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the best segula is to go on a date and dont be soo picky
if u wanted u could find dirt on anyone just go out and give the person a chance
chillmaster, just wondering what your background is for making such a statement? Please enlighten me.
Thank you,
~a~
dirt?? who has dirt? no one will ever find any on me even if they dug really deep…
😉
went to the best yeshivea in ny ie. novamisk, vyelipol
now im college to persue a carrear and work at the same time
lived with friends went to israel etc. but i daven and learn everyday . the main thing i learned in israel is to be true with urself and know wat u are and want out of life derech eretz is much harder to aquire then torah!!!! anyone can learn in yeshiva all day but to actually be a respectable human being is very hard!!!
so if u dig deep you can always find that a normal guy went through times that you have to hope that by the time they are ready to get married is way past them and they learned from them. these experiances are lessons that will go with them through life to make them a better person.
i think a guy with a past is much better them a perfect yeshiva boy. a guy with a past means he dealy with life issues and decieded he isnt happy with who he is and wants to change to be better. not just that he actuallt took the steps to better himself!!!!!
anonymiss i guess u have to be a guy to appreciate that type of humor
moish all they have to do is look on ywn for some dirt!!jk
bk- I was just making sure that he wasn’t a 50+ year old talking cuz then i’d be p….
chillmaster- you’re all clear and I do agree with what you said!
~a~
syag lechachma I’m a little late but that was great!!!
anonymisss I agree with you but it was bringing out a point, and humor has a way of doing that like nothing else can.
re: “IY”H by you oif simchas b’karov” and comments like this:
I used to get annoyed at these remarks. Now I take every single bracha for what it is and say amen. They’re all well intentioned.
Why is every ‘single’ out there so bitter? Why can’t they take a simple bracha for what it is?
Just say amen and move on. Train yourself to think positively. It’s not such a cruel world after all. It’s our perspective that has to change.
Don’t try to change the world before you try to change yourself.
Stop krechtzing about how everyone perceives you and your ‘situation’; and start focusing on others. It’ll take your mind off of the bitterness.
ames- just to add on to what you wrote above; being single many years I don’t mind when people give me brachos (as you so graciously gave me above) even hearing IYH by you doesn’t bother me, in fact I appreciate that as well. Yet, the shidduch parsha can be long and difficult for many people and hurtful comments don’t do anything to help the situation. I’ve heard everything from you’re being too picky to you don’t even want to get married (and everything in between)… and these are statements from random people on the streets who never picked up the phone and tried to suggest someone to me.
If people would just think even a little before they speak many hurtful comments wouldn’t be said, and many tears wouldn’t be shed.
Syag Lechochma, chillmaster, & areivimzehlazeh: all good points
baal kishron: i thought ur line was funny. i think kapusta put it best
sorry if i offended anyones sensibilities but im not speaking for myself as im not in the”parsha” yet but i can just imagine how it feels as all your friends are getting married and at every chasuna you r at you r trying as hard as you can to just enjoy the moment and be happy for your friend and every single person that sort of knows you will make a point of coming over to tell you that Iy”h by you etc which constantly brings you back to thinkig of ur own plight and all the bitterness etc if only ppl would think what effect their words have on ppl but i guess thats too much to ask:(
Areivim, agreed 100%. When I was at weddings in my single days, I was trying to focus on the happiness of the chosson instead of my misery at being single. And every time someone came over to me and said that, as well-meaning as it was, it was a break of the emotional shield I had erected. I appreciated the brachos, but would have appreciated them more if they were said silently. I never complained to anyone. I never wrote in a long screed to the Yated. I suffered in silence, intellectually knowing that it was mostly well-intentioned and that my emotions were distorted by my pain. But suffer I did. I am happy that you don’t have this problem. You have reached a place I tried to reach but failed, and I give you a lot of credit for it.
Daven with a lot of kavana on Purim… Purim is a big eis ratzon….
outoftowner: very true!!!
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A couple of eitzahs:
1) Try to pick a career or path in life and truly excel in it. This will make you desirable. Start early and don’t waste precious years. Even before you are ready to go out you need to lay a foundation.
2) Be kind and bubbly and warm, and people will want to be around you.
