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Here is my statement .I am a shadchan that has come to the conclusion that parents dont know their boys .They think their boys are metzuyonim ,that they want to learn long term and they throw #rs 5 years 10 years not even knowing what that means .The boys are embaressed to admit that they really want to learn for as long as they really can ,which can mean 1 year or 2 years.For some reason either it is the rosh hasheivos or peer pressure from the girls who come out of seminery that they have no choice.It is almost like Israel where the boys are forced to stay in kolel because of the army.Kolel life is not for everyone and it is a great zechus to be able to stay in kolel for so many years..But lehavdil just like Harvard is not for everyone neither is 5 or 10 years for everyone.I really believe that kolel should be a zechus for more than 2 years and at that time the kolel should give bechinos to see if they are acomplishing and using the time properly.I think life will go back to normal ,and a boy that is serious about his learning will stay in kollel for many years and get paid properly and be able to learn with a yeshuv hadas .The problem with this idea kollels will get smaller but the quality will be unbelievable.If a kollel like BMG makes a seperate building for boys who are ready to take bechinos every month and at the end of the month they bring home a paycheck ,believe me his wife will respect him even more.The boys that dont want to take bechinos will learn in a different building not get paid because they are not using the time properly or they are in kollel because they are being supported ,fine with me ,they are in a beautiful seviva ,but let the boys that are trully metzyonim get what they deserve and let the parents and wives shep real naches from their husband and sons.By doing this things will go back to normal.
I agree with you on this.
At this time though, I’m going to make a connection between your comment here and some comments you posted on the Shadchanus Gelt thread. Please don’t get offended by this as I have no idea who you are.
Kolel life is not for everyone and it is a great zechus to be able to stay in kolel for so many years..But lehavdil just like Harvard is not for everyone neither is 5 or 10 years for everyone.
Just like not everyone belongs in Kolel and not everyone belongs in Harvard, so too, not everyone belongs in Shadchanus.
The problem, in my opinion, with shadchanim these days is that there is lots of money involved when an idea comes to fruition, but no consequences, even for malicious behavior, when nothing comes of the idea.
Anyone, without any background or training, can suggest a shidduch, and two or three dates later (and possibly between $200 and $300 later) if it doesn’t work, all the shadchan has to say it, “Oops, it obviously wasn’t meant to be”.
There should be a board (or some sort of similar structure) as well as mandatory training and certification that a professional shadchan has to go through before being allowed to get lists from yeshivas and seminaries and suggest shidduchim.
Additionally, there should be a list of rules that any certified shadchan has to follow or face monetary fines as well as suspension of certification, or even permanent revocation for more serious offences.
This will filter out the yentas who don’t belong in shidduchim anyway and restore respect for the few that do.
modchebp-
I respectfully disagree with you. Unfortunately far too many people are suggesting shidduchim without the proper intentions. Ignoring them is not a possibility as they continue to call or resort to other tactics. (It came to the point that some friends and I refused to deal with ANY professional shadchan.)
Read up on some of the horror stories I’ve posted in other threads, I’m too busy to rewrite them now.
Iv’e actually been saying something like this for while. Men who plan on being in kollel should have to pass an “entrance exam”, as well as show a true love and interest in learning, in order to be allowed in, just like any other profession that pays. Otherwise, get a job, and learn when you can.
MP: Au contraire. Men who plan on getting a job should have to pass an “competency exam”, as well as show a true love and interest in working, in order to be allowed to work, any job that pays. Otherwise, go learn, and work on the side when you can.
Dr. Pepper, many Rabonim think that every person should be involved in making shidduchim. One of the first questions a person is asked after 120 “Asakta Bepirya Verivya?” refers exactly to this.
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shlishi, fair enough. It goes both ways. If you have a love and interest in learning, try that first. If you have a love and interest in another field, try that first. Then, do what you can in your free time to help yourself and your family.
” Men who plan on being in kollel should have to pass an “entrance exam”, as well as show a true love and interest in learning, in order to be allowed in, just like any other profession that pays.”
What exactly do you propose that this entrance exam consist of?
It is truly inspiring how a question clearly belonging solely in the domain of competent Daas Torah is bandied about the masses like a sports debate. Tizku lemitzvos!!
I will say only this. I find that it has become a stigma in the jewish world to be working rather than learning and this can negatively affect shidduchim (I am talking from experience here). On the other side I have gone out with girls who say they want a learner when they really don’t. So where is the problem again?
😀 Zuberman! 😀
Dr. P
“The problem, in my opinion, with shadchanim these days is that there is lots of money involved when an idea comes to fruition, “
Please explain what you mean by that. Do you mean that people who “yenta” in shidduchim are making it rich (i think facts on the ground of monies earned by vast majority of ppl who “yenta” in shidduchim would dispute that), or do you mean that ppl choose to yenta here and there in shidduchim for the chance to strike it rich of a payday once in a moon of 2,000 to 3,000. If you are reffering to the very very few shaddchanim who actually make enough shidduchim each year (in conjunction with other shiddcuh opportunities such as being hired by a city,) are those the ones you want banned? They are making 20 plus shidduchim a year……
Mayan_Dvash-
Just because one is involved in shidduchim doesn’t mean one had to be nasty.
