- This topic has 258 replies, 81 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
I just read an article about this on Psychology today’s website. It was called “The truth about beauty”.
I am not posting a link, since the images on the story are pretty bad.
But, it was written by a woman for a women audience, so the women here may want to take a look.
popa,
SERIOUSLY??? You think that an article in a completely disgusting goyish PSYCHOLOGY magazine is gonna help your argument??
If anything it just proves my point that this way of thinking comes directly from the goyim!! if you tried, you probably won’t be able to find a group with more corrupt and twisted values.
yeshivaguy-Yeah girls come home from seminary off this planet but they all eventually settle down to be their own person. i don’t remember who said it but s/1 said they don’t like BJJ kids. I know s/1 who went to BJJ and they always say it was such a mix-girls from PPY to Bais Rochel Monsey and OOTers from France, Switzerland… They all came home in the skies and eventually turned into their own person and took the hashkafos their own way.
Poppa-You’ve got a lot to learn. Every BY girl is her own person. Just because a school wants to make them a certain type it doesn’t mean they aren’t their own. Yes, many are the same type but among the same type there are trllions of diff. types. YOU CANNOT CATAGORIZE ALL BY GIRLS TOGETHER! Plus all BY schools are slightly different in different places.
Pumper: Do you really mistrust anything that comes from a “goyish psychologist”?
mischiefmaker: I agree. I just wanted to point out that the schools try to make them all the same.
I never said that everything a psychologist said is false. Having said that, yes, I think that it is important to “mistrust” things that come from completely goyish sources, many of whom are atheists and the lowest of the low, in terms of morality.
I am sure I don’t have to tell you that immorality is the core of many psychological theories.
There is a major problem with creating a ‘beauty/attractive standard’ Attraction is subjective. I know a few young women who are very heavy, who got married at 19, and I know young women who are a size zero, and at 28, are not married. Attraction is important on both sides. It’s not fair to generalize schools or people. Ask yourself, why do fat people bother you? I know attraction to the opposite gender is not something yeshivos and seminaries may discuss, and that could be why we get our ideas from Barbie and Disney cartoons. Health is crucial, but it’s important to do good things for yourself, and not only for someone else. Hashem gave you a wonderful body, no matter what shape, and it’s important to take care of it.
I don’t think attraction is subjective.
If it was subjective, then we wouldn’t find so many people looking for the same features. Beauty is indeed, not in the eye of the beholder.
Men are attracted to health. That is why in societies where there is not enough food, they are attracted to heavier women, and in societies where there is a lot of food, they are attracted to lighter women.
Women are attracted to good providers. That is why they look for physical strength, height, and money.
if [frum] men were attracted to health, then there wouldnt be a problem with bais yaakov girls and eating diorders.
Pet peeve:
??? ?????? ????.
A. Men are attracted to health, but not to objective health. If we were attracted to objective health, then you would find the same standards across cultures. Rather, men are attracted to the general things which are healthy in each society. In out society, obesity is a greater concern than malnutrition.
B. Girls don’t develop eating disorders to get dates. They develop them because of poor self image, most often caused by their parents not accepting them as individuals, but imposing standards on them. (Like imagine a mother telling a daughter that she needs to be thin for shidduchim. The problem is the mother, not the shidduchim.)
PBA, if your reasoning is correct, then those who are married to people who are ‘unattractive’ according to the standard where they live, their marriages lack feelings for each other in that way, and if they move somewhere where the standards of beauty are different, that might change, because according to your reasoning all humans are insecure and need to look like the next person. You must be a fan of Aldous Huxley. People who are insecure (which the more I see, the more people I find who are insecure- that I agree with you)and therefore cannot decide what is beautiful. Is this what you are saying?
Also, about eating disorders, that may be the root. or circumstances that can cause the possibilty of an eating disorder to surface, but eating disorders are almost encouraged when young women are in shidduchim.
No, that is not what I’m saying. It has nothing to do with insecurity.
Then are you saying that people cannot form their own opinions? We all just want to be copies of each other, just because? Why do you think that people cannot decide what ‘turns’ him or her on, and that society has to tell us? Just trying to understand your arguments.
I’m not saying that either.
And I’m not making arguments. I’m stating an observation of fact which is supported by scientists in this field.
I’m not really sure where I was unclear. I don’t have anything to add to what I said before.
I’m not saying this has anything to do with society. It has to do with what is healthy in a particular part of the world. This is built into people, just as it is built into all creatures.
PBA: Interesting theories. One gets the feeling you have sisters.
