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I recently met a lovely young lady who converted several months ago but has yet to receive shidduchim suggestions due to her race, and that got me thinking about attitudes in the frum world towards Jews of color.
Would you consider dating (or allow your child to date or marry) a Jew who was of a Hispanic, African American or Asian background? If not, why not?
Would you overlook them regardless of their middos and frumkeit?
Would it matter to you how they were Jewish, i.e. a geir vs a BT with a Jewish mother and non-Jewish father or FFB (yes they do exist,Google Avilah McCoy and Shais “MaNishtana” Rishon)?
To the shaddchanim reading this, would you agree to work with a Jew of color?
Would you consider dating (or allow your child to date or marry) a Jew who was of a Hispanic, African American or Asian background? If not, why not?
Were I not already married I would consider it.
The Wolf
Sadly, we had a thread on this about a year ago:
Should the wishes of racist parents that I not date their child be respected?
The Wolf
Unfortunalty many would not date a convert of any kind, even if they were of caucasian.
Id recommend she move to israel. it seems there they are more open to such dating than here in the US
Would you consider dating a Jew who was 6’11” or 4’9″ or a redhead or Buckharian or Moroccan or an out-of-towner or a city slicker or weighs 295 lb. regardless of their middos and frumkeit?
Would it matter to you how they were Jewish, i.e. a Satmar chosid, Modern Orthodox, Lubavitch, Brisk?
Would it make no difference to you whether you marry someone FFB versus a BT?
I’ve seen many married Jews who are converts and/or non Caucasian.
Certainly, right or wrong, it would be difficult to find a shidduch from a “typical” Jewish family, but there are many, many families who don’t fit the “typical” profile and might be very open to the idea.
ZD,
You have not answered the OP’s question.
Which was, would you date (presumably with intention of marriage) a person of a different race than you?
Or, alternatively, would you listen to shidduchim for Zehava which were of a different race than you or her, either a convert or not.
I think most people would be hesitant to go out with someone who just converted a few months ago (even if they would consider a convert in general). People need time to figure themselves out before getting married, and someone who has just converted has probably not figured him/herself out yet.
This is the same reason many people won’t go out with someone who just came back from Yeshivah/Seminary in Israel.
Why do some feel it is less okay to have a dating/marriage partner preference regarding skin color than hair color?
Nishtdaygesheft, I also didn’t answer the OP’s question. It’s a very personal question, and nobody has to answer it, but we can still express opinions and observations.
Come to think of it, you didn’t answer the question either.
I did not make a comment that was intended to be negative about a broad swath of Orthodox Jewry, nor did I attempt to respond to the OPs questions.
However, to answer the OPs question, it is unlikely and for the same reasons that we would not listen to many other suggested shidduchim.
Not only that, I’d even save her from the other shepherds.
He wasn’t attempting to respond to the OP’s question either. Your own response would indicate that his “negative” comment is very much rooted in reality.
SmokedSalmon: There are tons and tons of young FFB girls who complain they don’t get a single date for many many consecutive months.
Joseph, it used to be that in many countries people would not want to hire Jews. Do you think there was something wrong with that? Did it amount to a certain level of persecution?
mdd, would you want to work for someone who hates you and doesn’t want to hire you, but is hiring you because the law requires him to?
The more important question then is why do we feel that way and how can we work on our ahavas Yisroel to fix that.
it’s a complicated question with lots of things to consider. For example, how amenable is the giyores’s family to her conversion and to Jews in general? There has historically (since the ’60s) been a lot of friction between Jews and blacks, for example. Another consideration is politics- most minorities are liberal and most frum Jews are conservative, so that could be a sticking point. Finally, the gap in knowledge could be problematic. The husband will need to step it up and take the bulk of responsibility for raising a talmidei chachomim, sharing divrei Torah at the shabbos table, helping kids with their limudei kodesh homework, etc. Those are big responsibilities that are best shared…
So while I as a single would have no issues going on a date w/ a giyores, I’d be more skeptical of it working out.
My daughter was married the beginning of April. She was born in China and adopted there by Mrs. CTL and I 25 years ago. We live OOT. She attended day school, seminary, College, Law School and is now along with her new husband working in my firm.
