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AZ
by the way, his name is squeak.
and that’s without the caps 😉
squeak: my aplogies.
Tzippi, I just got my hands on the ad.
sounds to me like it’s the point I addressed.
One big problem with pushing off learning in E”Y till after one’s chasunah is the practically 100% necessity of support. Even if a boy marries an older girl who is established in her field, the likelihood of her being able to immediately start working in E”Y without investing time and retraining is not so great.
Any “solution” that will require parental financial support is CONTRIBUTING to the shidduch crisis, not ameliorating it.
And I won’t even bring up that Yated letter that mentioned the personal angles so eloquently.
Tzippi:
I don’t get it. If a boy would do better in his learning by not going to EY before his wedding should he still go??? After he gets engaged/married a mature decision should be made as to where he should continue learning taking all factors into account. Are you advocating going to EY at a time that is not good for his learning simply to “get it out of his system”. Obviously, boys (with their wives) who decide to learn in EY post chasuna will have to make sure that it works financially. Whether or not they learned there as a bochur should make no difference.
If your point is that learning in EY post chasuna is not a financially smart decision because they will require complete financail support; and you feel that something should be done about it (your argument not mine); than that is all the more reason to discourage boys from going before their chassuna. Clearly the boys that are most likely to return and require financial support post chasuna are those that where there before they started dating. Boys that didn’t learn there as a bochur in all likelihood will continue learning learning wherever he had been before his chasuna.
I’m not talking about “getting it out of his system”. What I hope to convey to my boys is this: understand that when you get married you have to be prepared to accept the responsibility of building your bayis neeman (read your kesuba carefully). As such, understand that whatever level of full time learning you feel you’ll need to be a true ben Torah should probably be undertaken BEFORE you get married, or be prepared to think out of the box. Even if your wife is working at a well-paying job
– this may not be transferable everywhere
– she could be put on bed-rest with triplets soon after the chasuna
– financial support from parents can fall through
– you and she may feel it’s better for her to be at home full or part-time with the kids, much sooner than you think
I could go on.
Our kids shouldn’t be scared to the point of being put off getting married but they have to go into this with a level of resourcefulness and understanding of reality that I’m not seeing now. Some of these suggestions to ease the crisis are so not in our kids’ best interests.
” As such, understand that whatever level of full time learning you feel you’ll need to be a true ben Torah should probably be undertaken BEFORE you get married, or be prepared to think out of the box. Even if your wife is working at a well-paying job
– this may not be transferable everywhere
– she could be put on bed-rest with triplets soon after the chasuna
– financial support from parents can fall through
– you and she may feel it’s better for her to be at home full or part-time with the kids, much sooner than you think”
Very well-said, Tzippi.
So we agree that boys should be encouraged to date and marry girls their own age. From a financial perspective it definitely makes sense.
We also agree that boys should get married when they are ready. Your issue of being ready for the financial responsibility is an excellent point. I was just wondering how a year of unproductive learning in israel contributes towards that end. The argument about shortening the time in israel is simply that its not great for their learning. When to start dating? That should depend on each individual boy not on when the system allows, (now that’s radical isn’t it).
AZ, what do we agree on? That 22/23 year old boys should marry girls their age because the girls can support them this way? Now, let’s say the boy wants to learn for a few years (and how many don’t want to?). Then they’ll need time to train for their own parnassah… it is unfair to our young women to put the complete burden on them for this long, and even more unfair to the parents. (Tuition crisis anyone?) But as my ivrit teacher would say, this is being tochen kemach tochun.
Why is a year of learning in E”Y if one feels that that is the place (avira dE”Y machkim) and the yeshiva where he’ll grow unproductive?
“When to start dating? That should depend on the each individual boy etc.” Not according to those who attribute the shidduch situation to age. Many of these people are advocating boys starting to date even YOUNGER.
Tzippi: It appears that you have an ax to grind regarding the kollel system and the unfair burden it places on girls.
This is a post of yours from three months ago
“As it is, for some reason over the last generation it has become much more widely accepted to support for x number of years. If boys will start dating earlier, say 2 years earlier, it will become x+2. Not necessarily good for the shalom bayis of the young couple, and may not help the parents much easier”
If you believe that $$$$ is a major cause of shidduch crisis, please come out and say it, (and I will disprove it). However if you are just complaining about the problems in the kollel system without relevance to the age gap …….