Let’s all dance around using the term, “evolutionary theory”, shall we. However, that is essentially what we’re discussing. In Torah terms, we could say that Hashem gave us a Yetzer that tries to make for the healthiest next generation possible.
this thread started out pretty okay – with people understanding what the OP was saying and answering her, sympathetically, but then it changed and left a bad taste in many of the girls’ mouths.
now, changing a thread and philosophizing and telling everyone what kind of figure you prefer may be interesting, but in this thread it’s hurtful. The girl is crying because she’s terrified no one will ever want to marry her because her body is simply not skinny. She is a wonderful girl, has great middos, but she is scared.
now, some guys comfortedly told her that they and not all guys will marry only skinny girls. sure, some or a lot (as you guys claim) prefer thin girls – but so what? why say that here? why be hurtful? she just wants to know if her bashert will like her because of who she is? and the answer is a resounding yes!
and for people to say stupidities like girls don’t realize that people find slim more attractive is foolishness beyond belief. we are being raised in a sick society – that worships externals and the anorexic look. we girls are brought up in that society. i have never met a girl who didn’t want to be slim. for some, it’s not that difficult. for others, due to their body type, metabolism, medication, insulin, etc. they’re taking – it’s very, very difficult to do so – unless they would exercise for hours and have a personal chef to make their meals. that should not be the focus of these wonderful girls. they know already that it’s important to look nice – so they will learn how to put on makeup attractively and wear clothes that are right for them, but to make it sound that a girl has to be so slim to get married, is disgusting and not true.
imagine if a boy wrote in that he was skinny 5’4″, 5’5″ – and he was afraid no girl would want him. would it be kind and sensitive to write that studies show that girls prefer strong, muscular, tall men – whether it’s true or not, it is irrelevant and hurtful! there is nothing he can do about it (sure, he can take steroids and exercise for hours to build himself up, but that is not where a ben torah should be focusing his time.) the point is not to tell him to exercise, but to tell him truthfully that everyone has their bashert, and that the older single boys are made up of all shapes and sizes.
sorry for the rant. 😉
mw – i’ll answer you on a different thread where you addressed the same issue.
bina:
For that reason, I didn’t mention that for the first 150 posts. This thread is now up to 168; I figure after 168 posts, the thread is allowed to sidetrack.
bina:
Also, if a boy wrote in complaining he was too skinny, you wouldn’t advise him to put on a few pounds?
this should not be only about shidduchim. it should be lifestyle and lifetime habits.
i for one blew my diet out of the universe and need to get back on track. we should all strive to eat healthier and exercise more. its best for us in the long run.
now i need to read and re read this over and over and hopefully it will sink in.
pba: i noticed that you waited till you started talking about it, and normally i’m all for getting off the topic, just in this case, i was afraid it was too hurtful (and it wasn’t just you i was complaining against).
i don’t even mind discussing what you wrote, but just on a different thread. (i’m all for philosophy and psychology – didn’t have a chance to read the original article yet).
and it’s not so easy for a very skinny guy to put on weight either – only real way is to work out with weights. (i know – i’m married to an extremely skinny guy who actually gets insulted if someone tells him he’s thin – he’d love to put on weight healthily) it would require tremendous effort. but in this case, if you would re-read the OP, she wrote that she is trying to lose some weight, but she’s just not gonna be slim.
ilovetheholyland – i did it for you and coffeefan and all other girls on this thread. please don’t give up – save your tears for asking Hashem to get you a fantastic, ba’al middos guy, and may you soon get your yehoshua, and please let us know when you do.
binahyeseira:
I completely agree that is is deeply regrettable that this thread took such a turn, and I fully understand why many find it hurtful.
However, I’d like to point out that,IMHO, you missed a step in this thread’s history. At the beginning, during the sympathizing phase, some girls wrote posts blaming the boys. This understandably led to the boys defending themselves.
“mw – i’ll answer you on a different thread where you addressed the same issue.”
Answer what issue?
you asked me a question on a very funny shidduch story – i just replied to you there – 2 seconds ago.
ok, i’ll re-read the posts – maybe, i missed that.
now, changing a thread and philosophizing and telling everyone what kind of figure you prefer may be interesting, but in this thread it’s hurtful. The girl is crying because she’s terrified no one will ever want to marry her because her body is simply not skinny. She is a wonderful girl, has great middos, but she is scared.
Sorry Bina, it really is a boy’s market. As long at that stands, the girls will have to conform with what boys want.
To quote:
Some (very few) boys think:
Most will judge by size. And that is where we fail. Deal with what is, not with what you want things to be.
popa_bar…the point wasn’t that it was getting sidetracked into other subjects. What Binah was saying is that it was a thread where we were “helping” others & then it sidetracked into “hurting” others.
And, telling a boy to gain or lose weight is not the same as telling a girl that. Girls are much more sensitive in this type of area; telling a girl that she is ugly is like telling a guy that he will never be succesful in his studies and/or career.
