Shidduchim & "The Boys' Mother"

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  • #1122895

    ??? ??? ??? ?????

    #1122896
    brooklynboy55
    Participant

    I don’t understand why it’s a problem for the boy’s mother to want the best possible girl for her son. How is that unreasonable?

    #1122897
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    The problem is that the mother doesn’t necessarily know what her son wants.

    #1122898
    MDG
    Participant

    “How is that unreasonable? “

    “The problem is that the mother doesn’t necessarily know what her son wants. “

    She might not know what he needs either. She might not even know what she wants. Kind of like a kid in a candy shop. “this looks good… wait… maybe this… maybe this….”

    #1122899
    Joseph
    Participant

    The parents often have a better idea what the child needs than the child. And the child often understands and accepts that and wants the parents to be directly involved.

    #1122900
    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    “I don’t understand why it’s a problem for the boy’s mother to want the best possible girl for her son. How is that unreasonable?”

    Most mothers probably are solely interested in the best interests of their son.

    However there are some mothers who probably envision having a certain type of girl as a daughter in law and will be biased towards that type.

    For example if a mother and her daughters tend to dress “trendy” the mother might be uncomfortable or embarassed to have a daughter in law who dresses out of style. She might be self conscious to take her dil to shul with her etc..

    Her son might not care at all whether his wife will wear the latest styles or not.

    #1122901
    The Queen
    Participant

    Boys and their mothers want pretty girls because a pretty girl equals a healthy girl, which means good genes to pass on to their offspring. Most people are not even aware that this is the underlying reason that boys look for a pretty girl.

    #1122902
    MDG
    Participant

    “The parents often have a better idea what the child needs than the child. And the child often understands and accepts that and wants the parents to be directly involved. “

    I assume that’s true often, but not always. Parents can also be subjective, looking at a shidduch for all the same reasons as a child, good or bad.

    #1122903
    Joseph
    Participant

    Pretty does not necessarily mean any healthier than a less pretty person. A less pretty is just as likely to be healthier.

    #1122904
    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    “Boys and their mothers want pretty girls because a pretty girl equals a healthy girl, which means good genes to pass on to their offspring.”

    Interesting theory, could be thats how evolutionists would explain why men developed attraction for pretty females.

    However I really doubt thats why the boys mother would want a pretty girl.

    Also most boys want skinny girls, skinniness is not a sign of healthiness.

    If anything being a little plump is a sign of healthiness.

    #1122905
    Joseph
    Participant

    The parents are older, wiser, more experienced and knows their child.

    #1122906
    MDG
    Participant

    “Pretty does not necessarily mean any healthier than a less pretty person.”

    There are some natural pretty traits that translate to healthy, like facial symmetry (left side and right side), youth, healthy looking skin & hair.

    There are others that are more cultural, like skinny or hair color, which may have nothing to do with healthy.

    #1122907
    MDG
    Participant

    “The parents are older, wiser, more experienced and knows their child. “

    Many boys are out of the house for many years, including high school, yeshiva, etc. Parents may not know the boy all that well. They are living with the image they had.

    I had an “older and wiser” relative (not parent) set me up once because they wanted to be connected to the chashuv family. Like I said, they can be just as subjective. BTW, the girl was quite rude.

    I have friend that admitted that he was attracted to a certain girl for his son based on the way she looks. He admits that he went after his eyes. B”H it didn’t work out. He asked a Rav for a good shidduch suggestion, and he son is happily married to that suggested girl. My friend said that this girl is not the kind of DIL that he wanted. To which I replied, that she’s the good shidduch FOR HIS SON. To which he admitted that’s what more important.

    #1122908
    flatbusher
    Participant

    so what’s to become of the girls who are not pretty? And who said parents know best? Let’s see, who picked the shidduch for Yitzchak, Yaakov, Yosef and Moshe Rabbenu. Hakadosh baruch Hu and for some reason I believe that Hashem does not make shidduchim based on beauty alone.

    #1122909
    The Queen
    Participant

    so what’s to become of the girls who are not pretty?

    Obviously everyone in this world has a zivug 40 days before conception. The “not pretty” girls get married too. Not all boys are perfect either. Just explaining why they are more wanted.