3) Dress well and be squeaky clean. Get regular haircuts and try to keep as fit as possible. I have seen people whom most would consider to be not that attractive naturally, present themselves so well that they look like a million bucks, and everyone wants to be around them. Anybody can do this.
4) The number one rule is confidence. No matter what your situation, if you come across as confident (doesn’t mean bossy), people automatically think you are very attractive. Look at some of these top executives in Microsoft or other companies. They don’t look like much, but since they are confident and well-dressed, they are perceived as being movie stars. Inner confidence comes with knowing that you are worth something to the world, and are good at something you do. Not that you try to fool people or brag. It means you have accomplished something that you and only you are proud of or may even know about. It is a quiet confidence. Bragging comes across as a total lack of confidence. Be real, not a fake.
If your self-worth only comes from clinging on to and being accepted by a certain crowd, then you are a follower and not a leader. That turns people off.
5) Develop confidence in your appearance, and don’t underestimate yourself. Realize that Hashem has created the koach of attraction in this world, and that people are probably far more attracted to you than you realize. Unless you are a green martian from mars, people will automatically be attracted to you. If you think of yourself as dumpy, others will, too.
6) Try to control anger. It scares people.
7) Do huge amounts of chesed, and people will see you have a good heart.
8) When dating, look at whether the other person attracts you and you enjoy being with him or her and their midos, not at externals like what will people say, her yichus is nothing outstanding, they are not known to have money, she went to a different seminary than I prefer, etc. The rest is all baloney.
9) Focus on your goals, and people will see the quality in you, and will want to set you up, and will even ask to be set up with you. A shidduch is not a goal, it is the acquisition of a mate to help you achieve your goals. Once you get married, if you have no goals, your spouse will lose all respect for you, and you will be in for rocky times.
10) Even handicapped people can polish and present themselves so well that people are very attracted to them. Nobody should give up hope.
Pashuteh- very well presented. One item bothers me- not everybody wants or can handle the ultimate confidence/leader type.
I would replace that with:
Boost your self esteem, know your self worth (not ego), and be yourself= real, natural. People feel most comfortable and most importantly, not intimidated, around those that act natural.
I have two unmarried daughters, and I am never hurt or upset by the “I”YH by you”s. The more the merrier. We never know WHOSE bracha is going to be the one that Hashem is Mekabeil. I will accept any and all good wishes, and when I attend a wedding, I have deeply felt genuine good wishes and feelings for the baalei simcha. Soem people find it harder to feel happy for someone else when they are in a tzorah. I believe thqat the more we wish happiness for others, the more it will come back to us. Mayeb I am just a Pollyanna, but I like my way better than the alternative of being farbissen.
There’s a segullah i once heard about, putting a plastic shopping bag with challah on an almond tree on tu b’shevat. anyone ever heard of it? or know anything about it?
PY great ideas but not only for shidduchim, but how to get somewhere in life I very much believe in the confidence thing (and as areivim said your self esteem, not self worth) no one wants to deal with someone who is always in need of an ego boost and depressed. one more idea, everyone has something to offer. sometimes a smile, some brains, patience etc but everyone has something for you to benefit from. as much as a person puts you on edge try to find one thing thats nice about them, even if its their taste in clothing, it will make it much easier for you to deal with people. 🙂
ames couldnt agree more!!! :):):):):):):):):):):)
Areivim, Kapusta and Ames, thanks for the feedback. I strongly believe in the smiling part. When I say to be confident, it doesn’t mean that you think you are the President of the USA. Just that you have some area or interest or hobby (or even taste in clothing) that makes you feel good about yourself, and is infectious.
The same holds true with public speaking. When first starting to speak, some people worry for days about what the others will think, and what if I forget, and I am so nervous and all kinds of things. This itself will ruin the speech.
You need to get up there and speak to the crowd like you are speaking to your friends about something that really excites you. Tell some jokes and keep them guessing. You need to be confident that you are entertaining them (even if it is an educational talk). Stop focusing on yourself, and focus on interacting with the crowd like they are your best friends. Then everyone has a good time. You need to open up to the world around you, instead of thinking everyone is judging you. It is hard to explain this concept, but once it clicks, then you can have the crowd eating out of your hands, and public speaking will never be the same to you, and will be fun, instead. It is all about confidence. It doesn’t mean you are the biggest world expert, it just means you are comfortable and relaxed with what you want to say.