However, if you tell a guy that he is ugly & a girl that she won’t be succesful in her studies and/or career, then it’s just not the same….Popa_bar, I know that you understand that, but the teen boys (I assume they are, anyway) that write some of the comments on here are being way too harsh & don’t understand the issues of women’s feelings. Some of these guys don’t think that it’s a big deal to throw out these hurtful opinions.
MW13, some of the “boys” were not being defensive, they were being offensive.
To be defensive is to say, “I am entitled to my opinion & there is no reason that I have to change my opinion in what I prefer.” Some of the guys did that, but others began straight out attacking.
i havent been keeping up with this thread but popa u make a lot of generalizations which often times are not very accurate but definitely have some truth to them.
a few people at the hotel i was at for pesach asked me what type of guy i was looking for and i described it and then i said he hasta be a football player (not nfl literally but to look like one lol) and they were like omg really…?!? my friends all want scrawny guys which i think is so gross altho i have dated a few who looked manerexic….anyways my point is that altho some people want scrawny guys others want muscles :))
Ok, I hear.
binahyeseira:
Oh, I get what you’re saying now… thought you meant something I had said on this thread.
TikkunHatzot:
“MW13, some of the “boys” were not being defensive, they were being offensive. To be defensive is to say, “I am entitled to my opinion & there is no reason that I have to change my opinion in what I prefer.” Some of the guys did that, but others began straight out attacking.”
Yes, they were attacking the notion that this is all the boys’ fault. That’s defense (albeit aggressive defense) in my book.
Hey I just wanted to put my two cents for I am guy in shidduchim. I never ask for the girls picture and even if do know how the girl looks like. I give the girl a chance because attraction has nothing to do with looks.
Lightuptheworld, I wouldn’t say that it has NOTHING to do with the looks.
But I would say that the attraction can change very rapidly if you decide you like the person after getting to know them. Even though their looks remained the same.
binahyeseira- granted its shayich some of these comments could be perceived as “hurtful” but that’s the beauty of the CR is that its not personal- & the truth is easier to convey in these circumstances. That said, condoning the notion that “she just wants to know if her bashert will like her because of who she is?” & “that should not be the focus of these wonderful girls” is dangerously misguided. True a girl should and can expect that her “bashert” will like her i.e. her personality and non-physical attributes. However, to presume a guy, even her “bashert” to like/ be attracted to a girl who doesn’t do her due diligence to be attractive is preposterous! Perhaps the “bashert” should also be attracted to her without make up, wearing her shlumpiest clothing too?! Clearly there is something called “hishtadlus” and presupposing that A. most guys are attracted to thin girls, & B. it is within her ability than to be “thin”- than it would seem to fall under that umbrella. Granted if “metabolism, medication, insulin, etc.” prevented success hishtadlus wouldn’t require that result.
A few points that should be obvious, but don’t seem to be!
1) Most girls of shidduchim age do try to be as attractive as possible. However not everyone is built the same way, and not everyone can be super thin! There are many medical reasons besides the few mentioned that prevent girls from being a size 6 or below, and even perfectly healthy women come in various sizes. Being heavy is NOT an automatic indication that one doesn’t care about how she looks, or one does not have self control, or is not healthy enough. Two individuals who eat the same food and exercise equivalent amounts may look very different. The judgmental tone of so many posters is very disturbing.
2) Body shape changes throughout life for everyone, and especially for women having kids. A previous poster discussed her experience loosing weight with her pregnancies, and actually that is not so uncommon (I had the same experience and researched it a bit). Actually heavy women as a whole gain significantly less weight during pregnancy than very thin ones. A woman’s body is programed to store fat during pregnancy (specifically on her hips) in order to provide nutrient sources while nursing. Someone who already has those stores tends not to store as much new fat as others. Just like the poster, I lost weight in the initial stages of my pregnancies, and then gained back only a bit more then I lost, which was less than the weight of my babies! Of course the genetic and metabolic factors that enabled a woman to be super skinny to begin with may work in her favor and help her loose the baby weight faster, too. Bottom line is to keep this weight concept in perspective: it is a very superficial characteristic of a girl, and a transient one at that!
Granted if “metabolism, medication, insulin, etc.” prevented success hishtadlus wouldn’t require that result.
if you re-read her OP, it would appear that that is the case and that she is doing her hishtadlus in this area. 2nd of all, the next person who wrote writes a lot on the diabetes thread, and she too is very disturbed by her difficulty in losing weight and fear of not finding her shidduch because of that.
actually, if read the diabetes thread, ’tis a little scary. seems like at least one girl has gone or has contemplated going without her insulin just so she can lose weight.
i don’t know if you can imagine what a sick world, us girls live in.
i have a friend who i can only see once every few years. every single time i see her, almost the first words out of her mouth is that she is on some medication or something that causes her to keep some added, unwanted pounds on. i truly couldn’t care less if she weighs 10 pounds less or not, but it obviously bothers her tremendously. (AND SHE IS NOT ABNORMAL – SHE IS SOOOOO TYPICAL!)
another person i know who is a size 2 already, who is not anorexic, non-stops talks about how she’s been bad with her eating and how much she has to exercise, for as she’s getting older, she’s getting a little heavier. (as stated before, she’s still a size 2!)
this is normal girl/woman conversation – so having men remind women of how thinness is worshipped in this society, does NOT help; it only hurts.