If there would be a list of guidelines one has to follow it would make the shidduch experience much more pleasant for everyone involved.
I posted the following suggestions in a different thread in June.
This should all be common sense but unfortunately it still has to be mentioned.
(Like I wrote in the other post- everything is my opinion and I am not representing my opinion as fact.)
1. Don’t lie- If someone asks a question it usually means that it’s important to them. It’s not up to you to decide what’s important or not.
2. Don’t stalk- I found it creepy when Shadchannim found out who I previously dated and who I was currently dating. It’s none of your business and if you “happened” to have found out somehow you are not allowed to share this information!
3. Don’t give my name out without my permission- If I never asked you to put my name on your list but you got it from my yeshiva please ask me before distributing it. It’s not fair to my friends, neighbors, Rabbeim and relatives to get numerous calls about me when I can’t possibly date all of them anyway. It’s also not fair to me to get a reputation as a guy who says “no” to everyone.
4. Don’t use excessive pressure- If it’s a “no” then it’s “no”, if I need more information then I’ll let you know.
Dr. Pepper.
I agree with your ideas for shadchanim behavor which as you say is common sense and basic middos.
AZ-
Thanks for agreeing on the basic concepts. I think if we build from here we’ll see that there is much more that we agree on.
Being a shadchan, unlike virtually every other profession, requires no training- yet there is lots of money to be earned if the couple ends up getting married. The monetary cost of setting up a potential couple is minimal, the expenses are incurred by the ones dating, and failures are, for the most part, kept secret.
This may look like the perfect opportunity for a stay-at-home parent to make money without spending any. Truth is though- making a shidduch requires lots of skill.
(As I said in a different thread, picking names out of a hat will eventually work- just like a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day. If one only points to the clock at the two times a day that it is displaying the correct time, others will think it works!)
The ones who are suggesting shidduchim for any reason other than the righteous purposes are making it extremely unpleasant for everyone else. They need to be stopped immediately!
A shadchan getting a large payment is something I have no issue with- provided that they showed the proper decency to the people they helped.
Dr. Pepper, excuse me for asking but according to what you are saying you seem to be very sought after and a very hot commodity, why are you having a problem finding a shidduch?
aries2756-
I’m married already. I was speaking on behalf of those that are still dating; based on my experiences while dating.
Sorry for the confusion.
If my post came across as being arrogant please be assured that it was not my intention.
“The enterance exam is not what is important its the fact that they know that after 1 month they will get a bechina”
Should a boy be denied the chance to learn because he can’t do well on a test? Maybe he is not a good test taker. Maybe he is not so smart. Neither of those have any bearing on his learning. If you want to weed out the boys who don’t belong, a better way to do it would be to check who are the ones that are not in the beis medrash when they should be.
Dr. Pepper
You didn’t respond to my earlier post. I assume you didn’t see it. It referenced you comment along the lines of “yet there is lots of money to be earned if the couple ends up getting married”.
I think you are off base. See my earlier post.
In a nutshell Shadchanus is certainly NOT a way for a stay at home mom to bring in supplemental income. There are many many other ways to bring in far more money with far less work, includign opportunites that don’t have any training requirment.
AZ-
That post was in response to your earlier post (#280205) I just thought I’d throw in a line and a half to thank you for reading my post and agreeing. 🙂
$3,000 a month (tax free), working at home with zero skill or training sounds like a lot to me. I’d be surprised if there are even a handful of opportunities that bring in the same amount with no training or skill.
modchebp-
After reading your post in another thread I think I smell something fishy.
You made over 30 shidduchim in 8 months which will come out to 45 per year if you keep it up. Now assuming you only get $2,500 from each side for your hard work- that’s $5,000 per shidduch and $225,000 per year (not including the fees for accepting resumes, meeting clients and dates that don’t work).
You stated above that 1 in 200 work, that means that you make 9,000 attempts per year.
With all the time you say is involved in setting up two people can you please explain how you have the time to set up two people 9,000 time?
Thanks
“To Patur aval assur I dont say that a boy who is slow or doesnt do good on a test should not be in kollel.Let him take a oral test ,let him talk in learning with the rosh chaburah,or let him learn in kollek where they dont pay.If someone is using his time properly he should not have a problem”
My point was that a test has no bearing on whether you are using your time properly.
dr p
How many shadchanim do you know of that make 12 shidduchim a year each year and who recedive full shadchanus from each of them
Do you have any idea how many hours of work it takes for those few shadcahnim who do average a shidduch a month.
If you think any and every stay at home mom who wants some easy cash can make a shidduch a month you have NO idea. Your really don’t.
