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There was once a topic about segulas, suddenly, AZ popped up and started talking about age gap, using such methods as negative proofs and skewed statistics. It got so bad that the moderators of thsi site shut the thread and banned the continuation of the discussion (if you don’t believe me, have a look)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shidduch-segullah/page/11#post-69580
AZ was not heard from again.
Suddenly, you post about how it appears that there are some older singles who are not doing themselves favors with how they behave on a date. The FIRST person to respond to you was our AZ, who was gone without a trace for weeks.
Even weirder is how quickly you, AZOI.IS move from your initiated discussion of “I think some people are behaving aand thinking in a way that prevents them from getting married, because deep down they really don’t want to get married. It’s their subconscious tactic to stay single” into riding the age gap train. You then go as far as to confront Jax, a teenager, and you ask Jax if he has set up a 22+ girl tonight.
Like my boy tells me; if it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it is a rat.
proud tatty,
I hope you don’t think I’m another form of AZ (bemuzed?) but despite my very layman’s knowledge of the issue, why do you seem so angry? Did AZ perpetrate some personal avlah on you?
There have been so many threads “hijacked” by inane or barely tangential topics, and never have I seen such anger. What is going on?
I invite you to read all the posts on that previous topic. That will give you a glimpse into my anger.
This just all turned into a perfect lob for AZ quite quickly. Shame we moved away from the fact that people’s actions might be preventing them from getting married (and how can we fix this) into this flavor of the month.
Why must any discussion about difficulties in shidduchim be turned into “the ONLY issue is the age gap”
OP had nothing to do with gap, it had all to do with maturity, being realistic, and showing one cares. Where on earth does age gap come into play.
proud tatty- i am not sure on which side you say the immaturity comes from, but if it is from the women’s side, i can understand. maybe what needs to be done is have women really consider what marriage is all about. It isnt the fairytale life that the wedding seems to portray. marriage is a serious commitment and we rush our daughters into it too quickly for them to understand what they are doing. before we sign any business deal or contract we carefully consider the repercussions and pros/cons. why before we marry off our children do we not always do the same?
here, proud, try this: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anger-management-group-therapy
The YWN coffee room: something for everyone! I will not charge for this snappy slogan :).
Proud Tatty:
Since you are so interested in where I was all these months. Here’s the answer. I actually have a life and have very little interest in the general goings on in the cr.
However, I am commited to raising awareness about the seriousness of the age gap issue and how that has resulted in a (unwittingly) community wide self created shidduch crisis of hundreds and hundreds of girls never getting married and never having children. To this end I monitor various media outlets such as the cr and look for opportunities to bring attention to this issue.
No, I don’t have children in shidduchim.
If there is something that bothers you (or your friendly mods) about the fact that there are actually concerned members of klal yisroel who have been made aware of the obvious problem and are trying to alleviate it, please explain.
BYTW, B”H the efforts of some of these concerned members of klal yisroel have clearly begun to yield fruit, (see the NASI Project).
Havesomeseichel (please), what about the boys?? By your logic they shouldn’t want to get married till 30. Why aren’t they scared about marriage, and it not being a fairy tale and all that? Is it because they won’t have to worry about how to carry out their responsibilities for x number of years? What is going on in this world??
Havesomeseichel, the divorce rate is not climbing because people are getting married younger. The divorce rate is climbing primarily because it is more acceptable to be divorced now than 15 or 20 years ago. There were plenty of people trapped in bad marriages who didn’t want to leave because of the stigma.
The question is really how do we prepare men and women for marriage better?
In my opinion, these are some important things that men/women should do before dating for marriage:
1) Have a career plan. Figure out how you are going to support your family and get started on that goal. That doesnt mean having your MBA before dating, just that you should know what career you are aiming for and how you are going to get there. In this day and age, its important for BOTH parties to have a plan. Single income families are rare nowadays.
