- This topic has 180 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Newbee, some families could use some color. Actually, some Ashkenazim are swarthy whereas some Sepharadim (particular from North Africa) are very fair-skinned.
Newbee: Don’t compare children to food.
I know many people whoose children married israelis and because of this find it hard to talk to their grandchildren. At least black kids speak english. (Most of them do)
What would be really bad for orthodox PR is if the everyone married colored people in the shule besides kohanim, then it would look like only white people were allowed to get the first alliya.
“Don’t compare children to food.”
By definition, a kal vechomer is not an equal comparison- it inherently means you are comparing two or more non-equal entities.
Thats the reality. Certain people dont like to change the look of anything from the old country of europe and gaclicia. They like the chala to look the same, the candles, the menoras, the shelves….and especially their offspring.
Its not being anti-X. Its wanting to preserve Y.
They are accepted everywhere. Its marrying them and changing the color of your children to a different color from the old country that is what many people dont wish to do.
Chabad not only accepts them into the community , they marry them
“Chabad not only accepts them into the community , they marry them”
Chabad non-racially mixed Rabbis marry their children to converts from other races?
It would be like Rosa Parks, non-whites are only good enough for the third alliya and lower lol
“Hence people trying to defend them. Do you care about these mitsvos?
(Again, I believe you are no Ger.)”
You can’t get around the mitzvah by dismissing any ger who’s opinions you don’t like. Why don’t you think I am (other than thinking I’m a Joseph alt which can easily be disproved with a couple of clicks)? Is it because I’m not as easily offended by people’s marriage choices as you would like me to be?
This is like when the liberals fought tooth and nail over the Redskins team name thing, but when they found out that actual Native Americans didn’t care, they were disappointed.
I never said I would rule out marrying a non FFB (such a restriction would probably leave someone in my shoes single forever). I said it is preferable for the reasons I mentioned in my first post. I don’t buy into the narrative that BTs and Gers should marry others of their kind. This leaves them a bit clueless when it comes to raising the kids.
I’ve seen the FFB-preferring crowd dragged through the mud on anonymous forums and I don’t think it’s fair. They have legitimate reasons.
I would not really limit myself in particular in shidduchim to answer the original post. However, I would feel a lot of guilt making a Sphardi girl give up her minhagim for mine especially since mine weren’t even passed down like her’s presumably would have been. Has anyone looked at it this way?
Newbee, it’s quite possible for a kohen to have a dark complexion. Besides people of (relatively) pure Jewish ancestry who are dark, it’s also possible for a kohen to marry the daughter of gerim. So I wouldn’t worry about the PR.
Neville, suffice it to say that you have very unusual views on these matters. Most other Geirim would disagree.
And, btw, Neville, I still think you are Joseph. Neikarim ha’dvorim.
Unfortunately I think Joseph’s alt account making days ended far before I got here.
I don’t think most gerim would disagree about being bothered by being pushed into marrying other gers or BTs. I also imagine it’s pretty common for male gers to feel bad about causing a female to give up minhagei avos for minhagim that aren’t exactly minhagei avos. I assume the “unusual view” you refer to is the fact that I’m not outraged by the reasonable expectation that one has a lot in common with the one he/she will be spending his/her life with. I think that’s just a matter of how empathetic a person is.
I can understand why it’s easier to write me off as a poser than to comprehend a ger who doesn’t fit into your narrative. I can also understand why it’s easier to write off anyone who sides with Joseph as an alt account (and in the past that would have had a high probability of being true). But, I will never understand the left’s insistence on trying to speak for groups of which they are not a part. See my above Redskins example.
Yehudayona, it is a machloket Rishonim if a cohen can marry the daughter of a ger and a gioret. The Mechaber paskens (Even HaEzer 7:21) to be machmir l’chatchila. This even continues for several generations (e.g. son of ger and gioret who marries gioret) until one parent is a Yisrael. Of course, if a black convert would marry a Yemenite or Malabari Jew the daughter would be black and eligible to marry cohanim according to all opinions and then there could be a black cohen.
The kohen thing was a joke. The last thing I wanted to do was start a halachic debate. Talk to your TOM (trusted orthodox mentor) for questions about serious issues.
mdd, If not considering a Ger for marriage was wrong, then the Torah wouldn’t forbid a Kohen from marrying a Ger. That the Torah considers this a valid consideration is proof that it is a valid consideration even if it is for someone who it isn’t prohibited – it surely is a consideration that is valid to take into account.
