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“Pluses are:
Top notch middos
Bas talmid chochom
Good brothers “
helpful- i find it hurtful that it matters what a girl’s brother and father are like rather than what the girl herself wants for her family. I happen to have great brothers who are talmidei chochomim. However, our father is a baal teshuva and wished he could learn gemara and be a talmud chochom, but it was very difficult for him. He worked and I dont think this is a chisaron for me, a girl who wants to marry a tulmud chochom and raise bnei torah. Why is yichus so important? Don’t we all know that people can be very diffenrent than their families and parents?
“Why is yichus so important?”
It really isn’t. Had it been, we would never have seen a Rabbi Akiva (was his father a non-Jew or a ger), or any of the Avos and Emahos, whose yichus was from Ovdei Avodah Zarah some of whom were mamesh reshaim.
Re yichus, that is the lesson of lech lcha which we just read on shabbos – Avraham Avinu goes out from his father’s house and become the first to proclaim HaShem “Master” of the universe and spread this knowledge across the world despite the fact that his father was a maker of idols. As the Ropshitzer brings in his Zera Kodesh, this shows us that yichus does not diminish our ability to be the highest ovdei HaShem (see also Divrei Hayamim II 17:6).
The Chazon Ish writes that the true “Bas Talmid Chacham” of our age is a Bais Yakov graduate. Though there is maaleh to girl who has regulated her life according to Yeshiva sedarim since she was two.
i find it hurtful that it matters what a girl’s brother and father are like
Chazal tell us to look at a girls brothers (as her children may turn out like them) and Chazal also say to marry a bas talmid chochom.
i think this is a funny question to ask. i mean, it’s not funny, but i don’t think that there will be a definite answer. every boy is going to look for something else, obviously.
also, when ppl say top top middos….. of course that’s beautiful, but we have to make sure that we are just as selfless, generous, sweet, caring, happy, always doing chessed and giving tzedakah……. how many of us really are tops in all this? we all have flaws. to ask for someone with fine middos, someone who is a fine person… is ok. but not for someone who is tops. that just doesn’t make sense. life is all about growing. we can’t be perfect in something at such a young age, if ever. this is not to discourage ppl. i’m just saying we are not perfect. we can all grow and improve ourselves.
hashemlovesme: true re middos, but when someone says “top middos” it could be they mean someone who is recognizes the importance of middos and is dedicated toward tikun hamiddos (not scared to confront his/her own flaws and correct them)
that makes more sense. but that’s still not tops in middos. that’s someone growth oriented and looking to better themselves. they’re not TOPS yet, even if they are a fine person.
About looking for a girl with good brothers:
I think that the primary reason for this was to judge the approximate intelligence of the genetic material a boy is choosing for his children. Until not too long ago women had little to no schooling, and it was difficult to tell how smart they were. Therefore, the only intelligence gauge was to see how well her brothers learn.
mw13:
Chazal say the reason to consider a girls brothers before marrying her, is because her children (middos, etc.) will be like her brothers.
MIddos, Yichus and good brother’s, are all very important. Personally I prefer a girl who is on the way up. Meaning, a girl who either comes from a prestigious background and her jewishness is stable or on the way up, or a girl from not so prestigious background who is more Frum.
who is rebdaniel? how old are you? and how do i get ur contact info
Ben Torah
“Chazal say the reason to consider a girls brothers before marrying her, is because her children (middos, etc.) will be like her brothers.”
What if a girl has a few brothers some great some not so great then what?
It sounds like if a girl does not have an easy-going and chilled personality, she is doomed and no one is going to want to marry her. If that is the case, I feel very bad for myself! I am not the very chilled type….it does not come naturally to me and although it is something that I work very hard on I have not completely changed as that is nearly impossible.
Also, in regard to the discussion about Yichus- I think we see the exact opposite from the Avos. Although they did marry the children on ovdai avodah zora, Yitzchok was careful when sending Eliezer to find a wife that she NOT be from the “low” end of society and she should be from any nation except Cenani….(I have no idea how to spell this….sorry)
So please explain what you mean when you say that guys out there only want chilled girls. If I work on my middos and try my best to be easy going does that mean it’s still not enough? And no I am not pretty or rich so for sure no one is going to want me????
Coke
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder just because you may not think you are attractive doesn’t mean you aren’t and there will be plenty of guys out there who will find you attractive. If you aren’t a natural beauty you can still look really good if you know how to apply cosmetics properly.