2) Know basic economics. Know how to take care of basic finances. Learn that if you only have $20, you shouldn’t be spending $30 or spending the $20 on something foolish. Learn how much groceries generally cost, what electricity, rent, car insurance and other basic expenses cost.
3) Understand that marriage is a committment that takes time and effort. Understand that some nights you want to come home and ignore the world, but you will still have a spouse there who needs love and attention.
4) Understand that marriage takes compromise.
5) Learn what YOU want out of life, not what your parents, family, friends expect you to have in life. Make sure this falls within the bounds of halacha and then choose your own path. When you get married, your parents no longer “control” you (for lack of a better term – good parents never really attempt to control their kids).
6) Don’t get married to escape your family (sadly, I know quite a few cases of this. Some work out, some end up with 4 kids under six and divorced at 28).
OK, I’m kind of veering off into a rant so I’ll stop.
OK, I am about to offer my two cents, and do so with trepidation,because I have learned a lesson here in recent weeks – there is an incredible lack of tolerance and derech eretz for a view which might differ (even GREATLY) with some folks’ personal hashkafas.
I think the view that castigates someone for trying to help older singles to reach out to each other rather than have the guys looking for younger shidduchim, is very rude and unhelpful. I do not personally know Az or AZOI.IS or any other poster in the CR (at least, not to my knowledge). But I do know that unless I have seriously misunderstood his intent and misjudged his meaning (which I grant is a possibility, none of us is perfect), he has not said anything to raise the uproar that I have read here.
We HAVE a terrible shidduch crisis with our older children – it is a crisis that reaches throughout the frum world. I personally believe we made this crisis ourselves by refusing to acknowledge that it is unnatural for the genders to be separated early on in life, not be allowed to talk to each other while growing up, and then suddenly at ther magic age of whatever, be thrust into a shidduch process for which they are neither equipped, nor sufficiently mature. Our older singles are not being redt enough shidduchim. Yes, there may be some older people who do not want to get married, there is such a thing as that, and they have issues, clearly. But the majority of older singles want VERY much to be married and start their families, and it is excruciatingly painful to them when they see their younger siblings getting married, or see younger girls redt to older boys. That is not to say that the older boy is not the right husband for the younger girl, but it still is painful that there is no sensitivity to this fact.
Whether or not one agrees with AZ’s observations (sometimes I do, and sometimes I do not), the point made should not be scoffed. In fact NO one’s comments should be derided or insulted, even the one’s made by those same judgmental and sarcastic people. It is very easy and way more menschlech to say, “I disagree,” and not attack someone because he holds a different opinion from your own. Who is to say your opinion is more choshuv than his? Hashem is the Arbiter, not we. And given the fact the kovod habrios and mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro are so high on His list of must-dos, it would behoove some of the posters here to stop being so judgmental every five minutes and actually LISTEN to what someone is saying, whether or not you agree with his words. Sorry to go a teensy bit off-topic, but it really isn’t off-topic, as the topic seems to be “how can we insult a poster in the CR?” Just because we are all anonymous and can say virtually what we want (minus the mods’ running interference), does not mean we are allowed to drop minimum standards of v’ahavta l’reiyacha kamocha.
Mrs. tzippi:
You are a woman. You CAN not understand.
havesomeseichel:
Its not the girls, its Sem & High school, which treats marriage like a fairy tale (marry your Bashert Kollel Boy, and live in EY/Lakewood with no worries, no responsibilities, happily ever after)
SJSinNYC- your comments are not ranting and are pure wisdom that should be spread to all seminary and high school teachers. I am not joking.
gavra_at_work- and who is allowing that kind of nonsense into their heads? where are all these “girls” coming from? high school and sem! Be a responsible parent and find out what they are learning in school and balance it with a good dose of reality! pick a school that teaches about real life! I now pronounce the new name of (wherever you live) as LAKEWOOD. now they can live where it is best for the family and finances and it doesnt have to be lakewood. not everyone can live there or should live there. or it will be the next brooklyn and no different either! take your daughters with you while you go grocery shopping and show them prices. how much you spend on rent, gas, electricity, water (some areas make you pay for this separately), transportation, clothes ect. show what likely income will be. have them cook dinner for your family and see what it is like. dont allow them to have unreal fantasies.
ok, i will stop ranting right now…
havesomeseichel:
It means stating the dreaded word of two letters to one’s child, Oh Horrors! (and worse, the conviction to stick to it!)