????? (??:?): ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??????:
????? ???? (??? ???? ?:?): ?? ?? ??? ????, ?? ????? ?? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???, ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??. ????? ?????? ?????, ??”? ???? ??????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ?? ????? ????. ???? ?? ????, ??”? ???? ????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ????? ????? ??. ??? ??? ?? ??????, ???’ ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ???? ????? ????? ??. ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???, ??”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ????, ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????. ??? ?????? ?????????, ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????, ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ??, ???? ????. ??”? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????, ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?? ?????.
Why is the issur to a kohen an indication that it’s a consideration for a non kohen?
Would you say the same about going to a cemetery?
I said it is fair for a non-kohen to elect to make it a consideration for himself. If the Torah considers it to be a virtue for a kohen to marry a non ger, as that is a higher status, a non-kohen may elect to also only wish to marry someone of such status that the Torah considers to be higher.
Joshua married Rachav who was likely forbidden to Cohenim too
Is it any more fair than electing to only marry someone born on a day there was krias Hatorah?
Than electing to not eat chometz a whole year?
Not to do melacha on Sunday?
Not drinking wine or taking a haircut for a non nazir?
Its an image thing. A kohen during the times of the beis hamikdash had to have a certain look to him. He had to have certain clothes, he couldn’t be too ugly or aesthetically unappealing by missing an an arm for instance, he also had to have a certain wife. Its a tzurah- a look.
If there is no halachic issue and you want to marry a ger or giyores dont worry about it, you dont need to have that image today its all good. Thats my take.
Im just curious, would you not have married Ruth for your rationale? Then we would not have Dovid Hamelech.
zahavasdad: “Chabad not only accepts them into the community , they marry them”
“”Chabad non-racially mixed Rabbis marry their children to converts from other races?””
???
Newbee, these are issurim d’Oraisa. I’m not saying the reason you give doesn’t have some validity, but it’s not THE reason, and you’re certainly aware that the dinim of who a kohen can’t marry are 100% applicable today.
Daas, besides that fact that I believe a kohen not marrying a giyores is derabanan today, not discussing halacha here, I said that if there is no halachic issue after you talk to your posek (i.e you are a levi for example) then go ahead and marry a giyores.
There is no need to feel bad about it for being “less kodesh” or something of the sort. My take.
I agree with that part. I don’t agree with the implication that we can pinpoint Hashem’s reasoning.
Of course, we can never know the full extent behind mitzvos. What I said is based on the Rambam and others but we cant say this is the absolute reason and we can now act accordingly.
That would take us to a very bad place.
I don’t think the reason the Torah forbids a Kohen from marrying a ger or the majority of BTs is comparable to not eating chometz year-round or not doing melacha on a weekday.
Yes, it’s called Conservative.
Chabad doesnt seem as much concerned with Yichus as others.
Their Rabbinical structure also seems different than other groups, meaning you become a rav when you go out on Shiluchus and start your own chabad house as opposed to others who basically stay put. I am not so familiar with Chabad hirearchy so I cant say for sure, but it does seem that way.
If you ever go to Crown Heights you will see a greater hodge podge of jews from lots of places than almost any where else
“Why do some feel it is less okay to have a dating/marriage partner preference regarding skin color than hair color?”
They are both silly.
Besides, I hardly ever see my wife’s hair. She covers it with a hat or scarf!
I attended the wedding of an African American convert to a white born-Jew a few weeks before Pesach; her daughter, who converted separately, flew in from Israel where she lives with her husband, another white born-Jew.
Joseph, what reason do you think Hashem had which would apply to non kohanim? You also didn’t address tumas meis. Do you also think that applies?
Reform, Conservative, Secular Humanist…..worshiper of Gaia. Plenty to choose from.
A Kohen is more holy than a non-Kohen thus he cannot injure his holiness with tumas meis. A Yisroel doesn’t have that prohibition, since he is less holy than a Kohen, but I think it would be a good idea for a Yisroel to avoid picnicking in a cemetery or to use a cemetery as a shortcut even if it would be longer to go around it. So that example, too, shows that a Yisroel can (and may be best to) avoid a tuma even if it isn’t forbidden to him.