Do you really think that if boys go to EY for a year they will financially more prepared? Last I checked Brisk and Mir don’t have night college as part of the sidrei hayeshiva.
As for why people claim that the year in israel is unproductive for many boys, try speaking to the boys that have come back over the last couple of years. Is seems that a very large portion of them thought they would merit (avira de”y machkim) however unfourtantly it didn’t happen like they thought. Ask around the boys and their rebbeim. I await the results from your survey.
tzippi: I apoligize, I didn’t address your last point.
NO one (that I know of) is advocating that boys get married before they are ready simply to alleviate the age gap induced shidduch crisis. However many boys (ready or not) start dating after x amount of years of bais medrash. Those same boys if they didn’t go to EY would start dating a bit earlier. They would be no more nor less ready.
Please, feel free to disprove that $$$$ is not a factor in the shidduch situation now.
Find me really good quality learning boys who are looking for bnos Yisroel with whom to build their homes, for whom the girl’s earning potential and the parents’ ability to support are irrelevant. There are many girls who will be thrilled to hear this.
One last thing: Az, you’re a better man than I am. I just said we’re rehashing old stuff, you proved it 😉 So permit me to say this, possibly again.
I don’t know if you’ve read R. Yonasan Rosenblum’s article Chemotherapy As Metaphor. I think that this generation has got to attack and work on and enable our children to build their batei ne’eman with the same energy and single-mindedness. Our kids have to go into marriage with that as the primary goal. Of course there is no bayis ne’eman without Torah as its absolute center and essence. But our boys have to go into this with more than they currently are.
Tzippi:
Clearly $$$$ helps decide which girls have an advantage. If there are 150 girls and 100 boys on a island ……
Which 100 girls of the 150 will have a better shot a getting marreid. Most likely looks, yichus $$$$ etc. However even if every girl had everything. Or better yet. Even if every boy had all the qualities that you think they should have, it will not change the fact that 50 have no chance of getting off the island.
You see, as a community we really shouldn’t care whether the 50 stuck girls are rich or not, pretty or not, great personalities or not. What we should care about is making sure there are equal numbers on the island.
Oh bytw, when the numbers are equal suddenly the $$$ and other such factors become much less of an issue as the boys have less leverage.
If you want to alleviate the $$ problem (and you do) then solve the numbers. The money will automatically solve itself. Simple law of supply and demand
One more thing. Your comments about building strong marriages is off this thread. However once again, If we want to create a ruach where boys have to bring more to the table (your argument); we must ven out the numbers. As long as the boys are sitting pretty in the shidduch situation and getting plenty of dates, there is no way to change the system. When the girls will have the upper hand and be able to insist on certain qualities WITHOUT running risk of being left on the island, then we will all see unbelievable changes in the qualities of the boys. As it stands now, the girls that hold out have a much greater chance of getting stuck.
Is it fair?? Absolutley NOT. But this IS the situation whether we like it or not.
It comes down to simple supply and demand.
It comes down to simple supply and demand.
You have a point!
AZ, one question about lowering the age:
Most of the men I know in their young 20s are no where near ready to get married. They wait until 24+ to be stable human beings. Women tend to be ready younger. Lets say 25% of men and 75% of women are ready at 21 to date/marry. Using your 100/150 numbers, there are 25 men there are now 113 women vying for them if you want to stay in the same age range. Doesnt that make it even harder?
Is the shidduch system broke? Absolutely. But maybe its time to re-implement polygamy if the numbers are that skewed (which, I honestly don’t think is the case)
oomis1105:
Thanks for coming around
SjsinNYC:
You write,
“if the numbers are that skewed (which, I honestly don’t think is the case)”
Do you buy into population growth of 3%-4% per year?
Do you buy into average age gap between boy and girl around 3 yrs?
The automatic result is approx 10% per year left over on the island. Do you think it is more skewed than that or less??
AZ, if you are talking about a ten percent difference, that is a lot different from the 100/150 numbers you keep trying to use. If you have 100 men free, then you have 110 women free – vastly different.
But you didn’t answer my point about making it even harder for young women to date. Please review my post above.
SJS:
“Most of the men I know in their young 20s are no where near ready to get married. They wait until 24+ to be stable human beings.”
🙂
How very true.
As a side point: If the ones who are 24 would be willing (or forced (for a while), via modifications to “the freezer”) to at least go out with those who have been passed over (older than themselves), many of those girls would be “mopped up” and there would be much smaller of an issue.