    #1122910
    Joseph
    Participant

    Girl with middos tovos are more wanted than pretty girls, when there is a tradeoff.

    #1122911
    The Queen
    Participant

    For sure. But if the option is good midos and pretty or good midos and not so pretty…. Hashem braided Chava’s hair before her marriage to Adam to make her beautiful. It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.

    #1122912
    The Queen
    Participant

    Getting back on topic, the reason the boys mother is more involved in a boys shidduch, is simple. The boy and his parents are looking for a wife. This means talking to the teachers, friends, neighbors of the potential kallah. So who is going to make the phone calls to the teachers and friends etc. the Tatte or the Mamma??? Obviously the Mom!

    When looking for a Chosson, son-in-law it’s the father who will be making the phone calls to the Rosh yeshiva, roommates, mashgiach etc. SIMPLE.

    #1122913
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if a man-child of 25 needs mommy to tell him what woman he should marry, I feel sorry for his wife. She’ll always be second to mommy

    #1122914
    brooklynboy55
    Participant

    There are plenty of girls with good middos. I think that’s why prettiness becomes such a determining factor.

    #1122915
    Joseph
    Participant

    “It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.”

    Where?

    #1122916
    Joseph
    Participant

    “There are plenty of girls with good middos. I think that’s why prettiness becomes such a determining factor.”

    Finding good middos is harder than finding pretty. There are plenty of pretty girls.

    #1122917
    The Queen
    Participant

    A person’s inside is on his face to a certain degree. Your subconscious knows it, even if consciously you are unaware. When you are looking at a person whom you consciously view as pretty, your subconscious is telling you this person is desirable. A person’s midos are reflected on his face.

    That is what face reading / Chochmas Hapartzif is about.

    #1122918
    Joseph
    Participant

    “Getting back on topic, the reason the boys mother is more involved in a boys shidduch, is simple. The boy and his parents are looking for a wife. This means talking to the teachers, friends, neighbors of the potential kallah. So who is going to make the phone calls to the teachers and friends etc. the Tatte or the Mamma??? Obviously the Mom!

    When looking for a Chosson, son-in-law it’s the father who will be making the phone calls to the Rosh yeshiva, roommates, mashgiach etc. SIMPLE.”

    Great answer. Best so far.

    Similar to my explanation that the mom is the shidduch secretary.

    #1122919

    Joseph, if a man-child of 25 needs mommy to tell him what woman he should marry, I feel sorry for his wife. She’ll always be second to mommy

    That might very well be true in a culture which expects him to take care of it himself.

    It is most definitely not true where the expectation is that the parents will take care of shidduchim.

    #1122920
    The Queen
    Participant

    “It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.”

    Where?

    ???? ???? ???

    ?? ??’ ???? ?

    #1122921
    technical21
    Participant

    DY- the point being made is that the system is ridiculous. There is no reason that a 25-year-old boy who is ready to get married should be relying completely on his parents for shidduchim, and, once he is married, relying completely on his in-laws for support.

    #1122922

    He’s not relying completely on his parents for shidduchim, and usually not completely on his in-laws for support.

    #1122923
    golfer
    Participant

    There’s an interesting theme running through a lot of these shidduch threads. I wonder if I’m the only one who’s noticed it.

    Listen to the ladies talk about guys. They’re not describing them favorably, or expressing much respect. The guys are infantile, listening to Mommy, expecting financial support, shallow and obsessed with looks, among myriad other faults too numerous to list.

    The guys’ mothers are the embodiment of evil, infantilizing their sons, interested in all the wrong things, asking ridiculous questions, and the polar opposite of the refined Eishes Chayil described by Shlomo Hamelech.

    Now listen to the girls complain that they haven’t found their bashert: They are heartbroken. They want to be married and are not. They want a husband, presumably a guy (member of the same genus described above), who, if he’s not unfortunately an orphan, comes along with that venerable creature- the guy’s mother!

    Switch all this to the high heels thread we’re in middle of right now. Say I join and list all the reasons I hate high heels. They’re extremely uincomfortable. They’re bad for my posture. They bend my vertebrae irreparably out of shape. I think they’re ugly. They make me look unattractive. They’re bad for my digestion. They’re more expensive than regular shoes. They look ridiculous. All my friends agree with me.