She had many shidduch inquiries and race was not an issue. In fact she does not consider herself Asian, but Jewish/White/American. Her husband was not a traditional shidduch date. He was a fellow law student and a non-frum female law professor suggested he ask my daughter out. She chose him over potential matches who wanted a kollel life, but whose families did not object to her race/color.
CTL: Why does she consider herself White not Asian? Why does she need to categorize herself on this count?
Joseph- I’m not sure if it’s sad or funny that a lot of the examples you gave apply to me. What’s wrong with redheads I say?
Anyway, I would definitely let. It’s enough society treats people with hardships as 2nd class for shidduchim, and there we go and do it to all the people who were just born a different color or race. It’s preposterous. Who CARES if she/he is black, hispanic, redhead, blond, tall, short, overweight, has freckles, is a convert, baalei teshuvah as long as they are the right person for you or for your kid.
If ANYONE read the story supplements to both AMI and MISHPACHA over pesach a lot of stories were about shidduchim, and about the kids needs over the parents wants. I grew up OOT without all this shtus. I think it’s so sad people will refuse a shidduch over money, yichus, race, or so on-refusing to even look into if the actual person behind it is compatible to be a wife or husband-not an item being shown off for its beauty by the family he/she marries into nor looked at as simply a color or country.
We really need ahavas yisroel.
And even more so I think, we need to listen to our children-to the kids of today. Why do you think there are so many divorces? Why are kids so miserable? Don’t set them up with someone picture perfect or what you want. I have a very talented, good looking friend with yichus, money and everything and was turned down a few times because she had it all. There were parents who admitted to her that she was just too much for their kid, as their kid wanted someone simpler. On the other hand many people would grab her up without thinking if that’s what their kid needed at all.
Obviously if your boy has low self esteem and although he is short he wishes to be taller than the girl to feel like the man
OR
Your daughter needs all the latest brands and feels she needs someone with money to satisfy her
OR
Your son is just looking for a simple family, no money-but one that has generations of rabbeim that he can learn from and teach his kids about
than that is a NEED for your child. In each scenario the kid will have to give up on having something else, but that is what the child needs. But don’t fool yourself into to non existent needs.
I’m sorry this is so long, but I felt this just had to be said.
In non-traditional shidduch dating like at singles events where singles meet directly , Its more like a convert will be able to meet someone than from a SHadchan (Unfortunatly)
I have to agree with Joseph on the black thing. People usually have race-preferences when it comes to attractiveness; the progressives have just made it really hard to talk about. It’s no different than having a hair or eye color preference as long as it isn’t rooted in racism. The problem is the liberals who like to scream about how everything is rooted in racism.
I’m actually a ger (not black though) and I would prefer to marry FFBs just as much as the next guy. People seem to have this assumption that BTs will fit better with BTs and gers with other gers. But, think about it, this is advocating for two people who don’t know what it’s like to be raised in an observant home to try to raise kids in an observant home. It’s way easier if at least one parent is FFB. I don’t understand being offended when people say they prefer FFBs over gers and BTs; it makes perfect sense to me.
Joseph!
1. Yes, people would rather have a job by such an employer than not to have one. It was especially true in earlier times when having a job meant having bread on the table to survive. SECONDLY, as DY wrote this employer needs to really check his level of ahavas Yirsoel and ahavas Geirim. Are these mitsvos as far as you go?
Neville CB, if one of the parents is indeed an FFB, I am not sure you arer right. If the FFB parent is actually an KFB (krum from birth — born in a frum family, but lacking Yiras Shamaim), you are for sure wrong! And there are many KFBs around. Also, if many people (often times, for krum reasons) “prefer” FFBs, that kills shidduchim for BTs. Paining another Yid not for a valid reason is an aveirah. And how about “closing the door in front of Ba’alei Teshuvah” and placing people at risk of going of the Derech?
mdd, I think you should insist that half your children only marry geirim, and no one else, and the other half only marry BTs, and not consider anyone else in order to reduce the pain of geirim and BTs in shidduchim and help keep them on the derech. Definitely don’t waste any of the marriages on FFBs.
