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instead of constantly complaining about the shidduch crisis, why don’t we do something about it? i think we should get tips from boys/girls about what they liked/disliked about certain situations on dates.
I disliked the cost.
I disliked places that were too busy or noisy. Find out about hotels b4 u take the girl there. We went to a very nice hotel but it was so busy there was barely any place to sit. We could barely hear eachother speak….
Maybe the solution is to stop going by “the rules.” WHY is it a good idea to take a girl to a hotel lounge? I have never been able to understand that concept. With all the pritzus that happens at treif hotels,and especially in the bar/lounge, why would anyone want a couple on a date to go there? Why not a trip to the zoo or aquarium, a museum (NICE QUIET place), in the warmer weather, the park (take a picnic basket), let them sue their imagination a little bit, for a change, if going out to dinner even for pizza, is not an option for some reason.
There is a reason we have a crisis today, and that is simply because the present system stinks. The checking out ad nauseum, the rule that the boy’s side has to accept the shidduch first, then the girl, the rules about what is considered classy or unclassy (plastic on the tablecloths, or just the tablecloth itself on the table, stacking versus not stacking the dishes as they are removed fromt he table, shoes with laces or no laces).
How can people make shidduchim when they are so caught up in the shtuss I just mentione? You think a boy comes from a better home because his mother can afford to have a housekeeper wash and iron her linen tablecloth, and someone else wants to keep that tablecloth clean and neat for several uses? Is a girl a better prospect for being a good wife and mother because she will come back to the table repeatedly to take the dishes off, rather than making one or two trips and stacking everything? What happened to menschlechkeit, good middos, a sense of humor, compassion for others, empathy, seichel (not just learning)? We are so caught up in the extremely unimportant minutiae, that we no longer see the forest for the trees.
This crisis is a making of our parental generation. More people would be able to meet their zivugim, if they could do so in a NON-shidduch way, the way many of us did. Ther should be places where young people may congregate and meet each other in a natural way. But wait – they have been taught that this is not tzniusdig. THAT is the first thing they have to unlearn. There is nothing untzniusdig about boys and girls learning how to converse with each other in group setting, especially if those group setting are wholesome environments (NOT A SHIUR in this case). We have created a generation of people who are afraid to talk to each other, and who think even looking at each other is wrong. The crisis is that our kids do not know how to be normal young men and women anymore.
There was a very interesting article in the Jewish Press this past week, written by a young man who started a group to help people find their zivugim in a “less maddening” way. His article was written as a satire, but it underscored some very interesting ideas that most kids today do not hold fopr themselves. The article pertains to a job interview, and I suggest you all read it, if you haven’t already. The analogy is very obvious, and I agree with the author. I don’t always agree with everything he writes, but this particular inyan IMO is very true.
1. Make sure all parties have a Rov or mentor who they are in contact with vis-a-vis the checking and dating process
2. Know the difference between ???? and ??? (Hashkafos are ????, Tablecloths and what soup is served friday night is a ???.
3. Let it be known you are listening to suggestions, but keep quiet about your dating, ESPECIALLY TO OTHER BOCHURIM OR SINGLE GIRLS. Only speak with family and your Rov/Mentor about the dates.
4. Be Aware, and be a Mentch. Often dates turn sour because one party lacks a certain level of awareness towards the other person. Try to read their features, are they cold, tired, thirsty (You can ask if you have a doubt!)
5. If it doesn’t work out, you can suggest it to a friend if you think it might be Shayach.
6. You need not be 100% certain an idea will work in order to reht a shidduch
7. When you have an answer, give it. Nothing is worse than waiting for the other party to give an answer.
8. Be Honest with the Shaddchan, if you have an aversion to Hotel Lobbies, tell the shaddchan to let the other side know.
9. Try not to go out 2 days in a row. Also, if possible, try to avoid going back to the same place. Easier to differentiate what happened on what date when things are in different locations.
10. Be yourself. And always to a cheshbon after each date asking yourself “How do I act in the presence of this person?” am I honest, do they bring out my good qualities, or those middos I need to improve? You get a much clearer picture when you analyze yourself. Only afterwords should you analyze the other party.
That is just some quick things off the top of my head.
Hatzlacha
Tznius is priority # 1.