You can marry a reform or conservative (assuming mother is jewish)
you cant marry a Secular Humanist or Worshipper of Gaia (Unless mother is jewish which is less likely)
zahavasdad, its an interesting topic. I know for many chassidim preserving their look is extremely important. I mean they have been wearing the same clothing for literally hundreds of years. I would think this to mean they would want to preserve the color of their offspring as well.
Perhaps there are two social groups within chabad. The ones with yichus dont marry out. And the BTs do not care about race at all.
While I could be wrong, I do not think you will find the kiruv chabad Rabbi marrying his daughters to the BTs he brings in. Which of course could present problems.
Alter Chabad send their children to the Yiddish speaking Chabad yeshiva in CH and generally marry within old time Chabad circles.
Do you have a source for your reason, and for this chumra that a Yisroel or Levi should keep the dinim of a Kohen?
I didn’t say they should. I said they may elect to achieve that higher level of kedusha should they so wish.
Do you have a source for yiur reason, and for this chumra that a Yisroel or Levi should keep the dinim of a Kohen?
Should we ban people from marrying divorcees as well?
“A Kohen is more holy than a non-Kohen”
Many factors go into ones “holiness”.
I think by saying that you are reducing an extremely complex topic to a superficial meaningless level.
A good example of something bad happening today coming from your train of thought would be a non-kohen rejecting the shidduch of a giyores for your reasoning when they could make a great couple.
Such belief and practice will certainly cause needless pain to converts and born Jews alike.
“Do you have a source for yiur reason, and for this chumra that a Yisroel or Levi should keep the dinim of a Kohen?”
I can think of several reasons why a yisroel, levi or chalal should not keep the dinim of a kohen. Especially when it comes to shidduchim.
The only argument I can think of to help Joseph is perhaps a yisroel or levi is really a kohen, he just does not know it. Then why not keep extra? But this cant come at the expense of a mitzvah or hurting others.
One may also elect to davka marry a giyores.
Indeed.
newbee, why can’t a ger be a Rov, is restricted from dayanus and positions of serarah? (S”A CM 7:1, Kiddushin perek daled, Tzitz Eliezer 19:48)?
How can someone hurt short people by seeking to marry someone tall or hurt non-pretty girls by seeking to marry someone pretty or hurt the poor by seeking to marry someone from a family with means or hurt foreigners by seeking to marry someone from their own country or hurt a non-bas talmid chochom by seeking to marry a bas talmid chochom?
Should everyone be as open to marry a divorcee as they are to a previously unmarried, in order not to hurt divorcees?
I know for many chassidim preserving their look is extremely important. I mean they have been wearing the same clothing for literally hundreds of years. I would think this to mean they would want to preserve the color of their offspring as well.
Chabad is very different than other chassidim. The Lubavicher Rebbe was much more modern thinking than others. He embraced many of the newer things in order to spread the word of hashem.
Joseph, it’s incredible how you vacillate between strongly defending adherence to halacha, and then abruptly advocating positions that can only be defined as inventing halacha.
Besides the fact that being a Rabbi today is not sererah in most cases unless he is a dayan….Like I said, because its an optics, societal and political practice that most nations and peoples have historically enforced. It was the tzurah of klal yisroel. The Torah often takes ancient practices and elevates them. Converts and immigrants to other nations historically have been oppressed and abused. Thats why the Torah says we must not oppress converts. Women of other nations historically have been raped during war by the opposing army, thats why we have the mitzvah of yefas toar- to discourage rape.
Similar to why in America one cannot run for president if he is a “ger”. He has to be born here or his mother must be an American citizen if born abroad. The president of the united states is the ultimate position of “serarah”.
I dont care if you personally dont want to date short women, ugly women, divorced women, beautiful women etc.
Its an issue when you start saying its a JEWISH VALUE to not date short women or divorced women and by not dating such women it will ENHANCE YOUR KEDUSHA.
Doing that puts societal pressure on OTHER PEOPLE not to date certain women who they otherwise would be happy to date. And puts artificially constructed societal pressure on women to not date certain men they otherwise would have no problem dating in 2016 United States.
- The topic ‘Shidduchim for Jews of color’ is closed to new replies.