up moving to E”Y, you can find plenty of jobs here.
going to israel isnt one of those things i look to do unless i have a job prior to moving there
ok, i am not trying to promote aliyah here…
i nvr said you were .. but i do agree with abt there being more tech jobs in israel
I’m 22, and I would suggest that the best possible thing you can do is to not be too preoccupied. Focus now on your career, growing b’ruchnius, helping your parents, doing chesed, and when you feel ready to enter the commitment of marriage and caring for another person and children, bli ayin hara, than focus on finding your zivug. My recommendation would be also to not shy away from sites like Saw You at Sinai and Frumster/JWed, and to also not to be closed from gerim or baalei teshuva- they are often greatest in religious commitment (see Rabbenu Avraham’s shita in Tosfos, Yevamos 47b, on R’ Chelbo’s sapachas comment).
who are u talking to ??
@getaclue.. I nvr said a picture was required just could increase your chances because of the way guys are these days.. I guess you will find your husband being one that doesn’t take looks into his concern but the power to u
@gac .. i was actually referring to rebdoniel .. but sometimes posts take a while to actually post
ok, fine.
@snowbunny3318.. maybe u could correct if im wrong. but i dont see that i was forcing my own opinion at all.. just stating the facts of todays generation
Hockey_Fan, you were not forcing your opinion at all, you just wanted to help her.
hi everyone i have a problem PLEASE HELP ME!
I really like the guy I am going out with. In fact, we are getting quite serious. But he was engaged to my best friend and he broke it off, three weeks into their engagement. she was devasted. as I grow closer to this guy, my friend has become increasingly distant. I am worried this will kill her. she is my best friend but I really think this could be the guy for me!!! what should i do???
You broke the girl code. Girls don’t go out with their friend’s exes, unless with express prior permission.
That’s not just girl code, that’s guy code, too. You really should have seen this coming. It’s too late now. You’re going to have to choose one or the other, or try to get your friend to be okay with it, but that sounds unlikely from how you described it. Seems like you are really stuck. Good luck!
i would ask your LOR if i were you
I can’t offer advice but I just wanted to tell you that I feel your difficulty and hope it gets resolved soon. Did you ask your friend why the engagement broke?
gemgirl -i think you should ask a rav what to do. and ask the girl why the guy broke the engagement.?
firstly, let me make something clear- believe it or not i didn’t realize it was him until our first date because he has a pretty common name and they broke their engagement over a year ago so none of his references mentioned it. (not sure why). but once we went on that first date we just clicked right away, and i cudnt help it, we went out again. the second date became a third.. then a fourth…. after like the fifth date i sat down with my friend and we spoke about it and she said we was fine with me going out with him, bcz it obviously wasn’t meant to be for her. but now i could tell she feels hurt. probably the reality of the situation is sinking in. But doesn’t the fact that she gave me permission count for something?
Also the reason that he broke the engagement was, in my opinion, mainly her fault. she did not disclose some crucial health information until after the engagement and he was not prepared for it.
There IS an unspoken code that you never go out with your friend’s ex. BUT – you say she said it was ok with her, though clearly she does feel hurt (which is to be expected, as he broke an engagement to her). The only thing that will help her is for her to be involved with the RIGHT zivug for herself. Until then, it will probably continue to hurt her. I am sorry for your situation, because this clearly is shterring the complete happiness you deserve to feel in finding the right guy for you. But if you look at it from her standpoint, it is painful for her to watch you with the guy who got away. This is not an easy situation, and will require great sensitivity on your part, as well as that of the fellow you are dating.
The bro code, I think it’s called.
Bros before women. (or something like that)
Girls before churls.
I probably wouldn’t know if it was my friends’ ex. Who shares names when talking about shidduchim?
Maybe my friends are special, but they wouldn’t share names.
***They were engaged, it is common once someone gets engaged to say the name.
It is complete baloney that a guy or girl cannot or should not go out with a friend’s former date or even former engaged (now broken) shidduch. You can and should go out with him (or her) without hesitation and should get engaged if appropriate.
It should be with much mazal.
Be real…
Thank you for explaining, Rabbi/Mr Moderator!
I have an interesting story for those of us in shidduchim… My friend studied in MTJ (Rabbi Feinstein’s yeshiva).
Once, my friend attended a wedding with R’ Dovid Feinstein and he noticed that there were two lines of people waiting to get brachas from the Rav. One was of boys and the other was of girls, and both were asking for brachas in shidduchim. R’ Feinstein turned to him and said something along the lines of, ‘I don’t understand why they are all coming to me for a bracha. There is a line of boys and a line of girls… Why don’t they just socialize and get to know each other?’