Oomis,
You hit the nail on the head.
I was going to comment on this, but there’s nothing I can add to what you said.
find out if the girl cares if she sees people she knows!! that is the only reason i like lobby’s bec the only other people u will see will be people on dates! i hate going out to eat and seeing the whole world there(that means dont try to take a girl out around the corner from her house and then be upset when she asks if they could go somewhere else-actually 1 time the boy wanted to go out for pizza two blocks away from me in the middle of the day and he was devastated that i asked if we could go someplace else-then i found out that he didnt care he just had that place in his gps
oomis and jaymatt,really said well both of you.
Thanks, good to know I am of some help.
I am a shaddchan (small time) and I also give hadracha (when asked). If you have any questions I’d be happy to answer. But I think those “basics” were a good start.
Oomis, you refer to the shtuss of the boy having to say yes first. Why is this a shtuss? Let the girl do the rejecting, not the boy, it helps maintain the girl’s dignity.
What’s happening now is that boys have say, 100 names. The girls ARE being given the boys’ names first, check them out, and this way the boys are able to narrow the list down to the girls who already said yes. I don’t like it, and much prefer that the boys be given our info (not up to our boys yet) first.
The boy should go before the girl. AND THE GIRL SHOULD HAVE NO IDEA THE BOY IS LOOKING INTO HER!! This way, the girl should only know when a boy says yes, and it is only the boys who need to deal with rejection (since the girl will only have the opportunity to decide yes or no after the boy says yes).
The problem is that people spill the beans (see previous thread titled “privacy” for further discussion). But ideally, the way it should work is that a girl will not know when a boy has said no.
coke, if EVERYONE is going to the same hotel lobby (the Marriott??) to avoid running into people whom they know, is it not logical that they will run into LOTS of people whom they know?
The shtuss that I referred to Tzippi, is that a boy’s mother or father are told about a girl that someone has in mind, but until the boy says yes, the shadchan will NOT tell the girl’s family ANYTHING about the boy, not even his name? Why shouldn’t the girl have the opportunity to make an inquiry and save some time? Too much time is wasted in these games being played. Whoever knows the parties involved should give both side info and let either side say yes or no at teh same time.
oomis-i dont mind bumping into other people who are on dates…..its the other people who i care bec there the ones that the second they see me will start texting and calling e/o -if i see people who are on dates its fine bec they are in the same matzav as me
JayMatt & tzipp:
Ich farshtay nisht. Why is it more important that the girl never hear a “no”, then vice versa?
Because as a general klal, women are more emotional then men. Just seems like a menchlach way to behave.
Oomis: I used to think about the hotel thing too like u do but I realized its so much better to go to a hotel than a zoo or resteraunt bc if u don’t like or enjoy the guy/girl and see nothings doing with that person u can just make it a quick date! (Even though I’ve never been out yet lol)
tzippi, my apologies on the typo regarding your screen name.
“oomis-i dont mind bumping into other people who are on dates…..its the other people who i care bec there the ones that the second they see me will start texting and calling e/o -if i see people who are on dates its fine bec they are in the same matzav as me”
I must be missing something. I don’t understand what you posted. What other people are there at the hotel except for those on dates? DO kids actually hang out at the hotel lounges when they are NOT on a date??
boys should not close the door for the girl when entering the car to let her carry her dress into the car
JayMatt – coming from the girl’s side here.
Of course it’s easier when I’m told about a boy who said yes already. However, very often, someone will suggest a name, we’ll look into it and see it’s totally off the wall. Then I can tell the person who suggested it, to not even bother redding it to the boy. It’s so much harder when they suggest a guy who gave a “yes” and then to have to say “no” because it’s not shoyach. I hate that responsibility and feel bad every time I do it.
JayMatt, it’s not a problem of spilling the beans as much as how I described it, at least that’s my experience and what I heard at a local shidduch shiur addressed by a rav and shadchan.
Oomis, what’s happening with the girls is that someone comes up with a name, not necessarily a shadchan, the girl looks into it, then they try to find a shadchan to redt it. Happened to me recently, someone suggested a boy’s name, this someone not being in a position to redt it but would have tried to find someone if I was interested. I tracked down excellent people to ask about him, then I thought about it. It would definitely get back to the family that I was looking into him and they’d never even heard of us. It felt slimy and invasive so we’re waiting till it can be done k’seder.