Anyways as for being rich, that’s out of your hands but if you have a good degree behind you that can mean there’s earning potential.
Now for being chilled, that is something you can work on. I’m telling you now, we guys are not perfect and it drives us crazy to have someone on our heads nagging us and pointing out our flaws. Most guys also can’t stand girls who are moody or kvetchy or overly emotional and cry over everything.
You don’t have to feel chilled inside, just act chilled and make your husband think you are chilled, and keep up the act until it becomes you.
coke
Deep breath, and release.
Boys say they want a chilled girl with a good personality.
*checking my ego aside for a minute* I am one of the most easy going people I know (maybe a little to easy going) and I am still single.
“Easy going chilled personality” Read: looks killer body.
Take it from someone who is far from rich, killer looks, or yichus (unless yichus atzmi counts).
Putting aside the top 10% of the population, (who are truly rich, and /or stunning) the vast majority of us are as plain as a lb of rye bread, yet satistics show, getting married (and happily, I might add) is pretty much a sure thing.
At engagement time, both of us were page 47 news. Now, 2 decades+ later, we’re prize winners.
Bottom line: don’t despair! Just be yourself, and be prepared to take someone who (like you) has 85% of “what it takes” (everyone has a diff yardstick, so I won’t specify what “it” is) and the remaining 15% is what you work on building.
Won’t comment on yichus, because its too subjective
I have several acquaintences, who if you asked them this question (what are you looking for in a girl)would answer “a pulse”. If you know them, and are suggesting a shidduch, they trust you are not setting them up with an avaryon, an axe murderer or a phsyco. Ironing out “compatability” and small hashkafic differences is up to the couple, not the shadchan (it is assumed the shadchan would not suggest a shidduch when large hashkafic differences exist). They basicly say, set me up and I will meet the girl and decide if she is good for me, not you. I suspect a lot of people (male and female) would like the system to work that way, but dont want to be the ones marching to a different drummer.
Sacrilege
Please. Looks and a killer body are important to many guys but if the girl has an unpleasant nature it ain’t going nowhere. A bad personality can make the prettiest girl look hideous.
I don’t know what you look like and for all I know you have the looks body and chilledness. Hashem has a plan for you. I don’t know why you are still single but you know you aren’t alone. There are 100’s of great girls in your boat. All I can tell you is, it can only help to come closer to Hashem. Your recent changes Movies tv music…will definitely make a Roishum in shomayim. Keep growing keep working on yourself.
For the record most guys care that the girl has a healthy body. But don’t excuse being fat with guys are shallow and I’m ok. If you are fat YOU have a problem with food. You need to work on your self control and it can likely be a sign that there are other areas of your life being out of control.
Every fat girl I (I mean 20 pounds + overweight) ever dated or that I know of or am related to has issues. Sorry if its not politically correct.
OK so I’m an old man. When I met my wife in August 1967 (told you i’m old) my criteria was exactly what the Bobover Rebbe ztzl said, middos. But along with that I had must have brains. So I married her with her fantastic middos and brilliance and what do I have 43 years later? 6 brilliant kids with middos tovos. With bunches of grandkids the same. Thank you so much Hashem for giving me what I was looking for.
WIY- thanks for the encouragement! As far as looks go, I am definitely not ugly but I am not one of those girls who a guy would pass and say wow she is stunning! But who cares I just need my husband to think I am pretty and yes with the right makeup I do manage to look “good” every time I leave my house….
As far as money is concerned, I am not from a wealthy family but my parents are planning on supporting and they are able to baruch hashem!
As far as being chilled, I do try my best and I succeed many times but not to the extent that I consider myself a chilled person. If you would know how many times I held my tongue and don’t say things to my siblings because I know that my kids and husband don’t want someone to always tell them to pick up the toys, go daven shachris, clean up his bed….etc.
WIY
Where did that fat rant come from?
But don’t excuse being fat with guys are shallow and I’m ok. If you are fat YOU have a problem with food. You need to work on your self control and it can likely be a sign that there are other areas of your life being out of control.
Every fat girl I (I mean 20 pounds + overweight) ever dated or that I know of or am related to has issues. Sorry if its not politically correct.
That is shallow. If you weren’t so shallow, you would have an equal problem with a girl being 20 pounds underweight, if your concern were health as you claim it is.
August 1967 !
Whoa. That literaly makes you old enought to be my father. Now I regret the way I wrote to you on a previous post.
Sorry, the screen is sometimes deceiving. Moichel?
