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popa, having preferences in shidduchim isn’t an invention.
newbee, so you’d be perfectly fine if a young never married guy took the position that his preference is he will not date or marry short people, geirim, people from impovershed families or divorced people so long as he only attributes all that to a personal preference and not a Jewish value?
Joseph, Yes completely fine with that. Marriage is an agreement and partnership where both sides have to be satisfied in the deal. I encourage people to be open minded though.
So long as they dont try to get other people and society not to date those people.
Joseph, do you have a source that a Yisroel can increase his holiness by marrying a FFB (or even a BT) instead of a ger?
Newbee and popa are correct in their criticism of Joseph’s position. He gave marrying a non ger halachic import by comparing it to a kohen’s dinim, although his lack of providing a source shows that he completely made it up on his own.
I didn’t attribute halachic import to a Yisroel marrying a non ger. And if it came across as such, let this be clarification that I attribute no halachic import to it. What I did was make a deduction that the reason there is halachic import for a Kohein marrying a ger is because of reasons of kedusha. And I suggested that, perhaps, a Yisroel may desire such a level of kedusha even though he isn’t obligated in such a level – and there is no halachic import to it. (Related to this idea, I know an adom godol zt’l, who is a Yisroel, that I know from personally walking with him he would not walk under an awning protruding in front of a funeral home, lest there be a meis inside. He would walk around it.)
Ok Im glad we cleared it up.
People can choose not to marry others with black hair and only date blondes. That is unequivocally valid. Its only when they won’t marry someone who they would like to marry because society tells them, subtly or otherwise, they shouldn’t marry people with black hair, when deep down they would be happy marrying someone with black hair and its halachically sanctioned.
Only then does it become a problem.
If someone refuses to consider marrying a giyores because he does not like Geirim, indeed he would be oiver those issurim. People really need to know where their shittos really come from.
So, Joseph, you would not marry Rabbi Akiva’s daughter or Rus?I’d like to see you justify that.
A lot of your shittos, Joseph, really come from wrong preconceived hashkofos and not having “room in the heart”. Not every zach the Chassidim hold of is automatically correct.
So regarding race it remains a question, what to do when the parents or the community in general wants to preserve the color and texture of their offspring the same way as it has been for hundreds of years (in this case the color happens to be white) but that excludes others from the shidduch market?
I think the answer is for such people of color to find a community with people like them already in it- then it will be easy to find a shidduch and feel comfortable. It does not only apply to people of color but all sorts of people. Just like BTs might feel more comfortable being part of a community with many BTs and a Rov who is a BT.
Will animosity exist towards a community that rejects certain other people from marrying their daughters and sons?
Probably, and Im really not sure what there is one can realistically do about it.
“I didn’t attribute halachic import to a Yisroel marrying a non ger.”
You attributed hashkafic import to it lemeisa.
Joseph, I can’t help but ask if you are left handed.
People should have the right to choose not to marry people with blond eyebrows or attached earlobes, but communities should not be allowed to make such decisions for their people.
RY: except the Syrian Jewish community did exactly that years ago by prohibiting marrying geirim, and considering the circumstances were probably right. So there’s an exception to every rule…
Joseph, there are also young widows r”l. As for physical attributes, there are certain blemishes that can be a cause for divorce (see Even HaEzer 39:3 with Rambam Hilchot Biat HaMikdash ch. 8). However, love conquers all (Even HaEzer 154;2). BTW, sinister” is Latin for left-handed. On the other hand, Ehud was able to save Am Yisrael because he was left-handed.
I dont think the syrians prohibited marrying Gerim, the prohibitted themselves from making gerim, but they accept them from other communities.
If you go to the Syrian community in Brooklyn asking about conversion they will tell you they dont do it, but they will tell you where to go
ZD, you’re wrong. The Syrian community prohibited marrying gerim, plain and simple. If a Syrian Jew marries a giyores, he is no longer considered part of the Syrian community. I’m not sure if it works the other way (female Syrian marrying ger). The edict has been supported by generations of Syrian hahamim.