Davening is for sure the key thing-but if you are looking for segulahs-there are quite a few-40 consecutive days (CD) of shir hashirim, 40 cd of perek shira, 40 cd of sefer tehillim-40 cd of several prakim in tehillim (see notes in back of tehillim for which ones)-40 cd of nishmas-40 cd of lighting a lecht and saying b’zchus r’mendel m’riminov ben r’ yosef m’riminiv, zchusum yagain aleinu, sheyishlach zivug hagun….giving tzedaka to r’meir bal haness-in davening u can add in u’r tefillah-by shma koleinu, by elokai n’tzor before y’hyu l’ratzon-and by karbanos right after l’doroseichem and before tanu rabanan-preferably in ivrit- Hope you have hatzlochah!
PY- public speaking training expert?
What’s if a person doesn’t do well around his friends. How can such a person apply or even relate to what you wrote?
I’ll answer this myself: a person that has trouble between their peers is usually someone with a low self esteem. So you need to address the root of the problem. Even very quiet people loosen up a bit when they’re around good friends. They may be on the quiet side, but they’re not shy or uncomfortable.
Areivim, that is exactly what I am trying to address. People need to find some way of boosting their self-esteem and confidence both for shidduchim and for anything else. It doesn’t mean they need to be the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company. But they still need to feel positive about themselves. I am trying to say that most anyone can develop this, and can learn to not only be more confident in private, but even in public.
I have even seen handicapped people who look great and are the most lebedig in the crowd, leading on everybody else at a simcha or whatever. Certainly those who are blessed to be normal can speak with confidence. One must have a positive attitude about him or herself, if he/she wants somebody else to have a positive attitude about him/her.
Too many people go around saying I am weird and ugly and nobody will want me, and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In just about every case, Hashem gives people the physical attributes to be attractive to others. They need to realize that they already have this gift, instead of complaining and worrying about imagined flaws.
In extreme cases, it leads to eating disorders and people going through unnecessary surgery in a desparate attempt to fix something that was never a problem to begin with. I have seen some people who were super attractive to begin with stop eating, and become totally sickly and emaciated, thinking they are now more attractive. Everything about them now looks terrible because of malnutrition, chapped skin, sore gums, bones protruding, gaunt faces, etc.
Best segulah. work to CLOSE THE AGE GAP by encouraging more close in age shiddchim. It is the source of the problem. Not only would this be a segulah beacuse “Kol Hamispalel bi’ad chaveiro vi’hu tzarich li’oso davar hu ne’na techila”, it’s is also the natural solution to the problem.
Stay tuned to a letter from numerous roshei yeshiva to this effect.
While that is a wonderful thing to blame the “shidduch crisis” on, since it faults no person or group of persons, it is factually incorrect. I’ve listened to all the specious arguments used to “prove” this point, and most charitable response I can give is that it is greatly exaggerated.
Simply put, the numbers are grossly exaggerated.
To fully prove one way or another, you would need to model a sample population over a long period of time and see how the male/female split diverges. I have seen this done (by someone who was trying to illustrate this theory for me), but to go over it here would be next to impossible. The key is that when modeling, your results reflect the inputs or assumptions that you set initially. It is easy to alter the assumptions to tailor the solution.
I felt strongly that the model inputs were inappropriate. When I asked the person to use my suggestions as inputs instead, there was almost no divergence.
Has anyone else here done modeling of this theory, or has everone just accepted it because it sounded nice? You know what else sounds nice? The sun going around the Earth, because then we are the center of the universe.
Dear Squeak,
Do you deny that
1. younger grades are than older grades for both girls and boys(population growth).
Please don’t, because a school study done by the Avi Chai foundation of all Jewish Schools in North America proved this without a shadow of a doubt.
2. Do you deny that: In the non chassic world Girls start dating 18-19 and boys appox 22-23.
in other words we have the equivalent of 12th grade boys dating ninth grade girls. Simply put every year there are more girls entering the dating pool (otherwise known as shidduch island) than boys.
If on the island there are 100 boys (12th graders) and 150 girls (9th graders), I guarantee you that 50 girls aren’t getting off the island.