To the OP (if you’re still reading!), and those like her:
I was always on the heavy side and got married at age 20, B”H. There are plenty of guys out there looking for more than weight, and even many who find girls attractive even when they are not skinny.
In Malky Feig’s Mountain Climbers 2 she has a beautiful mashal (discussed with regards to someone having difficulty in shidduchim due to a medical issue). Basically, when you are doing a puzzle the easiest piece to match is the corner piece because it has 2 straight sides and less options to match it to. Shouldn’t having more options make it easier to match up? The answer is that when you want to “choose” something, having more options is better as it gives you more choices. But if you want to “find” a specific thing, less choices narrows the field and makes it easier. We are not trying to “choose” a shidduch. We are trying to “find” the one specific individual who is right for us. If you have less choices due to circumstances that Hashem put you in, He is making it easier for you to find the right one by narrowing down the ones you must sort through until you find him! When he does come along, he will be attracted to the way Hashem made you! (Obviously we have to do reasonable hishtadlus, but it seems clear from your post that you are doing that.)
May you all be zoche to find him quickly!
I went out with a Girl who’s friend said she was size 12, my mom told me that is Normal.
I went out thinking that and got Married.
She tells me now, she was actually size 14 at the time.
After having a baby she worked out and lost tons of weight though and now she is considered Slim.
So if you like the Girl or Boy, ignore their girth and Daven (+Pay for their Gym Subscription) that they should lose weight after the Chasuna.
yellow-esrog- i like ur atitude!!!
mazal tov on ur wedding!!! lol
another person i know who is a size 2 already, who is not anorexic, non-stops talks about how she’s been bad with her eating and how much she has to exercise, for as she’s getting older, she’s getting a little heavier. (as stated before, she’s still a size 2!)
What makes you call that not anorexic?
pba – because she’s healthy enough to have had a number of children. she is very small, so it’s not like a size 2 in someone of more ave. height. and she still completely functions normally. and she’s been like this for more than 15 years. and, unfortunately, so many people i know are somewhat like this (even if they’re overweight, they’re just as obsessed on what they ate, how much they weigh, etc.)
i agree with what you are all saying. I am ALSO a 20 yr old BY girl in shidduchim and im also a L XL- and to all those girls that have been hurt by these boys i tell u this: a) i feel ur pain b) dont let it affect u- u need to have confidence and show that your weight does not define you- it makes u who u r- (more 2 love).
Im telling u it works- if you carry yourself with confidence and self respect the guys LIKE that and they done even notice it…and if they do…well. thats theyre flaw…(and vice versa- if u complain about ur look/ weight and show u x feel comfortable..wich is understandable- they WILL NOTICE THAT Too…I say FAKE IT 2 MAKE IT) you cant change the way they look @ you but you can change the way you feel about yourself…hatzlacha to all my girls out there!!
#1 wow hard situation
#2 i tried pilates they really worked they were devised by joseph pilates in order to keep his soldiers in shape without a lot of time
#3 if the guy cant see past your weight to your shining personality
ITS THE WRONG GUY
they were devised by joseph pilates
How very interesting…
This thread is terrific. I just “cntl+F”-ed through the first 3 pages looking for “popa,” and it was excellent reading. The 4th page got too serious, though.
popa- anorexia is when the subject starves themselves and obssesses over the fact that they are fat even if they are not. they wear baggy and unattractive clothing because they feel they are fat and ugly!!!!!! its not just simply watching what you eat- which in the case above sounds like its fine that she’s watching what she eats- its completely natural for her to want to do that!
What’s better intelligence and average-ugly looks OR Ultra pretty, slim girl with moderate, little or no brains????
personally I’d rather the intelligence over the ultra thin pretty girl. You can’t emotionally relate to someone that you are not itellectually on par with.
more:
“What’s better intelligence and average-ugly looks OR Ultra pretty, slim girl with moderate, little or no brains????
personally I’d rather the intelligence over the ultra thin pretty girl. You can’t emotionally relate to someone that you are not itellectually on par with.”
You would think it would be intelligence + Average looks (& who said that has to be ugly?) but unfortunately it seems that looks win more often than not.
Wear makeup and find out what looks good on you, have confidence in the way you look!
Don’t worry about it too much. The right person will love you as you are.
Of course looks wins over intelligence. You can always talk to intelligent people that you are not married to. You can’t be looking at attractive people you aren’t married to.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.