SjSinnyc:
10% per year x what has been going on for the last couple of years.
The numbers of 100/150 are for illustrative purposes only. The actual numbers are about 2000 boys per year entering the island to 2,200 girls per year entering the island. With 200 girls stuck every year. Multiply that by what has been going on for the last 10 years and we have around 2,000 unmatchable girls. Sounds pretty serious to me.
as for 18-20 year old girls having a more difficult time getting dates,as far as I’m concerned that’s all good. It means the 21-23 year olds are getting the dates!
gavra: How right you are regarding the freezer.
The following ad appeared over pesach
“If come Tu B’shvat/Tamuz boys are only permitted to date girls 21 and older, and to date younger girls a boy must wait till after the zeman, then boys will have a strong incentive to date girls their own age.”
Therein lie the solution to the crisis, (certainly in right wing circles)
as for 18-20 year old girls having a more difficult time getting dates,as far as I’m concerned that’s all good. It means the 21-23 year olds are getting the dates!
So a young woman (lets say 18-20) who is mature and ready to get married should have trouble dating so someone else should get dates? That doesnt make sense to me.
I think everything you’ve been saying implies people are NOT marrying their bashert. Which I disagree with.
I am not sure if 2,000 women unmarried is a “crisis” – maybe not all women are meant to get married. Or maybe its time to reinstate polygamy. One wife to cook, clean and raise the kids plus one to work so the husband can learn.
SJSinNYC: You write,
“I am not sure if 2,000 women unmarried is a “crisis” – maybe not all women are meant to get married.”
You are entitled to your opinion. In which case this discussion is not relevant to you. This thread is addressing the members of our communities who view this as a crisis, or more accurately as a tragedy and would like to do something about it.
You didn’t address why a young woman should have trouble dating so an older woman won’t have as much trouble.
Young women should do whatever than can to get dates. As a community we need to ensure that ALL have a reasonable chance to get married therefore we should encourage more close in age shidduchim.
Sounds like you are swapping one problem with another. Younger women will be unwanted and sort of picked over until they get older. Doesnt sound like a solution to me.
Sounds like I haven’t explained myself well enough. We are not talking about girls getting married at 27 instead of 18. We are discussing more marriages between 23 yr old boys and 21 yr old girls instead of with 19 yr olds. If more 21 yr olds getting married instead of 19 year old doesn’t find favor in your eyes, than as I wrote before, it sounds like you prefer to leave the situation as is and continue with the tragedy afflicting our communtied
No, I didn’t say that.
What you are proposing is closing the age gap. In order to do that pretty effectively you need to have 21 match up with 21 and 19 match up with 19. Otherwise, there will definitely still be more women than men.
But who do the 19 year old women date? There would now be a stigma of dating outside your age range (lets be real – anything that isn’t considered the “norm” gets a stigma, and you are changing the age stigma) so a 19 year old girl would either have no one to date, or date the 24 year old guys who can’t get anyone else. You arent solving the problem, just moving it around.
Girls come back from seminary around 19. Most of them start dating pretty quickly. Most 19 year old boys are NOT dating. Many arent even dating until 22+. So there is STILL a 3 year age gap at a minimum.
I personally think people should date the right people, not the right age.
In order to close and solve the age gap problem we don’t need boys to marry girls exactly their age, we need to get it to around a 1/1.5 yr age difference. (the mathtematical explanation is perhaps beyond the scope of this thread).
In other words guys 21.5 and girls 20. This doesn’t need to happen over night nor will it. However we need go GRADUALLY move in that direction of boys starting slightly earlier and girls slightly later. Is that asking SO much?
You write:
“I personally think people should date the right people, not the right age.”
ABSOLUTELY. However many people don’t even consider girls that are their own age simply because the girl isn’t 19. Let’s try to encourage boys to realize that perhaps the right girls is his own age. NOW that’s radical!
AZ –
I started going out at age 23
I was one of the earlier ones of my friends to start going out.
Don’t even think about telling me or my friends that we should’ve started going out earlier. For what? I wasn’t ready when I was 21.5. In the close to two years from 21.5 till when I started going out – my life changed considerably. I probably wouldn’t have gotten the same quality girl as I should’ve as my “name” and position where I was in life was a lot worse. I appreciate the love that you give to people who go out. Go out when you’re not ready and marry the wrong person because at least the girl will get married. If that’s the way you feel – I’ll repeat a suggestion I made earlier – Tell guys to marry 19. Why wait till 21.5. this way they’ll get divorced at 21 and remarry at 22. That will solve the shidduch crisis. Every girl should have the right to marry AT LEAST ONCE. At least girls will be married for a few years as opposed to never.