Subjective factors such as education, personality, looks, money, connections, etc. determine perhaps which 100 girls out of the 150 will get married. No matter how you slice 50 girls can’t married.
squeak – it’s not the male/female split – it’s the age gap/population increase factor – the fact that b”h the population is increasing – in the simplest form – i have 3 daughters (2 years apart) (chasdei hashem all married ) when the first one started school- there were 3 first grades, 2nd one – there were 7 first grades – third one – there were TWELVE first grades – so when they all graduate – the TWELVE first grades, if they are marrying boys two years + older than them – are dealing with the SEVEN or the THREE grades – whereas if you close the age gap, then the three first grade boys are marrying the same age/and probably same amount of girls. This was proven in chassidishe circles where the boys marry at eighteen, nineteen, and are marrying girls that are eighteen, nineteen – and there is no crisis in their circles. I don’t think it’s ‘sounds nice’ – i think it is a real demographic issue – and many people suffer because of it – so whatever it takes – or whatever helps – davening, segullahs, get involved, try making shidduchim, it’s a great and desperate cause – and one you share with Hashem – as that is what Hashem does for a great portion of the day! Make Shidduchim!
Squeak,
I happened to have done some modeling my self. There seem to be to relevant inputs, the growth rate and the average age gap. I assumed the growth rate in the “Yeshivish” community is about 3.5 to 4 percent and the average age gap is somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5 years. Which one of these inputs do you propose to change and by how much.
Getting back to segulos I heard the best segulah for getting married.
Be nice, caring, sweet, neat, well put together.
Do not hurt, insult, hit, or abuse anyone (unless for a good reason obviously).
Anyone care to add anything to this segulah. It is not guarenteed but its the first step to finding a good spouse.
You know, there were times in our history when the chachamim made takanos regarding exactly who could marry whom. It will take that kind of absolute authority for age-restricting to happen. Otherwise, mandating age as the primary criterion will NOT lead to our kids building batei ne’eman b’Yisrael. That is what we have to focus on. Of course they won’t have a happy home unless it’s centered on Torah but we have to stress to our kids that once they get married, every action in life is to geared to will this build our bayis ne’eman.
I’m skeptical about the age thing. Let the boys go out with girls near their age for the first few, but after that, whoever is doing the setting up has to focus on one thing: will these two people be good for each other.
To all my critics: I welcome your challenges; as I have said, I have discussed this extensively with many people to whom this is a “pet theory” and who will virtually lay down all their sanity to defend their conclusion. I have met with the specific questions that you pose, and I am open to discussing them, but first I want clearance to do so. I’m not going to sit here and type out a response to have it deleted as “off topic” or “bad for morale”.
aussieboy
Member
Getting back to segulos I heard the best segulah for getting married.
Be nice, caring, sweet, neat, well put together.
Do not hurt, insult, hit, or abuse anyone (unless for a good reason obviously).
there is never a good reason for hurting, insulting, hitting, and definitely now abuse (physical or verbal) the rest of the comment I agree with, a person has to have some respect for themselves, and have a pleasant demeanor to be likable, if not they need to learn 🙂
Frankly, ames, I doubt it. They haven’t been gracious to me of late. I’m more than a little annoyed.
There are basically two arguments that people make to rationalize (not prove) the theory:
1) More classes per grade in the younger ages than older
2) Chassidishe similar age marriages and the seeming lack of crisis in their circles.
Therefore, different ages of boys and girls makes a “stranded on the island” situation.
I will start with one and see if it gets through.
First, the easy one. The appearance that there is no crisis in the Chassidish circles is a common element of human self-centeredness. If they don’t have “our” issue, we think they must not have any issues. The truth is just the opposite.
There is another phenomenon. Many chassidishe girls are leaving the circles because they are drawn to the so-to-speak mainstream yeshivish type of shidduchim. The Chassidishe boys are actually choosing from a diminishing proportion of girls who choose to buy into a lifestyle that does not allow them to work, drive, have hobbies, in general leave the home, or even date as we do. That, plus the fact that many of them too now want to have a marriage with a husband who is learning full-time for long-term. So what we are seeing there is a girl shortage, instead of a boy shortage. But the Chassidishe boys don’t get “stranded on the island” because they can always make concessions and then tap in to the mainstream shidduch pool. After all, there are many frightened girls out there who will gladly consider a chassidishe boy over being completely stranded. (Hence the famous catch phrase – “His family is chassidish, but you would never know it”. This could mean anything from a boy with Chassidish heritage who learned in litvishe yeshivos, aka a mere gartel wearer, to a fully Chassidish boy who is willing to look outside his own circles rather than getting stranded.)