It shalt not be stated here. I will just say it starts with an “N” and ends with an “O”.
It is the solution to many problems, but only few know of its secrets. It is passed down, generation to generation, parent to child. Only those of strong will and mind can use it, but if used correctly, it can cause a great boon to be placed on both the user and whom it is used on.
My apologies again for perpetuating the hijacking of this thread but there’s something I don’t get (and GAW, please help me out here, I am a woman, but a mother of boys so if there’s something that will help me help them, seriously, let me know). Everyone is focused on the girls – why rush, get established in your careers (I just LOVE that one ;-), get a grip on what real life’s all about.
What kind of chinuch are we giving our boys and young men to prepare THEM for marriage? Why is it in their interests to start shidduchim even YOUNGER, by all this logic? If I were a boy, my thinking would be, to reach my goals I need a certain amount of distraction-free learning. Unless my shver puts a large amount in escrow, I can’t depend on anything. My wife may need or want to reduce her hours, there may be some pregnancy complications, who knows? And it’s very possible my bashert’s father may not have the large amount to put in escrow. Boy, I have to be prepared for any possibility – moving to a kollel across the world, learning a trade (could be klei kodesh) – when I get married. I think I’d like to get some a good few years of deep learning, be in a position to move to whatever yeshiva I will see will best help me on my way. I’m not going to start going out till I’m at least 23, maybe older.
Please, someone out there has to be able to help me get this.
Havesomeseichel, thank you.
As for schools – even in my modern orthodox high school (its more to the right than most MO schools, but still mainly MO) preached a lot about marrying a learning guy. It wasn’t exclusive, but to a certain extent it was shoved down our throats. Ironic when you realize that they also taught basic taharat hamishpacha in 12th grade because they knew this was the last chance for Jewish education for some of the grade…(we did have 1 girl who wasn’t frum at all and a couple on the cusp). There is sort of nowhere to turn school wise. I wonder if home-schooling will start up again…I know that I don’t really agree with any of the schools in my area and its going to be more of a “what works best” rather than “what is ideal.”
GAW, I agree that its the most underused expression by some parents!
Tzippi, I agree that the men need to be prepared as well as the women. I included them in my post…
There is nothing wrong with a man waiting until 23 to start dating. No one should start dating before they are ready AND know what they are getting into.
Mrs. Tzippi:
I thought you may want to continue on this line of thought. I will point you to the Kemorah in Keddushin 29B bottom in regards to Rav Chisda. (Its good to just quote gemorahs that just say the stuff that would (probably) be blocked) If you wish to discuss this issue further, please start a new thread, as it has nothing to do with the OP.
tzippi- if the men would not start to go out until mid twenties, then we would have the best of both worlds! We would solve the “age gap” as many people complain about. we would give both the men and the women time to mature. just as long as those 23+ boys arent marrying the 18/19 year olds.
what is wrong with letting the women get a career? there are not enough teaching jobs, many schools require a degree in teaching, and there are not that many kids needing special ed and speech therapy! the women need a job that can help to contribute to family earnings so that they can save for when she wont be able to work and raises a family.
my last post didnt come through, so I am going to edit and rephrase it in case something is objectionable.
1)by having men wait then the older women will be able to find someone (statistically) as long as the older men dont take 18 year olds
2) what is wrong having women get a real job? there are not enough teaching positions, those you can find dont pay well, every child does not need speech therapy and the way it seems is that there will be one child for every therapist and no more, and while special ed is needed, they dont need that many special ed teachers.
