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If the girl you are talking about was never told about this possibility/probability she has a real taina.
mdd: The commandment applies to geirim who already converted. Not to those who asked or sought to convert but haven’t.
(I’m also awaiting for your reply to my previous comment.)
A potential ger should be forewarned about the difficulties in shidduchim so they could consider that before converting. A potential BT should not be deterred from becoming a BT by being given such a warning since he has an obligation to become a BT regardless of any difficulties in shidduchim.
Mammele, well from what I read thats my take on it.
On a side note, I am jealous of the schar a ger earns for sacrificing so much to keep the mitzvos even at the expense of such social hardship.
May my lot in olam haba be like theirs.
Joseph, before a Rabbi asks a BT to start paying shule and yeshiva dues out of his own pocket, I think he or she should be told he probably wont find a shidduch in the mainstream community he is paying to be part of.
I would imagine it would not be pleasant being part of a community where you are considered not good enough or appropriate enough to marry into.
-I personally would find it uneasy even being invited over for shabbos to someone who would not consider me or my kids good enough to marry into the mainstream community.
Actually, I’ve heard several rabbonim say that the mitzvah of ahavas hager applies from the moment they come sincerely and abandon their former religion.
newbee: So a person shouldn’t be a chosid of a Rebbe who wouldn’t marry his children into the chosid’s family or be part of a kehila where the Rov wouldn’t marry his children to a baal habayis since the Rebbe and the Rov want to marry their children to other talmidei chachomim or rabbinic families?
You wouldn’t want to be invited to Rav Elyashiv for Shabbos since you would be pretty safe to assume he wouldn’t marry his children (or grandchildren) to your children?
Im not talking about the one leader of the community or gadol hador, but the mainstream.
I would feel uncomfortable going to a member of rov elyashiv’s shule for shabbos lunch who would view me and my kids not good enough to marry into the their family or the mainstream community.
I would rather go to another community for shabbos or eat at home. Baruch Hashem I live in a community I dont have that problem.
I have to say Joseph, while Im sure you have many good traits- given your mindset and black and white hierarchical world views, if I was a ger from Nigeria, I probably would decline an invitation to your house for shabbos. You certainly have the right to exclude from marriage material anyone you wish, but they also have the right to exclude you from shabbos invitations and close friend material.
Mods: I understand the reason for the edit, but I’m still curious how many of you got my reference. My comment is kind of moot without it, and I couldn’t find a better way to “defend” the Syrian Rabbis regarding the ban without mentioning a “bad” example. Oh well…
Newbee: being in the Shidduch parsha with a child now, I can tell you that most regular nice frum Jewish folks are not good enough for most regular nice frum Jewish folks when it comes to Shidduchim. That’s why a shidduch is likened to Krias Yam Suf.
Joseph, you are right that the commandment applies once they converted. Where did i indicate otherwise?
I would tell her to wait first for the Rashi’s grandson.
Also, what is it that you don’t understand? There is a difference between yichus being a consideration and “Geirim need not apply”(Chas ve’sholom).
Also, buddy, I am waiting for your reply as to whether you would marry Rus or Rabi Akiva’s daughter?
Also, what is it that you don’t understand about newbee’s comment? You don’t understand that these hakpodos create a division in Klal Yisroel? It is self-evident, and it is a befeirushe Gemorah on the second to last omud in Ta’anis?
gosh newbee, i wanted to agree with you many posts ago but i was sure you wouldve been stopped from your “attacks” long ago.
You have to understand that excluding an excluder is not only not punitive, but they will probably consider it a favor.
You make good points and i pray you should always be around people who value your value of Hashem’s brios.
And, yes, I know, if it is mandated by Halochah, then the side-effects of making people feel bad and divisiveness must be set aside, of course. I am talking about a situation where no such halochah exist.
Syag Lchochma, thanks for the kind words. Yea I guess you’re right one less meal they have to cook.
“I can tell you that most regular nice frum Jewish folks are not good enough for most regular nice frum Jewish folks when it comes to Shidduchim.”
Im sure that exists. So nu…I would say if my kids are inherently not good enough for you dont invite them for dinner either.
No one wants to be around other people who make them feel bad about themselves.
mdd: You didn’t address the questions in this post:
I didn’t suggest making public hakpodos in klal yisroel. I’m speaking of having personal, private, priorities for one’s own shidduchim prospects. Without public fanfare.
newbee: If you’re an American Jew, most Israeli Jews wouldn’t consider your family marriage material. (And vice versa.) If you’re MO, most Chareidim wouldn’t consider your family marriage material. If you’re Litvish, most Chasidim wouldn’t consider your family marriage material. (And vice versa.)