Let’s see how this goes. I will provide a second installment if it goes through. Who knows – I could make this a serial and get published in some weekly magazine, as I have been accused.
squeak- I actually thought by the Chassidim there are more boys available than girls.
that’s exactly what he just said
woops- I read it wrong…. then I agree. but I don’t know if it’s because the girls are joining less chassidish circles.
Squeak,
In the chassidishe community there is a slight boy problem that is not nearly as significant as the girl problem by the non chasidishe. The reason? POPULATION GROWTH and AGES.
In North America every year their are aprox. 4% more male births than female. This has been documented through extensive studies of hospitals that keep records. This is true for the white caucasian comminity. Being that the chasidishe boys start dating at the same age as the girls (18-19) and frequently they are younger, inevitably in chassidishe circles there will be boys leftover. It is precisely this reason why in the non-chassidishe community we need to close the age gap to aprox. one year ON AVERAGE. Closer than that on average will cause a reverse problem. However the 4% more boys per year is not enough to make up for the difference between the 19yr old and the 22 yr olds. It makes the Problem 10% instead of 14%. 10% girls per year having no shot to get married is pretty serious I think.
AZ, if demographics are going to be the driving force behind making shidduchim, you will need a 1000%, universal gezeirah across the board of all leaders, and guaranteeing bracha and shalom bayis from this. I don’t know if there is that level of ruach hakodesh around these days.
And I really don’t want to go here, but l’misparam it takes a certain amount (and let’s go minimum) to raise a child till 18 (or if you’re offering support, say 28). What are the conclusions we are to draw from THAT???
There is nothing wrong with suggesting a shidduch between 2 parties of the same age, if EVERYTHING else is there. We just can’t make it the defining criterion.
“Has anyone else here done modeling of this theory, or has everone just accepted it because it sounded nice? You know what else sounds nice? The sun going around the Earth, because then we are the center of the universe. “
Squeak, I am totally confused. On the Astronomy thread that is exactly the position you were strongly advocating, that the Sun does go around the Earth. Now you’re going pro-freikeit on us all of the sudden?
I wonder when Joseph is going to reopen up that thread again. 🙂
Before I get in to the second installment, I’d like to respond to one response in irony. It is clear to me that no matter how well I prove my point (which is not at all what I intend to do, I will merely disprove your damaging theory) those who bought in to the “island” theory will never let go of it or be convinced otherwise. I understand that there is nothing I can do about it. But I will state my position for those who are open minded.
AZ: Let’s take for granted that you are correct about there being 4% more boys born than girls. I don’t have that information, so I will accept yours at face value for now. Do you think that this is anything but a short-term phenomena? I guarantee you it is not. This year maybe 4% more boys; next year or in 10 years it will balance out to 50/50 ratio of boys and girls. Let me make 2 points to show you why your information is meaningless:
1) 4% is a very minor divergence (known in statistics as white noise). 52% male and 48% female births every year would over time cause a problem, but one year’s extra girls will be countered by another year’s extra boys. And you think that this small deviation explains BOTH the chassidish girl shortage AND the mainstream boy shortage? Talk about being blinded by your own theories! Trust me that if you aggregate a population pool of 10 years you will get back to 50/50. Except, that…..
2) Male mortality is higher than female mortality. This is also (or should I just say “this is”) documented fact. Like it or not people do die, at all ages. And at younger ages the male deaths are more than 4% higher than female deaths. So in terms of living population, given a 50/50 birth ratio there are always more females on the planet than males. Given a 52/48 ratio it will take time for females to catch up, but they will by age 20.
Not sure if this is a better fit for this topic or the quotes topic, but here goes:
“There are three types of lies — lies, da** lies, and statistics.”
PY, I’m sorry for being so unclear. I think that the Earth goes around the Sun. My point in the other thread (which I hope does not reopen) was that I only think so because I don’t believe Chazal were instructing us to think otherwise. I think that it is allegorical. Had I been taught to accept this Chazal as literal, I would in a heartbeat. And the scientists who can’t even prove the groundwork of their science don’t even come to Chazal’s toes to compete for my trust.