3) why count on father in laws? sometimes they cant pay, with the economy the way it is, they can pay today and tomorrow be out of a job. dont count on it! find a way to make money without counting on the in laws! i know great girls who cant get a shidduch because of money- how sad is that! get a job yourself!
Now for some tangible effective practical suggestions how to encourage more shidduchim between boys 22.5 – girls 21, and fewer 23-19
Presently the average age of boys returning from learning in yeshivish stlye yeshivos Mir, Brisk, Rav Zvi Kaplan etc. is 22.5 with many first returning at 23+.
1. If yeshivos would set a age limit on returning boys from EY. Starting with a cutoff of 23 and slowly moving down to 22.5. It would create a situation were boys are starting to date 6 months younger.
2. (In yeshivos were boys are not allowed to date when they first come)
If come Tu B’shvat/Tamuz boys are only permitted to date girls 21 and older, and to date younger girls a boy must wait till after the zeman, then boys will have a strong incentive to date girls their own age.
3. Do not redd shidduchim to girls who are just coming home from sem. There are plenty of girls 20-24 that will have all the qualities that THAT boy needs.
The net result of such actions will be far greater close in age shidduchim without any real major change to the system as is.
Any one who feels there are other problems w/ the system so be it. However regarding the CRISIS as it relates to girls being agunos, it begins and ends with AGE GAP.
Lets get to work on closing the age gap without any ridiculous radical changes thta will never happen
Guess you (mods) wouldn’t let the (Marre Makom) Gemorah in?
Mrs. Tzippi:
One should not tell a boy not to get married (as a general Klall). If you need More Understanding, ask your Rav.
AZOI.IS:
Ah, yes very well said.
The obvious answer is why are you sending your children to these schools and expecting NOT to support them, if thats what they get from the schools!
The non-obvious (and by default) answer is “too bad. At this point, deal with what you’ve got”.
Or if you are lucky. you have been teaching them about reality the whole time (through High School & Sem), so that they understand what it takes. Perhaps you made your child partially pay for Sem? Perhaps a Budget?
The sorry end of the story is, I know a number of girls who are in that exact position (“need” a learner but can’t support). Most (Ruba D’Ruba) of them are not married.
AZ:
I have not yet found a Rav who will tell a boy who is ready to get married not to do so. (see the Gemorah I quoted to Mrs. Tzippi). The answer is to go the other way, boys should get married younger, to similar aged (or older) girls.
I’m enjoying the way this thread turned out. This topic usually goes in circles, but here there are real points and discussions being brought out that make one stop and think about the whole situation.
Try not to let it go there
OK, I’m really confused. Truth is, I’m all for making our kids as self-sufficient as possible. But I think that a lot of the people who are calling for making our girls career women would, not too long ago, be calling for our yiddishe tochters to get married as young as possible to create a large beautiful family, not full of those shtuyos. Big paradigm shift here. My head’s gonna explode…
“Can we safely assume that everyone who visits “CR” can’t/won’t send their children to Shulamis type schools, and are therefore in this predicament.”
AZOI.IS- are you kidding??
and this comment appears in the same site as the big bang thread….
It takes all types
Tzippi, I think your concerns about boys not being mature enough are valid, but if you would realize the magnitude of the shidduch crisis, you would realize that it’s a small concern compared to the alternative. If the trend becomes that boys start marrying earlier, eventually they will expect to get married earlier and be more ready for it (like the chassidim).
Rebitzen, I think your concerns about the shidduch crisis are valid, but if you would realize the magnitude of the shalom bayis crisis, you would realize that it’s a small concern compared to the alternative.
PM: boys not being mature enough is only half of the issue. The women have to be mature as well, not crying home to mommy every time something happens. both sides need maturity and sometimes only age (and maybe holding a job/schooling) can help. solving some of the shidduch crises doesnt have to come from boys marrying earlier. it could happen that women wait another year or two and then marry the boys (at the age that they would have earlier). generally, girls who marry straight out of high school/seminary do not have enough maturity and knowledge to raise a family.