BTW, would you have married a Satmar girl or a MO girl or been happy to marry your daughter to a Lubavitch guy or a DL guy? Are you against considering weight, height, hair color or a girl’s prettiness when considering shidduchim?
Is considering a potential shidduch’s cultural and national background legitimate in your eyes? Does the Torah permit consideration of a potential shidduch’s status as a ben nidda? Would you marry a newly minted BT or newly minted Ger?
Is it okay for an Ashkenazi to want to only marry an Ashkenazi or for a Sephardi to only want to marry a Sephardi?
While it would be foolish in my opinion to outright dismiss a shiduch over race, after the third date or so if it is something that really bothers you (i.e. you want purebred genetic ashkenaz children or whatever) than I think its a valid issue. People want all sorts of superficial things in their spouse- racial and ethnic background is no different than many of the other superficial things people want.
I know all of this is common sense but it doesn’t hurt to repeat it.
The critera for marriage should be more than just Yichus.
The line where this becomes a real moral problem is when people reject the shidduch over race not because of person desire but because of societal pressure and societal stigmas.
Joesph….
She considers herself White/Jewish American because she was raised in that type of family since before she could talk or walk.
There were many American Jews adopting baby girls in China when we did. The China 1 child policy led to many women giving up female babies for adoption hoping to have a male they’d keep.
Daughter had rejected Chinese language lessons as a child (commonly taken by adoptees in America), and until last year never expressed interest in a visit to the land of her birth. I’ve been to China about 20 times on business in the past 35 years.
She did not befriend other Jewish Chinese here in school or summer camp and just considered herself one of the family.
We always joked that when we went to fancy Kosher Chinese restaurants that had Chinese waitstaff that daughter was the one who needed a fork, while parents used chop sticks and mother could order in Chinese.
It’s all about Nature vs. Nuture.
BTW>>>we also have a domestic white adopted daughter who did seek out her birth parents at age 19 and was rejected by them. The Chinese born daughter will never have the opportunity as there were no records kept of these births. They usually took place at home and the babies were left on the step of the orphanage during the night sop the birth mother could not be arrested for violating the one child birth laws.
Our Rav suggested that we never consider a Jewish baby when adopting so the child need not worry about Mamzerus when shidduch time came. Having a child of another race lessens the problem further.
Joseph, I was not advocating affirmative action. I was saying these people should be given fair consideration. I would marry Satmar (if she does not require a lot of chumros) or MO (if Halochically observant). Lubavitch and DL are questions of ideology. I never said there should be no hakpodos at all, Just some are invalid and harmful. And, Joe, remember Dinah bas Ya’akov!
A ben niddah? If he is a real ben niddah, it is a valid ta’anah.
Ashkenazi marrying only Ashkenazi? Not good. Look at the end of Ta’anis, the sugya of TU be’Av. Also, “Pele Yoetz”.
And, lastly, for sure, I would not want to marry a girl with your attitude!
I am sure many would not have let their sons marry Ruth or Naama
CT, it’s not entirely about identity. Some people find the Chinese less attractive, some find them more attractive just as with hair color or any other preference. Assimilating into western culture doesn’t change your appearance.
ZD: I heard Aharon haKohen himself wouldn’t have let his sons marry Ruth 😉
Mdd:
“I would marry Satmar (if she does not require a lot of chumros) or MO (if Halochically observant).”
In other words, no to both.
“Ashkenazi marrying only Ashkenazi? Not good.”
Yes, and there you have it: Ashkenaz marrying only Ashkenaz bad, Sfard marrying only Sfard fine. FFB marrying only FFB bad, BT marrying only BT fine. Further showing that even within Judaism we have our own political correctness code full of double standards just like in the rest of the world.
And, why does everyone feel the need to champion the cause of converts being “discriminated against” in shidduchim?
We gerim don’t care! It’s an understandable rationale. Yes it makes shidduchim harder for BTs and gers, but we can’t blame the individuals, and it has nothing to do with racism.
Neville, I am outraged! I meant that Sefard marrying only Sedard is also not OK. Same goes for BTs only with BTs. It is obvious from the sources and the whole context.I expect an apology.