Joseph, please don’t reopen the thread or allow discussions of it to continue in this thread. I just want to be clear that I am not pro-freikeit in any way. Thanks.
Tzippi,
No suggests that age be the driving force behind shidduchim. This issue on hand is making it a focus. There are so many quality 21,22 girls etc. out there. It’s important that the boys be encouraged to go for it. If boys were ready to say the first three girls I date will be within 1 yr of my age, the problem would be greatly resolved. The reason? A overwhelming number of boys get married to one of the first few girls they date. Plus it would remove the stigma from dating a girls who suffers from the “why isn’t she married already” syndrome known to many boys.
AZ – have you ever tried to reason with a politician (or a Rush/Sean chossid)? You can’t. Because they have talking points. That they will endlessly repeat at you. No matter how little relevance those points have.
That is how you sound now in your response to tzippi.
Az, I really don’t get you. I really don’t. Guys first get married at 23 because they are not ready before hand. Girls first get married at 19 because they are ready for it. It would be disastrous to make guys get married too soon, or to have perfectly capable girls “sit in the freezer”. What is your argument?
Additionally, it was so nice of you to tell us what you are really trying to say:
>>Plus it would remove the stigma from dating a girls who suffers from the “why isn’t she married already” syndrome known to many boys<<
That is it!! it isn’t about age gap!, It is about unfair stigmas. It is a perverted logic to think that something is “wrong” with a girl because she did not find her match in her first 18 months of dating! That is what this is about, stop blinding us, and yourself with this bologna of an “age gap”
squeak
You have not addressed the issue. Do you agree that the growth rate is somewhere near 3.5% and the average age gap is between 2.5 and 3.5 years. If yes then how can these “inputs” not cause a problem. If not which one do you disagree with.
All you have done is presented a theory (without evidence) as to why the problem would be shifted.
As for the ratio of boys to girls born it seems to be a consistent 104.9 to 100 or so you can get the exact numbers by year on the CDC web site. You can also search for “sex ratio” for a discussion of the ratio of boys to girls born.
Boys do die at a faster rate but it takes until about age 60 for girls to catch up.
Here is a site with death rate by age and gender.
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/Death%20rates%202005.html
I believe the information comes from the CDC and is also available on their web site but I don’t have time to look right now.
Jay Matt19,
I apologize if you are uncomfortable with the facts. Presently there are in the dating pool of older guy and girls (defined by not married after having been dating more than 5 years each). The girls out mnumber the guys by over 2,000. This is a direct result of the inequity of the numbers. It may be true that girls are ready to get married at 19. It may be true that boys under 23 are not, (although that’s highly debatable. In all likelihood there isn’t much difference between boys who are almost 22 and 23 year olds). In any event we can continue to do what we are doing and be guaranteed to have ongoing similar reslults of hundreds soon to be thousands of girls never getting married and never having children.
As Einstein said the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. This is where the non chasidishe community finds itself regarding shidduchim.
As previously reported:
“There are three types of lies — lies, da** lies, and statistics.”
Just because there are more women then men who have not found their match after dating 5 years DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL NOT GET MARRIED, NOR DOES IT MEAN SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM!! (I’m not arguing fact, I think you are using statistics to skew the reality!)
By your own admission the stigma is the issue, stop trying to encourage marriages which will end in divorce because guys need to get married earlier to satisfy your agenda.
As Einstein said the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. Do you think that by saying the same pointless mantra over and over again will make us accept your conclusions deduced from your equations any more?
The issue is NOT stigma. The issue is that on the island there are many many more girls than guys. The reason for that is simply age gap. Unless a concerted effort is made to even out the numbers, a very significant numbers of girls will never get married. Obviously not being married at 24 doesn’t mean a girl will never get married. However even if every guy 30-35 got married tomorrow to (girls obviously) there will still be hundred and hundreds of girls left out. Those girls in all likelihood will never get married because I don’t see any time soon that 25 year old boys will in large numbers marry 29-34 year old girls.
As mox eloquently pointed out
“Do you agree that the growth rate is somewhere near 3.5% and the average age gap is between 2.5 and 3.5 years. If yes then how can these “inputs” not cause a problem. If not which one do you disagree with.”
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