Joseph, sorry if our sensitivities are different.
This “crises” exists, but only to the extent that we make a big deal of it to the general klal. If kids were not brought up hearing about the “crises” they would not start dating and “pushing”, making others want to jump in so to still have a place. what makes a girl “old” if she is 22 or 23 before she finds her beshert? It is not old, and girls of that age should not be treated as second-rate, just because they were not lucky enough to find it before they hit 21! People need to realize that if 22 is the new “old maid” then those nearing that age bracket will be considered “almost spoiled” or whatever terminology that you wish to use. By marrying those closer to your age, there will be more people “within range” or more people. if you have all the older bochurim getting set up with younger, who will the younger boys get if not those even younger! But, if the boys would get someone 1-2 years younger than they are, then this gap can be closed.
oomis-thats exactly what im saying-the only other girls there ARE the ones on dates,so its ok then
“It felt slimy and invasive so we’re waiting till it can be done k’seder.”
So it doesn’t feel slimy and invasive when the BOY is doing the checking about YOU??? I would feel so much worse if I knew someone was checking into me and then decided against the shidduch. Both sides have the same risk of rejection. it should not be one side or the other. JMO.
I do not 100% agree with havesomeseichel’s opinion that the boy and girl should be 1-2 years apart in age. The boys and girls should be set up with compatible people. That may be an age gap of four years or eight years, or no years. Age should be only one of many criteria and not a main one. people focus too much on the number and not the personalities involved. Yes, it would seem ideal that a boy and girl should be within a reasonable age range, but it doesn’t always work out that way, and our kids should not be limiting themselves these days and potntially missing out on a good shidduch.
Why is it more important that the girl never hear a “no”, then vice versa?
I think this is actually important because the boys get “lists” and the girls dont. So, a boy has a list of ten girls and you are number 9. Does it make sense to do the research, find out the guy sounds great, only to be turned down because he never made it past #3? Perhaps though, the boys parents should superficially look into all the girls on the list to see which ones are definitely wrong.
This is one thing that doesnt bother me – at least its a consistent format.
Oomis, in a perfect world I might know that someone is looking into my daughter, but I won’t know who. In my case, I just felt like a stalker. They’d hear I was looking into their son, had NEVER heard of me, may not be able to track down who did suggest the name, and I just don’t like doing things that way.
JayMatt agree with you a hundred percent. I’m a girl and it’s frustrating when the shadcahan calls us before the boy and then doesn’t get back because the boy said no. Just like save it and let me know when he says yea.
On the other hand it’s nice to know ppl are thinking about you.
P.S. Stay away from the Ritz. It’s always flooded with ppl. I met at least ten girls I knew there and it was awkward everyone was checking out everyone else’s guy. If you go there already then walk by the water there. It’s stunning
JayMatt – Your original tips/pointers list was very well said. pinpointed important things for pple to remember.
tzippi: what are your sensibilities like? you agree with jaymatt19 that girls are emotionally needy and must be sheltered in life from rejection? are your daughters able to cope for the times in life that rejection happen? and why is, in your opinion, a girl more needy of not facing rejection than a boy?
Stay away from the Ritz. It’s always flooded with ppl.
Which lounge isn’t always crowded with people you know? That’s like murphy’s law while dating…
Do something fun on a first date. Even if you don’t like the person for your future spouse, at least you will have had an enjoyable evening. Sitting in a hotel lounge is BORING, puts too much pressure on the couple to make conversation that may not flow as easily as it would if they were really having fun together on the date, and if a bunch of other couples are there on thei first date, too, it can be really awkward. There is just so much space to sit in at a hotel lounge. I never liked that idea, and I never will. A guy who uses his imagination to think of something pleasant to do, is a guy who really wants to enjoy spending time with the girl he is seeing that night.
oomis, dates are not for enjoyment. They are for tachlis.