Sacrilege
When I said you I wasnt talking to you personally. But if you are heavy dont expect guys (or their mothers and sisters) to look away from that.
so right
I said normal weight. I want a girl who is in the normal percentile. If her ribs are visible without sucking in her stomach shes too skinny. I want someone normal weight. I dont find the skinny like a twig fragile looking girls (who try to look like todays models) attractive. Im actually afraid one day a strong wind will blow her away if I marry one of those. Lol.
“Chazal also say to marry a bas talmid chochom.”
Guys, keep this in mind the next time you show up and they are giving you a farher. You have the same obligation, and right, to give him a farher as well.
apushatayid
Thanks for the advice. I dont think farhering really goes on anymore. But whoever fahrhers me will live to regret it because I will turn the tables on him.
I dont think farhering really goes on anymore.
Huh? Fahering very much goes on. Don’t know what circles you’re drifting in, but girls fathers very much faher the boys before they can go out with their daughter.
About a farher….
Would you be mad and walk out or would you step up to the challenge? I heard a story where a very chasheveh yid traveled from town to town trying to find a shidduch for his daughter… He would ask a complex question with the goal of if “you answer the question you get to marry his daughter.”… Well after his travels no one was able to answer the question… As he left the last yeshiva a bachor ran after him and asked so what was the answer to the question… This chasheveh yid said this guy should marry his daughter…..So sometimes its not the question or farher that matters… Rather your reaction to the farher….
just a thought….
Health is an important topic to be aware of in regard to a shidduch…However, the definition of being healthy is very much misunderstood (I hope) a skeleton is NOT healthy for many medical reasons… Weak bones in relationship to falls can lead to serious injury…. could lead to heart problems… Basically, an average healthy person may eat, exercise, and be healthy….
myfriend
I dont know anyone who was fahrhered. Unless you call a Fahrher “Oh what Meshechta are you learning?” “Oh what daf?” “Oh the sugyah of such and such?” Gishmacke inyan. End of fahrher. Most fathers dont even know enough to Fahrher lets be honest, if the bachur is holding in the sugya and the father most likely is not he will just make the girls father look like a doofus. So why bother fahrhering?
WIY:
Real farhers. The girls father will test the bochor on a random Gemorah inside. The bochor better know his stuff well.
Obviously, it’s the almighty dollar. As someone who has married off several sons, I can tell you that the ‘big time’ shadchanim never mentioned a girl from a simple home. They are very quick into name dropping
my father always asks if a goilem can be part of a minyan….darn i hope i didnt just reveal my identity lol :))
Myfriend
That’s far from the typical. Maybe only for the long term learners.
It is a misconception that guys are obsessed with stunning girls. While every male is mortal, and it’s definetly a plus, the hakpada that guys have is “normal” “nice” even “pretty” – which means that the vast majority of girls who know how to put themselves together are fine. Occasionally you have a guy who insist on a supermodel, but that is genuinely rare. Overweight says to a guy “she’s letting herself go” – it’s the same in marriage. Men want their wives to care; not be perfect.
This is emes l’amito. I recently had the son of a friend get married. We had them over for shabbos, and he is a yeshivish tom cruise, and we had always laughed and figured he would end up with the same.
I had the zechus of meeting an intelligent, fine, tzanau bas yisrael – a perfectly normal girl, but one that you wouldn’t expect to find with tom cruise ( am I behind on the times? does he have grandkids by now?). Because – him, like most guys, is scared of overweight, and is looking for a normal – read, 75% of female population – girl, who knows how to take care of herself. Other then that? It was about middos, haskafafah and compatibility (she wasn’t wealthy, nor is her father a rosh yeshiva). He’s just a good boy, who was looking for good girl. Shoen. That’s really, the honest truth, and I’ve dabbled in shidduchim for a while, and know my customers.
Of course, this is all independent of fair and true etc. etc.. – it just is. The only thing that is a deal breaker to most guys is overweight. This illusion that boys demand a size two is false. “I don’t need Ms. America, just spare me Mius America”
and 1967 is takeh a long time ago. that was before tom cruise. I think…even before before tom cruise. Takeh.
I dont know how this works with posting but i need to find out who rebdoniel is…
Moq
Thank you for your eloquence. I dont think theres much if anything id add to that.
p.s. Are you a male a female?
coke:
Whoa, chill out. Nobody said not so chilled out girls are “doomed”. Don’t worry there are plenty of guys looking for more serious girls, too.