Does anyone have a shred of evidence that there are more shalom bayis issues in couples where the boys is 22.5 and the girls is 21 vs. couples 23 – 19 yr.
clearly solving the shidduch crisis require boys to start dating every so slightly earlier and girls ever so slightly later. 22.5 21 instead of 23-19. There is no reason to think any harm would come from such change.
There was a story of a girl who came back to her mother’s house after a month of marriage, crying that she had a fight with her husband so she was coming home. Her (very wise) mother told her she was married now and her home was at a different address, and she should work things out with her husband, Six children later, that marriage is still very solid. Smart mom, excellent mother-in-law.
This whole issue concerns me because my 18 year old daughter is not at all mature enough to get married. As I’ve told her, it’s better to remain unmarried than to marry the wrong person.
But B”H I am not part of the society that sees a 22 or 23 year old girl as a leftover, so I am confident that my daughter will find the right person when she is more ready than she is now.
Rebbetzin, there’s more than the boys’ maturity. There is the boys’ competence, and accepting of the need to leave full time learning sooner rather than later once you get married. Boys getting married earlier will lead to even more ridiculous support demands. The chassidishe boys may have more intense learning behind them due to non-existent English, and a willingness and connections to work in “business” that doesn’t require extensive training or schooling.
Now you can say, but the girls are older and have good jobs! Right. What if they want to stop working full time, or need to due to special needs kids, say, or have a complicated pregnancy? We can’t leave the burden on the wives and the parents! Parnasa issues can lead to serious shalom bayis problems and frankly, I don’t want to set my kids are up for this.
AZOI.IS:
I don’t know about Shulamis, but I would hope that most children (boys & girls) are not pushed into staying in Kollel forever when they are young.
However, if that is the direction you wish for your child to take, don’t complain when the bill comes in. You get what you ask for.
Mrs. Tzippi:
You are correct. We (The Yeshiva World) push for two items (Kollel & Stay at home moms) that are complete opposites. It seems stay at home moms are losing out (they probably would anyway due to tuition costs). We bugged the “old” Joseph about this many times, and I have yet to see an answer.
Even part time stay at home moms would be a tremendous chizuk for the klal. B”H most babysitters that I’ve met are pleasant and safe environments for a few hours a day. But we’re not giving our girls permission to ever even think of getting to that point.
BTW, not all sems cram kollel down the throat. And when I went to sem close to thirty years ago the emphasis was on sending husbands out to learn on whatever steady basis was our reality, and that how happy the home of someone who’s truly koveiah itim.
Mrs. Tzippi:
I know this may seem to be Apikorsus, but our religion has drasticly changed from what it was 30 years ago. Just look (BH) at all the Shaitels, where 30 years ago it was not a given. It comes with other things as well.
Besides, SOMEONE has to pay tuition!
“Now you can say, but the girls are older and have good jobs! Right. What if they want to stop working full time, or need to due to special needs kids, say, or have a complicated pregnancy? We can’t leave the burden on the wives and the parents! Parnasa issues can lead to serious shalom bayis problems and frankly, I don’t want to set my kids are up for this. “
When did staying home and raising Torah-committed Jews for the next generation, become less choshuv than supporting one’s family, so the husband can sit and learn? I thought and was taught ALL my Yeshivah life, that the woman’s tafkid is not less important than the man’s, just DIFFERENT, because it is her role to raise klal Yisroel. I know from Breishis that Hashem commanded man (AND NOT WOMAN) to earn the living. It says “B’zayas apecha” not “apeichem.” There is a reason for that, just as there is a reason why women are exempt from certain time-bound mitzvos. But we as a klal have lost sight of that very important tafkid, and decided that women should go out and earn the living instead. Curiouser and curiouser.
HSS: I was only commenting on the idea of boys marrying younger, you are correct that 19 year old girls are usually not mature either.
I must have overlooked that when i read your comment-sorry!
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