>> you agree with jaymatt19 that girls are emotionally needy and must be sheltered in life from rejection?<<
Please enlighten me as to where I said this.
joseph, i know close to zero about shidduch dating, but don’t you think they could get to know each other a little bit? what’s wrong with having fun? why does everything have to be so dry? and what does tachlis mean anyway? then you may as well do it like chassiddim – settle all the “tachlis” from beforehand.
it’s just a thought. i don’t know the first thing about this stuff.
“oomis, dates are not for enjoyment. They are for tachlis.”
Torah learning is also for Tachlis. Is it not meant to be enjoyed, as well?
jaymatt: “Because as a general klal, women are more emotional then men.”
exactly. Therefore, try to work within the system of the guy getting the suggestion before the girl.
No where did I take it to the next level which you did by saying they are “emotionally needy and must be sheltered in life from rejection”. Never spoke about being needy, nor the need to shelter.
I just spoke about being a mench. If you want to say that, fine. Please don’t quote me saying what I did not say.
Joseph, need to disagree with you here. There is a TACHLIS in seeing whether you can have a good time/fun with the person you are dating. WHo wants to marry someone they cannot have fun with?
Could argue as to when is a good time in the dating process to do this, but there is definitely a toeles to it.
re w.h.: The problem is, the girls now have to be aggressive (Ok, their mothers have to be) to get dates. They have to put themselves out there and there’s this feeling of pick me, pick me. I have to think about this some more, make sure I can really articulate what the problem is. If someone else gets there first and does it well, kol hakavod.
beacon, you’d be surprised. I was at a couple of lounges that were nice n quiet including the Mariott
oomis, I’m with you a hundred percent! I never got why arcades and bowling were a fourth date!! cuz the first date is only to see if you like the guy! so the first should be something fun, and then if you feel you want to discuss real tachlis, then do the lounge and have heavy conversations
myshadow and oomis-
you hit it right on the nail.For a first date I hate hotel lounges.And so do 99% of my friends.
The lights are to low in hotels it makes me tired.
I feel that hotel lounges should be when the couple is getting very serious and for DMC’s.Not the first date or second date.
On a first date you want to break the ice.In my opinion doing something-it doesn’t have to be expensive-like taking a walk or playing a board game at a hotel ect.. will help break the ice.
Going to the same hotels drinking the same old stale soda is just plain boring!
memo to all boy daters: as somone who is in the parsha we really don’t like to just sit in hotel lounges- getting up and doing something even taking a walk will be fine!
BasYisroel, you really ever played a board game in a hotel?? get out that’s adorable but I would feel kinda awkward
Still trying to articulate why the boy giving the yes first is preferable. A few thoughts:
– if the playing field were even, might be different. But what’s happening now as opposed to a generation ago is that the girl says yes, but she’s still only one of a number in the running. Whereas the girl most likely isn’t being presented with a dozen or more boys at the same time.
– if I can’t articulate it well, does that mean, as per the Brisker Rav, that I really don’t understand? Take an example like alternative lifestyles. Our visceral reaction is, the Torah says no! It’s been ingrained in us and we may not feel a need to say more.
For me, when it comes to shidduchim, tznius is something that has been ingrained and frankly, I really can’t get into the mindsets of some of the commenters here. When it comes to marriage tznius and proper treatment of women is a cornerstone. Shouldn’t this be the same in the steps leading to marriage?
Why don’t we come up with a suggested list of places to go to get to know people without going to a hotel lobby?
1) Brooklyn Botanical Gardens
2) Bronx Zoo
3) NY Aquarium
4) Bear Mountain (its awesome!)
5) Walk around Rockland Lake
How bout a boat ride? I did it once it was beautiful
SJS I am SO with you on those suggestions. Queens alaso has a Botanical Gardens, and there is Old Bethpage, Riverhead, a ferry ride to Staten Island or Connecticut from Port Jefferson (day trip from start to finish).
Why don’t we come up with a suggested list of places to go to get to know people without going to a hotel lobby?
How many of those are winter friendly?
How many of those are winter friendly?
Spring is in the air! Hopefully everyone will be married by the fall 🙂
I happen to love nature so thats a lot easier for me. And I am not sure what museums fall under “kosher” for people, so I didnt want to mention any.
If you want to sit around and talk, you can always drive up to a ski lodge and sit down with steaming cups of coffee. At least you are sitting near a fire and can watch people tumble down on skis 🙂
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