If any SY marries a ger, they’re out of the community. No exceptions.
They also do not allow gerim to hold membership or have aliyos in their shuls.
Dovrosenbaum (Joseph), not for your reasons.
WOW, I know many wonderful gerim and its a shame they cant marry any Syrians. I didnt realize they were that harsh
Loath as I am to write this without a quote, I happened to see this week ?????? that there is a ???? that a Yisroel does not become ??? ?? for no reason.
Its irking me that I cannot remember where I saw it [but whatever it was, it was reliable enough that it shocked me].
Not only the Syrians. Rav Aviner said that during the colonial period rich Jews fell in love with gentile French women and tried to pressure the rabbis into performing pro forma giurim so they made a blanket takkana. In some countries the rabbanim will not perform giurim because of possible friction with the authorities who see the state as bound up with the Catholic church.
ZD, they had a problem in their community with men dating Goyishe girls whom they later would try to convert for the purposes of marriage. Obviously, there was a very strong concern about the validity of such conversions. Hence, the takonah.
Yekke2, not getting tamei does not affect others. Refusing to marry someone and making a good frume zach out of it is a major bein odom le’chaveiro issue.(Needless to say not something Joeseph and his ilk would worry about.)
ZD: in fairness, they can marry a ger if they choose to move and/or change Shuls. So if they’re both sincere they can probably find another kehilla that will accept the couple. Not easy, but sometimes may be the right thing.
“Refusing to marry someone and making a good frume zach out of it is a major bein odom le’chaveiro issue.”
Yea but as long as its a good zach who cares if it would cause countless numbers of gerim who read it unnecessary pain and anxiety. It doesn’t effect me, no sweat off my back.
I suspect the takana was not because of dating but because of the danger of performing conversions. A muslim who converts to Judaism is subject to the death penalty (As was christians during the Middle Ages) Rabbis did not perform conversions except in the Netherlands because they could get killed
mdd: If your daughter was redt two otherwise equal guys for a shidduch, one was a black ger born in Nigeria (now living in the US) and the other was Jewish born in the US with a long line of documented yichus from both sides directly back to Rashi and the gedolim in the doros since. The American for whatever reason won’t be available for dating for a week after the Nigerian is available for dating, but other than the aforementioned both are equally good boys and a match for your daughter. Would you have your daughter first date the Nigerian?
Matan1: No. But that wouldn’t affect that left-handedness is a mum.
If your daughter was redt two otherwise equal guys for a shidduch, one was a black ger born in Nigeria (now living in the US) and the other was Jewish born in the US with a long line of documented yichus from both sides directly back to Rashi and the gedolim in the doros since. The American for whatever reason won’t be available for dating for a week after the Nigerian is available for dating, but other than the aforementioned both are equally good boys and a match for your daughter.
I belive the son or grandson of Moshe Rabbeneu was a Rasha and the Sons of Korach were Tzdekim and the decendents of Haman became the head of the Sandedrin. And a decendent of the Baal Shem tov has been in the news lately for a “Change” in their life. Yichus can be overrated
Do you think that a lefty should learn to use his right hand?
“I know many wonderful gerim and its a shame they cant marry any Syrians.”
For me, the bigger question is how someone can be friends with people in another group who would never consider them suitable marriage material. Wont it be akward at the shabbos table? I would not want to be friends with people in that group in the first place.
How do you make it so there is not animosity between such groups? How effective can a kiruv Rabbi be who would not consider the people he is being mekariv good enough to marry into his native community?
ZD: the takanah was made here in the US. The only danger was that of insincere converts and as a result “weak” Jewish families. And from a SY female point of view, a shidduch crisis a lot worse than what we have now, as the Jewish girls couldn’t possibly compete with non Jewish outsiders.
ZD: The takana was created in Brooklyn New York, so I don’t think it has anything to do with those reasons. If people find it hard to find a defense for the takana, it’s probably because it’s utterly indefensible.