This argument is spinning in circles like a whirlpool. It seems kind of purposeless to me being that no one is being convinced to change their mind.
~a~
My computer was down. Don’t think I’ve finally seen the light, AZ. You mention that as long as the boys have this leverage, yeah, they’ll look for money.
Not my boys. They will look for the girl who will help them build a bayis neeman. First and foremost. They will not take money from their younger siblings in laws yeshivos, prevent the younger children from going to camp, etc., things which happen. The types of girls they want may not come from families with parents who can put xxx xxx dollars in the bank to guarantee the nadan, should the wife becomes indisposed. I don’t know what that will mean l’maaseh, we’re a couple of years away. I think it means that my sons will probably be older than the mean when they think they can assume this responsibility, not younger.
Just Smile: I haven’t once suggested that boys start going out earlier and certainly not earlier than they are ready. What has been discussed in encouraging more close in age shiddcuhim. Boys will be boys and they will start going out whenever it is appropriate for them INDIVIDUALY. However, whenever they start, they should be encouraged to date girls close to whatever age they are when they start.
The discusion about boys 21.5 and girls 20 is a long term goal not for any individual who today is not ready.
anonymiss:
check out this from, oomis1105
“It comes down to simple supply and demand.
You have a point!”
sounds like she’s coming around!
AZ –
you once again contradict yourself and make no sense.
First you say – I haven’t once suggested that boys start going out earlier and certainly not earlier than they are ready.
Then only 3 lines later you say – The discusion about boys 21.5 and girls 20 is a long term goal…
OK – so lets make up our minds here. Do we want to say a recommended age (with exceptions – but this is the general age)? Or do we want to say that it’s when ever a boy is ready? YOU CAN’T DO BOTH! It doesn’t make sense to say, 21.5 but only if they are ready. If they are ready then it has nothing to do with how old they are. If it’s strictly when they are ready then there is no room for an age.
I understand that some want to close the age gap in shidduchim and have girls start dating later , but so many times girls are seriously ready for marriage at 18 and 19. Why should they have to wait till 21 to start dating, when by then they will be cosidered older and they will be part of the shidduch crisis. Personaly I know so many young girls that are ready to get married, and even though i understand the shidduch crisis why should they have to wait. If Hashem wants them to get married young they will. And its important to remember Hakadosh Boruch Hu Mizaveg Es Zivugim, so ultimatley I think girls can start dating at any age if they are mature because its all up to Hashem. But its important not to rush someone into a marriage that their not ready for-for both boys and girls, but when they are mature enough and ready to decide on their own(with guidance if needed) to start dating at whatever age it is then they should.
Danish: welcome to the cr! AZ will be happy to have a new friend in this thread!
I’m not saying that nothing should be done about the shidduchim,but i’m just saying you cant prevent an 18, or 19 year girl from dating if shes ready.
most 18-19 yr old girls just THINK they’re ready.
Just Smile and Danish:
Its not even worth discussing whether or not to “tell” girls who want to date at 18-19 that they shouldn’t, simply because they and their parents will not listen. However, if boys 22-25 are encouraged to date and marry girls their own age than inevitably fewer 18-19 yr old girls will get married.
Clearly there will always be 18-19 yr old girls dating. BUT if we are able to have fewer of them get married at that age then there will be far fewer girls turning 30 and still be single. Sounds like a positive result to me.
Similarly with the boys. At this point the message is to encourage them whenever they start to consider girls their own age. In the big picture, movement will have to be made on both ends to close the gap simply because at the end of the day there will always be far more 19 yr old girls than 23 yr old boys. This is the situation, no two ways about it.
Tzippi:
Not ALL boys, if raised your boys well kol hakavood. However, simple supply and demand dictates that as long as there exists a significant inequity of numbers the girls will get a raw deal. It doesn’t have to be that way and we as a community can change it.
Hmm… Don’t people marry the person that God decided they will marry 40 days before they were born? This is really confusing to me.
~a~
AZ, all you are really doing is pushing girls to get married later and later.