    Then I end by stating that I’m devastated because I don’t have high heels. And all my friends who agree also don’t own any high heeled shoes and are upset.

    What would you say?

    #1122924
    #1122925
    golfer
    Participant

    DY, I’m always impressed when you do that– Find a post from ages ago that fits right into the current discussion. Must be all that time spent hunched over a Gemara…

    Can you also accurately pinpoint the exact daf and amud and line where anything your chavrusa mentions appears?

    #1122926

    Google doesn’t work for that πŸ™

    #1122927
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, golfer. It’s more like if all the shoes on the market are high heels and they are shopping for flat shoes. And they are very upset that they can’t find shoes and have to walk barefoot when the shoemaker/shoestore should have the right kind of shoes for them.

    #1122928
    The Queen
    Participant

    “Google doesn’t work for that”

    Then it’s kedai to be related to a big Talmud Chacham if you can’t be one yourself πŸ™‚

    #1122929
    technical21
    Participant

    golfer- fair point.

    It’s very easy to get frustrated and hurt by all the hurdles of shidduchim. When people are in pain, they tend to try to find someone to blame for it. Many boys and their mothers, who, from a girl’s perspective, embody a lot of what is wrong with the shidduch system, are a convenient target.

    #1122930
    Joseph
    Participant

    tech21: I suppose that from a boys perspective many girls and their parents embody a lot of what’s wrong with shidduchim.

    #1122931

    Nah. The boys generally don’t have a problem getting dates.

    #1122932
    Joseph
    Participant

    The boys are at fault that the girls can’t get dates?

    #1122933
    brooklynboy55
    Participant

    “”It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.”

    Where?

    ???? ???? ???

    ?? ??’ ???? ?”

    Doesn’t the gemarah say isha naeh bemaasim?

    #1122934

    No, their mothers are.

    #1122935
    The Queen
    Participant

    Brooklynboy: I don’t learn Gemara, I did get an explanation but unfortunately I lost the notes, I figured that if I’ll give you the exact place you can learn it for yourself. Yes it does say ??? ??? ??????

    and other things as well. So learn it and you tell me. If you can’t figure it out, I’ll get it again, tomorrow. My source wakes up early to learn…

    #1122936
    The Queen
    Participant

    There is one thing that I don’t get in this whole conversation about girls who can’t get dates: Every date involves a boy and a girl, so please explain the math to me. How can it be that boys go on more dates??? There is 1 girl and 1 boy on each date.

    #1122937
    technical21
    Participant

    Joseph- DY’s point is correct; they don’t have so much to complain about, since their shidduchim go relatively smoothly. They don’t have to go through what we have to go through in order to get dates.

    Obviously, there are other frustrations involved for boys, and some of the blame does go the other way. But since girls are in the position of weakness in this equation, it makes sense that a lot more blame is vented at the boys (and specifically their mothers, since they are the ones who take care of their sons’ shidduchim).

    #1122938
    Joseph
    Participant

    Queen: There are more single girls in the parsha than single boys in the parsha.

    Also see: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-torahs-view-of-the-husband-wife-relationship#post-397192

    #1122939
    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    Maybe if the girls stopped wearing such high heels they would appeal more to the guys. And the guys should stop wearing heels too.

    #1122940
    technical21
    Participant

    Hashemisreading- what is your classification of “such” high heels?

    #1122941
    brooklynboy55
    Participant

    Queen: I did learn it and it isn’t mashma at all that it means a pretty wife.

    #1122942
    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    Technical21: I think over 4.5 inches is too high, unless your really short.

    #1122943
    Joseph
    Participant

    brooklynboy55: Read the thread I linked to, five comments above, for other interesting related Gemoras and Meforshim.

    #1122944
    technical21
    Participant

    Hashemisreading- the highest heels I have ever worn are 2 3/4 inches, and I’m 5’3″. Most of my friends are taller than me and wear heels that are a minimum of 3 1/2 inches.

    As I said, I do wear heels on dates.

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