His point seemed to be that today, people are so concerned with the frum velt’s formalities in shidduchim that they fail to realize that it’s perfectly permissible to circumvent the superficial establishment and do it in a more “natural” way. I am put off by people who think that it’s somehow a lack of tzniyus for a boy to approach a girl he is interested in getting to know to ask her out on a date. If it’s good enough for R’ Feinstein, it’s good enough for me. I’m not saying shadchanim aren’t worthwhile. It’s nice to not have to reject someone to their face, but if you need to get married you don’t necessarily have to go through all the bureaucratic channels.
Curiosity
The shidduch system is supposed to vet prospective marriage partners so you dont waste endless hours dating people who are not for you. I can go chat up every girl I meet at a chasuna and still end up single and so much more frustrated and confused and having spoken to so many more girls than necessary. The shidduch system is supposed to match you up with someone compatible and looking for the same thing. Its much harder to find that when you just start talking to random girls/guys.
WIY, I don’t disagree with anything you said. However, you can still do the research on your own, or just keep your eyes open and if you see someone at a wedding that piques your interest, ask about her and approach her yourself. You don’t HAVE TO go through shadchanim, and there’s nothing wrong with approaching a girl, that’s what R’ Feinstein was saying. I was just decrying the perception that doing so is in some way a lack of tzniyus.
Curiosity, in theory, your idea sounds great, but it’s not for everyone. Since both genders don’t normally mix in the Jewish world, many guys wouldn’t know how to chat up a girl even if they had the opportunity. And I say this even though I did not meet my husband through a shadchan and I’m really grateful that I was open to the idea since no shadchan would’ve ever introduced us. So I’d probably still be single if I was waiting for some shadchan to introduce me to my bashert.
That’s true, but close to my point. Rav Feinstein obviously does not condone the fact that people in shidduchim refuse to mingle for the sake of shidduchim. It sounds like he holds it is proper hishtadlus to go out of your way and mingle with a member of the opposite gender for the sake of finding your zivug. I wouldn’t pasken from a story you heard third hand over the internet, but people should definitely ask their LORs.
I also personally heard from a close talmid of Rav H. Leibowitz ZTZ”L that one time a certain Rav said girls should be “understanding” when dating yeshivah guys because they have no experience talking to girls due to spending the large chunk of their lives in front of a gemara in yeshiva. R’ Leibowitz was adamently against this statement and said a guy who claims this excuse about himself is lacking in his mussar and middos. If you learned mussar properly in yeshiva you should have no trouble talking to a girl like a mentch.
I also personally heard from a close talmid of Rav H. Leibowitz ZTZ”L that one time a certain Rav said girls should be “understanding” when dating yeshivah guys because they have no experience talking to girls due to spending the large chunk of their lives in front of a gemara in yeshiva. R’ Leibowitz was adamently against this statement and said a guy who claims this excuse about himself is lacking in his mussar and middos. If you learned mussar properly in yeshiva you should have no trouble talking to a girl like a mentch.
????? to the rosh yeshiva, this sounds like a game of telephone to me. The rav said, someone told the talmid, the talmid asked the rosh yeshiva…
The problem referred to presumably was that yeshiva guys don’t know how to talk to girls in ways which build a romantic relationship, and has nothing to do with being nice or polite or a mensch.
I’m guessing this was told over to Rav Leibowitz as being a problem of girls having to understand that guys will not be nice to them. And he responded the way he did. But the rav was certainly talking about what I am referring to.
I don’t buy into the idea that boys not having experience talking to girls, or knowing how to build a relationship, is part of the problem. Girls certainly don’t need experience to figure out how to get male attention – it’s pretty instinctive.
For every guy who lacks social skills, there’s a girl who also lacks social skills.
torah613613torah
Guys are visual so yes if a girl dresses up…we will notice. Girls work differently or so I have been told 🙂 so what will make a girl notice a guy?
I don’t buy into the idea that boys not having experience talking to girls, or knowing how to build a relationship, is part of the problem. Girls certainly don’t need experience to figure out how to get male attention – it’s pretty instinctive.
It is instinctive, but we’ve trained ourselves to not do it. And it is an issue.
One prominent (female) family therapist told me that it is a very common issue that yeshivish girls don’t know to interact with guys in a romantic way. And the same with guys. Or perhaps more accurately, that they think it is inappropriate to, and they hold themselves back and a bit aloof.
Is that a problem? Depends what you think. If you think it is important to have romantic feelings about one another before you get engaged, then it is. If you don’t think so, then it is not a problem.
@ WIY
You said guys are visual and so if they see a girl they will make assumptions from what she looks like. Girls, I guess, are visual too but personality is a big thing. Also, girls can really notice if a guy is rude or haughty by how he acts with his friends. A girl can notice a guy just from seeing him, but not necessarily notice notice. Makes sense?
Just as a correction, I checked with my source-it was r’ Reuven Feinstein, not R’ Dovid Feinstein who said this.
popa_bar_abba
What do you mean when you say romantic feelings…?
well its time to post that im off the market.. proposed on friday
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