Also can it just be that you and Joe is one and the same person? I suspect very strongly that you are not a Ger.
Joe and Neville, would you allow your daughter to marry Rabi Akiva?
Also, Neville, we are commanded concerning ahavas ha’Geirim very strongly (ke’ahavas SHmo) and prohibited from oppressing them. Hence people trying to defend them. Do you care about these mitsvos?
(Again, I believe you are no Ger.)
If boys from Meah Shearim or Williamsburg, who never saw a TV or heard a radio or read a secular newspaper, didn’t tell the shadchan that they won’t consider a BT or Ger, who virtually all are familiar with pop culture if not much much more and grew up secular, you’d have divorces r”l before Shana Rishona was over due to major cultural clashes between the spouses.
Same with a Brisker boy marrying a Bukharian girl or a real Yerushalmi marrying a girl from the Lower East Side.
An Ashkenazi seeking to marry an Ashkenazi or a Sephardi seeking to marry a Sephardi is doubly okay. Firstly, it is legitimate to seek a spouse with the same general minhagim as yourself, so you need not change your minhagim. Secondly, there are cultural differences between them that may not be easily adjustable and can cause great tensions.
If hair color or height is a legitimate consideration, the above are certainly far more legitimate considerations.
I am not on shidduchim yet, but it is something I’ve thought about.
Basically, I’m open to anyone, as long as they fit what I’m looking for. Obviously, I need to be attracted to them(I’m not looking for supermodels), and the other character traits that I need to click with. If the girl who I feel is right for me is sfardi, chassidic, or of a different race, I don’t care.
As I stated before, you must look at the kids needs. If your child is very attached to her minhagim than she shouldn’t marry an ashkenaz if she is sefardi. That is a need for her. But to tell your daughter not to marry an ashkenaz because he will be different and it’s just not for you is riduculous. We are all Jews.
Pretty is the eye of the beholder and society shoves down our throat this image what beautiful means. Just because someone looks different from you does not mean they are not pretty. It may be hard to see at first because wee all been brainwashed to think pretty = ___________. But why can’t you give it a try?
Don’t just dismiss anyone that has the right middos and sounds like a PERSON meant for your child. Whatever his/her background, race, color, weighth, or heigth may be-just try it.
Most people from differnet backround who get married work out their differneces its just takes compromise. If you are willing to work things out a marriage to a Satmar or a convert will work out fine. However if you are not willing to work out compromises neither will work
Joseph, how about a Sefardi girl who grew up in America, in an Ashkenazi Beis Ya’akov who is ready to follow Ashkenazi minhagim if the husbans is an Ashkenazi who gets rejected out off hand because she’s Sefardi?
Generally speaking, if both spouses have middos tovos it can work out even if they come from different backgrounds. If they don’t have the middos, then even if they are from totally the same background, there will be problems.
Also, Joe, a most important principle: if there is room in the heart, there is room in the house.
Once it becomes common to have black Rabbis and black people in positions of kavod and authority within the Jewish orthodox community, when the typical Young Israel is no longer composed of 95% white people, then it will no longer be a big deal to marry someone of a different race since it will be common.
People naturally dont like to stick out and want to fit in within their community norms.
Maybe they should start a Young Israel somewhere that has a moderate to large mix race percentage of families. Then it wont be a big deal anymore for the children of that community to marry other mix raced couples.
Think about it, ashkenazim dont like to change the color or texture of their gefilta fish since thats the way it looked back in the old country of galicia. Kal vechomer to change the color and texture of their own children.
You can find more jews of color in Crown Heights and Lincoln Square Synagouge.
They tend to be more accepted there
Neville,
Our daughter does’t look typical Chinese. She is 5’9″ tall with a body that developed based on American Jewish diet, not a Chinese diet. She was always well bronzed from the sun and before marriage long wavy black hair. If you saw her in a Chanel or Dior Power Suit and pumps, walking into court you’d not think of her as anything but American, only Chinese usually pick her out by birth nationality/race
“They tend to be more accepted there”
They are accepted everywhere. Its marrying them and changing the color of your children to a different color from the old country that is what many people dont wish to do.
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