Joseph: If they’re both equally good matches for the daughter then why wouldn’t you let her date the Nigerian? I thought your argument was that it’s okay as long as it’s out of personal preference. But, if they’re both “equally good matches” then doesn’t that imply they both fit her personal preference?
How many more posts till the thread gets closed? My bet is 7.
One of the converts I know well converted and they found out later they didnt need to convert as they were jewish all along. I belive there is a idea that a convert really isnt a convert but someone who is just coming back
To the OP, just curious, did the Rabbi who worked with this woman prior to her converting warn her that it would be very hard to find a shidduch in the community she was interested in living in? And do kiruv Rabbis warn BTs without ffb families in advanced it will be hard to find a shidduch with ffb families once you join us?
I did a quick google and there was a woman who converted in israel and Rav Ovadiah Yosef personally flew from israel to Brooklyn to vouch for the woman they still refused to let her marry one of them. They disobeyed the gadol Hador for this takanah
Why cant I say the reason for the ban marrying gerim might be more an ethnic solidarity than religious thing?
Joseph, yichus is definitely a valid consideration. But “no Geirim need apply” is wrong, especially, when it is for mean-spirited reasons.
Mamele, it was not a question of “weak” families, but of them not having Jewish status at all if the woman’s conversion was invalid.
NCB: That question was designed for mdd to answer. It isn’t indicative of anyone else’s beliefs. Let’s wait to see if mdd offers the same response to it as you have.
I don’t like the idea of pushing away anybody sincere who wishes to join our people and accept Torah. The Torah commands us 36 times to love the ger, and I see the takanah as being at odds with that.
BUT, the takanah is halachically legitimate. It began in Buenos Aires by the Diber Shaul. It spread to America in 1935. Hacham Ouziel, zt”l, defended the legitimacy of the community’s right to enact the takanah, despite his own shitos on giyur.
The SY takkanah was passed because they felt they needed to put gedarim to protect them from assimilation.
The reason why historically, a ger was turned away three times was because of fear of persecutions. We were a proselytizing religion in Roman times, but that soon changed due to persecutions.
Newbee, because that would be an aveirah and an injustice of tremendous proportions! If someone says he has a frum reason to be machmir, it is one thing, but to make such a takonah for reasons of ethnic solidarity flies in the face of everything the Torah says about not oppressing the Geirim and loving them. How about making a takonah to bite your neighbour when the Torah says:”Love your neighbor as yourself”?
mdd: Do you consider it okay to consider one skin color more desirable than another for shidduchim? Speaking personally, would you be less comfortable marrying (or having your son marry) a black girl?
Do you consider it okay to consider being a born-Jew more desirable than a ger for shidduchim? You said yichus is a valid positive consideration, and virtually every born Jew (especially coming from a frum line) has better yichus than geirim. If someone feels he will only marry someone with a lot of good yichus (which you appear okay with), he is effectively excluding geirim in his shidduchim.
Shidduchim are hard for everybody. But if you believe that a ger’s soul was at Sinai, and that the soul of their zivug was at Sinai with them, than whether in this world or the next, they’ll find their zivug.
Newbee: because you really don’t know enough surrounding the circumstances of the ban to have an informed opinion. It was a Rabbi that made it, nor some clueless layman.
Neville: As personal as this is for you, same applies to you.
Can you guys imagine a Kehilla of editeds (without being born to money, just marrying into it)?
That’s what the ban boiled down to, and that’s why MDD I wrote weak versus invalid, because it’s not always clear-cut. Even if the geirus is really Kosher, if they’re half-hearted about Yiddishkeit the family and kids will be effected.
“I’ve never heard of a kiruv rabbi deterring a potential BT with regards to shidduchim”
Thats because his kiruv would probably not be effective if the person the rabbi was being mekarev found out he would never be good enough to join the Rabbis family.
If a potential convert will probably not find a shidduch in the community and suffer because of this, it is the Rabbis OBLIGATION to inform the potential convert of this possibility in ADVANCE.
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