NOTG:
“i need to find out who rebdoniel is”
I’m not entirely sire that that’s possible… although I think that the Mods have worked out email exchanges before. Mods? Want to tell NOTG if that might be possible in this case?
It might be hard to sympathize, but I’m underweight and have had to deal with other things in shidduchim – being suspected of having an eating disorder for example. Despite the fact that anyone who knows anything about eating disorders would know right away that I am as healthy as can possibly be! (I have a healthy body image and do my best to gain weight but it’s genetic, my aunt was the same way and only normalized once she had kids, she’s still slim.)
It’s as hard for me to gain as it is for many people to lose. And it requires me to pay attention to my diet – I have a poor appetite and fast metabolism, and have to make sure that whatever I eat is healthy and high calorie in order to not be malnourished. Under stress I have to be especially careful not to neglect myself.
I just want you to know that not only overweight people have problems, being underweight is just as hard, and I feel like whenever I try to explain it, people invalidate the struggle, like it doesn’t matter because they’ve never dealt with it. Being underweight is not like being too smart – it’s really a dangerous condition and something that is hard to live with! And it hasn’t been an asset in shidduchim for me.
OK thanks for letting me say my piece. Please don’t attack me for this even if you can’t relate.
Every boy and every girl is unique. Everyone puts different level of importance on everything. Generalizations are silly.
Pushte – that’s true, until you’re a shadchan. The same patterns come up over and over again. There are rules and exceptions. But there are rules. I know who’s going to get a line around the block and who is going to wait for months for the phone to ring. Just the way it is.
Pascha – you’re eating disorders should be as much of a concern as overweight, but frankly, it’s less obvious and more attractive, so guys are more ready to fool themselves,even though one out of three thing girls are anorexic etc. . A smart guy will be wary of both ( as will a smart girl, in boys. You plan on keeping that husband till 120? Smoking and forty pounds overweight doesn’t make good odds).
As far you as you are concerned, you sound like one of those girls most females love to hate.
But since I’m not female, I will leave that to an available mean member of your gender 🙂
WIY – Yeah, I’m a guy. I’ve been in trenches, both before and after marriage, and late night dorm room conversations. Did my time. And trying to help others get parole. And I’ve had blunt please-let-me-dump-this-girl conversations too. Me, pushy?
YOUCHS! Bad typo – Pascha – you’re —>RIGHT<–, COMMA! eating disorders should be as much of a concern as overweight…
Moq
You’re a professional Shadchan? Or do you just dabble?
Merely dabble. But me & Mrs. Moq usually have something cooking. Though not now. He dumped her after 3 dates. And for a dumb reason. No sechel! Nu, she was too good for him anyway.
WIY:i have found that women “kvetch,whine,nag cry”etc.for any of these reasons.
1.the husband literally ignores her when she talks.
2.the husband grunts a response, then promptly “forgets”whatever he was supposed to do.
3.he carelessly does whatever it is all wrong.example–gets the specific item asked not to get,decides to vacuum at midnite and wakes up the 4 kids sleeping in that room.when questioned,retorts;”you are never satisfied!no more help from me!’
GET THE PICTURE?
Guys who treat their wives with the courtesy they deserve WILL NEVER END UP LISTENING TO GRATING NAGGING.
Eclicpse
Oder yu oder nein. There is a tendency by a significant # of women to be “hard to please” or “moody.” This leads to unnecessary broodiness and nagging. Personally I think its a female tendency to project their inner problems or feelings onto others or specifically those around them. Like if she is upset about something, or just feels down about herself she will lash out at her husband even though he is innocent…
Additionally there are women who just have unrealistic expectations. If your husband comes home wiped at the end of a day, don’t bore him to death with stupidities, yes he loves you but he dealt with stupid annoying people all day, if you act annoying its hard not to equate you with the people he has to deal with all day and emotionally shut down.
Another point, many women don’t realize that men need love and affection, they think its only a womans need. Maybe men are supposed to be tough and rugged but that’s not the case these days and if you don’t give your man what he needs emotionally as well as physically he can’t and won’t be a happy camper. You don’t get the male psyche. You put a man down or insult his ego he’s not going to forgive you very quickly because we care about our egos and our “image” very much.
Married men, can I have some testimony to the validity of my comments?
wiy
i think (other than the nagging part, men generally dont nag)you have described a common male picture not female.
men are more likely to be moody and brooding and grumpy and lash out at their wives when they are upset about something else.
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