So you’d be uncomfortable at the Shabbos tables of Israelis, Chareidim and Chasidim – and would never consider being a member of their shuls?
well well, now who’s saying disparaging things about large portions of klal yisroel?
are most chareidim, chasidim and israeli Jews really that hateful, divisive and k’neged Torah?
interesting view point, I never knew.
I have spent many shabbos tables at people who are not like me and it really depends on the host if I am comfortable or not. If the host only discusses Kedoshim it really doesnt work, but if the host will discuss other topics that they think I might be interested in there is no problem
A Satmar family isn’t marrying into a YU family, for the most part. Or vice versa. A Brisker family isn’t marrying into a DL family, for the most part. A Open Orthodox family isn’t marrying into a Litvisher family, for the most part. Agreed by both sides. Known and common sense. It isn’t disparaging. They simply aren’t compatible with each other, for the most part. Of course there are a small number of exceptions. But all the above is the reality. And it isn’t offensive. A French only speaking boy isn’t marrying a Spanish only speaking girl. Don’t redt that shidduch. Not offensive either. But they’ll daven at each others shuls. At when travelling to each others countries, they’ll host each other for a Shabbos meal.
“private, priorities”
No No, I think we should get it out in the open because it will come out eventually anyway. At least let the person know how you secretly prioritize them. Dont do it behind their back.
If I knew the people inviting me over for shabbos deep down viewed me as “less than” or “not good enough” because of factors beyond my control I would not accept the invitation- it would not make me feel good about myself being among such people.
I would choose a shule me and my family would feel like “one of the family”. Not an outsider who will always be an outsider and less than. I hope the giyores mentioned by the OP finds a shule where she can feel like one of the family in and comfortable. Historically, the ways families and nations made peace was by marrying their sons to their daughters and their daughters to their sons.
“A Satmar family isn’t marrying into a YU family”
What about a black giyores who becomes Satmar? Can she marry into a Satmar family? What about a BT who becomes Litvish? Can he marry into a Litvish family?
what about a satmar or litvish family that isnt worrying about what the neighbors think? can they marry into that family?
what about a satmar, litvish, chasidish or really frum family that worries more about what piece of Hahsem is residing inside a person than what they happen to look like, can they marry into that family? Or should we expect from your posts that they don’t have members like that. I refuse to be mekabel.
newbee: If you prioritize a bas talmid chochom, you will tell the non talmidei chachomim they don’t make the cut for your shidduch priorities for that reason?
what if its a bas talmid chochom who also happens to be a menuvel? or a bas talmid chochom sho also happens to have done time in jail for good reason? do you realize that the nose snubbing catagories are both flawed and never ending? How bout just looking for the right person without assuming where you will find them as opposed to where you won’t.
So you can ask the question lehavdeel what about the extremely rare case of a frum mamzer?
Such a person should find a community where he could feel comfortable in to the best of his ability. I dont suggest a known mamzer live in a community full of famous talmeidi chachomim who come directly from Rashi. He probably wont feel good about himself being surrounded by such people all the time.
Syag, why don’t you just put all the boys names in one hat, all the girls names in another hat, make a gorel where you pull one out of each hat and redt them to each other for a shidduch?
because MY point to you is that a person should be checked out to make sure that they are worthy instead of just assuming that their “catagory” speaks for itself. That’s why.
Newbee: I’m not talking about “inherently” not good enough for me or anybody else to associate with. On a day to day basis, most compatibility and personality issues — and even faults — are not even thought about or noticed. However, when it comes to Shidduchim people and their families are examined with a magnifying glass; their faults, personalities and looks dissected and weighed.
That, and of course basic attraction, is how matches are eventually made (versus the Queen that matched her 400(?) servants and maid servants Wille-Nilly to prove a point, with disasterous results).
If this process makes you so queasy that you can’t eat at most people’s home it’s sad indeed. I hope that’s not really the case though and you misunderstood me.
A boy growing up in Meah Shearim doesn’t tell you something that he’s likely very different, in specific ways, than a boy growing up in Teaneck?
“If you prioritize a bas talmid chochom…..”
Yea say it straight this way they will stop trying all these other things to marry your child. This way they at least know because of who their father was they have no shot anyway so it will save them time. People pick up on these things one way or another.
Joseph, pretend for one second you were a ger from Nigeria.
You would feel comfortable being part of a chareidi community where no one would marry you. Viewed it that marrying you would be mechasser their kedusha, thought of you as lowly because you have no yichus and cant have authority etc…. Being part of a community that in your eyes would LITERALLY save your life last…..
You would be fine going to those same people for shabbos meals and constantly being surrounded by the happy families you would never be part of while having no family of your own?
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