Not necessarily a bad thing, but I would also feel bad for the poor young women who want to start dating and cannot because they arent in the right age range.
anonymisss, you are asking the age-old question of the dividing line between hishtadlus and waiting for Hashem to send all the bracha to your front door.
not in all situations…people may think they’re marrying their ‘bashert’ but sometimes it ends in divorce…idk if that means that the person wasnt who they were meant to marry though
kapusta, yes and no. Because every person will get married to the person they’re supposed to marry at the time that they’re supposed to get married. So having boys date at a younger age will likely not get them married younger or to a different girl than they otherwise would have married. Am I making sense to you?
~a~
yes, but for most people their bashert will not turn up at their door (well, before a shadchan gets involved ;)) so until that point they have to go through whatever it is until they get to meet their bashert.
Anonymisss:
The answer to your question is NO.
Without debating the haskafik issues (see Arizal who says bas ploni l’ploni only refers to boys who get married at 18). I have a simple question for you. If you grant that presently we have 2000 more older girls than older boys (because of the age gap problem) WHO is their ploni?????
Trying to argue the haskafic points is fruitless unless you either debate the numerical problem on shidduch island, Or you believe that the ratzon hashem is for us to do NOTHING about it.
For the record I strongly disagree with both points. The numbers are obvious, HE expects us to do whatever we can to alleviate the situation.
AZ –
What does this mean?
In the big picture, movement will have to be made on both ends to close the gap simply because at the end of the day there will always be far more 19 yr old girls than 23 yr old boys.
Is this you’re way of pretending to back away from what you said and then slyly go to it again.
BOYS SHOULD NEVER EVER BE PUSHED TO DATE BEFORE THEY ARE READY.
If you want to make a push for boys to marry older girls that’s very nice sweet and thoughtful of you. But you are doing it so wrong that you are hurting you’re cause.
Inherintley, I think you might have a valid suggestion. Nothing new. I’ve heard it for years. You definiatley didn’t make it up and this has been around for quite some time.
That suggestion can be summed up in one line – Show boys that there is no difference between an older girl and a younger girl.
This is a very debated subject and you hold one side in it.
The reason you create waves is because you take it and run with it to such a level that you make yourself (and everyone who you claim is supporting you) look really stupid. Girls should start going out later. Boys should start going out earlier then ready. (Don’t deny you are saying this.) That’s rediculous.
Oh, and BTW, there are plenty other ways to help this exact issue. Like telling girls to actually figure out what they want to do in life, and work towards that – so that when they are on the market they will have a solid stance in life.
Generally, unless the girl knows what she wants to do in life, and is on the path to doing it, (and being a full time mother from the time you get married isn’t knowing what you want to do – it’s knowing what you don’t want to do), I, and a lot of people I know, won’t go out with them. And the older they get, the more down the path you have to be. The problem is a lot of girls, waste 2 years after seminary relaxing and trying to get married, and don’t think about maybe going to school and getting a job or something.
AZ
Member
Anonymisss:
The answer to your question is NO.
Without debating the haskafik issues (see Arizal who says bas ploni l’ploni only refers to boys who get married at 18). I have a simple question for you. If you grant that presently we have 2000 more older girls than older boys (because of the age gap problem) WHO is their ploni?????
Who ever said ploni is exactly what they think they want?
BYM, divorce doesn’t mean it was a mistake, for that time, those people were supposed to be married to each other.
kapusta, no, I don’t mean it will turn up at their door. All I’m saying is that changing the dating age will not change who people marry.
AZ, I’m a little bit hesitant to bring this up here, do you know what the statistical difference is between boy going off the derech and girls going off the derech? Do you think that could be a contributing factor? Perhaps we should work on keeping our kids.
~a~
Just Smile:
You write:
“Oh, and BTW, there are plenty other ways to help this exact issue. Like telling girls to actually figure out what they want to do in life, and work towards that – so that when they are on the market they will have a solid stance in life.”
kapusta:
You write:
“Who ever said ploni is exactly what they think they want?”
Please explain how either of these points in any way shape of form will alleviate the situation on shidduch island with 100 boys and 150 girls.
Do you agree with the numbers and offer a solution, OR do you still think that the numbers problem is a minor issue.
It is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to solve any problem without knowing what the problem is.
I posit that the shidduch crisis is overwhelmingly a direct result of the inequity of numbers. If we solve or alleviate the inequity of numbers then much has been accomplished. If not; everything else we attempt will be like fixing deck chairs on the titanic.
SO once again, is the discusion here about what is THE problem, or a debate about ways to perhaps alleviate the age gap.
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