Of those that presently are making a shiddcuh a month, do you have any idea how many years they where at it untill they reached that level of production??
modchebp-
Wow, I agree with your idea one hundred percent. Except I don’t think they should wait till 2 years, in my opinion testing should be mandatory right away, before marriage as well.
” in my opinion testing should be mandatory right away, before marriage as well.”
Again, testing will not accomplish anything. Except maybe turning people off of learning.
modchebp:
Exactly how do you qualify to stay in kollel, seeing as a test proves nothing?
One needn’t be the best learner to stay in long term kollel. All that’s needed is a desire and effort. He is just as qualified and worthy of being paid as a quick learner that knows everything by putting in the same effort.
There should be some sort of training for shadchanim. I am surprised that an organization such as Aish or Agudah doesn’t offer such a course – unless they have never been approached to do so. The students should study psychology, some sociology relevant to the various backgrounds and customs of different Jews, how to run a small business and business and personal ethics. This is just a basic core that the curriculum should contain. I am certain that many of you could add more topics. The program could probably be accomplished in 4 to 6 months of full time learning or a year or more of part time learning (taking one course at a time in the evening).
Why does not passing a test indicate that you are not qualified to be in kollel?
Patur Aval Assur-
Again, testing will not accomplish anything. Except maybe turning people off of learning.
I believe modchebp was not suggesting that one not be allowed to stay in yeshiva or kollel without testing, only that there be two different tracts.
About the tests, I would not suggest standardized tests for the entire yeshiva, but rather each Rosh Chabura should test based on whatever he thinks the capabilities of his guys are. The point of the testing is not for them to prove themselves academically, there already is such a system in place for halacha sugyas, but that’s not the point here, the point is to show who is actually serious about their learning and who isn’t just there because it’s convenient. Even an easy test would do.
And if even this throws people off, well shoot me for saying this, but let them get thrown off. If someone is in yeshiva or kollel because they get a free ride and he can wake up at eleven and sit in the coffee room and hock all day, I do not really care that he decides to leave yeshiva. And before you attack me, consider also the fact that the presence of such people in a yeshiva is not just neutral, it does as a matter of fact disturb the general ambiance and bring the serious guys down even if only in a not very noticeable, but very significant way.
If your whole problem is the people who wake up at eleven and sit in the coffee room all day hocking, then what do you need a test for to determine who is serious? Just check who sleeps late and who is in the coffee room the whole day and don’t pay them. The use of a test to determine who is serious about learning is patently ridiculous.
Patur Aval Assur-
Even those who are up, aren’t always learning. Some take long coffee breaks or pick as a chavrusa b’davka the guy who they know they’ll be able to shmooze all day with. And I do personally feel that attendance is not the most important thing all of the time as long as the guy is learning wherever he is and he is not slacking off. That’s why I would rather see tests then attendance being strictly taken. Let me reiterate, I’m not talking about difficult tests. And for all I care, the test-takers don’t need to be made aware of their scores, because that’s not really what’s important, and I don’t know that this kind of competition is healthy in a yeshiva. What’s important is that they are in yeshiva or kollel because of an ideal, to achieve something, and not just because it is easier than going to work or learning a profession.
modchebp-
Just an aside, even without changing the system, there are tests that you can take in BMG, especially on halacha subjects, and if a prospective parent-n-law is so concerned, couldn’t a deal be arranged in which the prospective son-in-law agrees to take the tests and accomplish x amount in x amount of time with reasonable flexibility?
But again, I do agree very much in principle with your concept.
“To PAtur
What do you have against a bechina for thr yungaleit that are learning seriosly,keeping shomrei sedorim,and showing results to their wives how prould they can be of them”
What I have against a test is that it doesn’t show anything. A person can be learning well and not do well on a test. And people can be not learning well and do well on a test. All a test does is mislead people.
modchebp-
I agree with you.
learning for life isnt for everyone
different strokes for different folks
if i guy is learning for life he should learn cuz he loves it not cuz his father does
i dont think the fathers dont know their sons i think they just feel strongly about learning for life
I haven’t read all of the prior posts, only the first few and skimmed through some of the rest. I feel compelled to point out to Dr. Pepper that the original post refers to the BOYS in shidduchim and NOT the shadchans. If you feel there is another issue that needs to be addressed, maybe another thread should be started. You do have a point, but it does not seem in any way contradictory or even supplementary to the original poster’s point.
Additionally if the poster was the type of shadchan who is “in it for the money”, if they do exist, why would she bother herself with problems of the shidduch world, after all she’s getting paid anyway.
And as a sidenote, I come from a community where shadchanim do not ever get paid! People make matches as chesed and the couple gives a gift to the shadchan after they get married, as a thank you!
People make matches as chesed and the couple gives a gift to the shadchan after they get married, as a thank you! “
I love this idea, but the truth is, there is a chiyuv to pay SOMETHING to the shadchan. I think a gift can qualify as payment.
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