Shidduch Priorities

Chazal specifically teach to look for a Bas Talmid Chochom. Another aspect Chazal teach, is to look at the midos of the girls brothers (as it will reflect how her children will be.)

1, but only if the guy thinks 5 is true.

#5 for sure! But there are so many different priorities within the #5! What “amazing” means in High school does not necessary mean “amazing”. I know many “amazing” girls who were in my class in high school who I would not want to touch with a 10-ft. pole (nor would i want my 5th cousin to!)

priorities #1-75 is middos!

#76-100- is a relatively decent amount of brains.

obviously there are many sources from chazal that say that the other choices are VERY important as mentioned above. So it’s not just nonsense. I’m just wondering if it is a GIVEN that you would look for a girl with fine middos and qualities and then once that is established check out the brothers, father, cousin’s cat’s neighbor’s friend’s wife.

I think this is an excellent topic. Why dont we think practically and logically?

You know what they say ‘ver hot de maya hot de daya’

The Baal Tzedakah(2), if serious, can be all the rest as well.

He has the time, so he can be mekayem the mitzvah of Koveah Beitim,

He gives tzedakah, so that sort of makes him and askan as well, and he will be able to support his son in law in learning for as long as he wants,which is a zechus as well!

If he happens to have th yichus and a good girl, well then thats what it takes.

The other three on the other hand, are beautiful attributes, but they stand alone and cant neccessarily be included with the others.

Gavra_at_wrok – My thoughts exactly. To quote, “Please explain why #5 can not be assessed on a date, and if not, what is the purpose in dating?”

Mr. Nameless – not every girl is a 1, 2, 3 or 4.

The purpose of the date is to find ot how #5 she is and if thats compatible with your level and goals.

Mr. Wolf’s words are worth repeating, as he put it so eloquently, “you’re marrying her. You have to make sure that *she* is someone whom you can live with. You have to make sure that *she* has the middos that you want in a future spouse, that *she* shares the same hashkafah as you, that *she* is someone whom you can get along with and that *she* is someone with whom you want to spend every day of the rest of your life.”

B’haztlacha!

Squeak: I thought when we were dating, do think now, and will always think/feel my spouse is amazing (no matter the surprises). I feel sorry for those who do not, and do not understand why someone would marry (if you are) a spouse who they do not feel is amazing (with the exception of an arraigned marrige).

To Mrs. nameless:

cc squeak:

point 1: of course.

point 2: of course.

Still not sure where you are going. #5 (spouse is amazing) is still the only thing that is meakkev. If one feels #5 is not true, why are they getting married? (execpt for Yussel’s svarah)

i recently learned perek chaf daled in sefer bereishis, which describes how eliezer went about looking for a shidduch for yitzchak. the Torah is timeless, so listen carefully:

When eliezer got to charan, he said a tefilah to Hashem–it duznt say that outright in the passuk though that vayispallel elizer….it just says vayomer. Seforno and the Kli Yakar, and many others including the Ibn Ezra state that what he is doing is davening to Hashem, and that THE FIRST STEP IN LOOKING FOR A SHIDDUCH IS TO DAVEN.

now the question is what should you daven for?

this Q is answered by the same meforshim: when eliezer asks in his tefillah for a girl that will do “yoter mimah she’shual mimenna,” more than what shes asked to do (meaning, shell gove water to eliezer AND his camels), he is asking for a girl that has the MIDAH OF GMILAS CHESSED and NEDIVUS(generosity). step #2= LOOKING FOR MIDDOS. the Kli Yakar also explains that when it says that Rivkah ran back and forth to draw water, it shows us her middah of ZRIZUS.

after that, you can base it on your numbers

good luck

Yussel: What a sad existence you must lead. I don’t care about money or status symbols and I never will. Are you seriously saying that money is the deciding factor for you when choosing a partner for you and a mother to your children? How pathetic.

I think the issue here is that #5 is not worded well. Much of the argument that has come up has arisen because of this wording. Obviously, it is impossible for a man to assess after one date whether or not he thinks the woman is “amazing”. So how does he decide whether or not to see her again? (After several dates, he might think she’s amazing- but the issue is how to get there.) However, replace “amazing” with “good middot” (which is how most of the posters here seem to have interpreted it) and now it works. Clearly, middot come first, and I would be shocked if anyone here thought otherwise. And, as The Wolf said, a man marries a woman, not a father-in-law. It’s certainly very important to build a good relationship with the woman’s father, but he should not be cross-examined as a precursor to deciding whether or not to date or marry her.

I am not in the shidduch world, but if I were, it seems I would have a problem. Since everyone is so worried about the woman’s father being a talmid chacham, baal tzedakah, etc. how would I find a shidduch, being that my father is deceased? (And even if he were living, he was a baal teshuvah and a college professor of modest means, so he would lose on both counts! Of course, he learned and gave tzedakah while he was alive, but if it were a contest of who learns the most or gives the most tzedakah, he would not win for the reasons stated above.) But does any of this really reflect so badly on me? I don’t think so.

Despite what some of you may think of me based on my modern opinions, I will humbly submit that I believe I am basically a good person and a good Jew. Of course, I have my faults, as does everyone, but at the core I do everything I do in life for the sake of serving Hashem, and isn’t that what really matters? Do you think it would be fair for someone to turn me down as a potential shidduch just because my father is no longer alive, or because he was not the biggest Talmid Chochom around?

I actually believe that I have become a stronger person because of the ordeal that Hashem put me through as a child (I was ten when my father was diagnosed with cancer and twelve when he died.) I take life more seriously now and am more contemplative rather than just “going with the flow”. I also have more sensitivity to others’ feelings and more faith in Hashem. My deeply rooted belief in and love of Hashem developed during those two horrific years, as I saw that my family and I endured despite the fact that we seemed on the brink of collapse. I was so young, I didn’t yet have the inner reserves of strength that my mother seemed to draw on, so how did I possibly make it through the hell that became my life? Even more so, how did my brother, who is 5 1/2 years younger than I am, get through it? Only with Hashem’s help (and, of course, as I later realized, it was He who guided my mother through the experiences that gave her those reserves of strength which He knew she would later need!) So of course I would do anything to have my father back in my life, but since I have to accept that he is gone, I also recognize that losing him helped me to grow as a person, and I have noticed that it is sometimes difficult for me to relate to girls my age because, having gone through this test, I have come out of it a different person with different priorities. It’s not c’v that I think I’m better than they are; it’s just that we are coming from very different places. I was forced to grow up a lot quicker than is normal since I had an adult experience as a child. It just puts me on a different playing field than everyone else- I matured early, so I might stand out in that regard compared to other girls my age. The point of all this is that, if I’m not mistaken, maturity should also be something that a man looks for in a wife, as well as ahavat shamayim, yirat shamayim and deep emunah. As I described above, I believe that I have these qualities as a direct result of my father’s death. So if you look at it this way, a man might reject me without realizing that I should be at the top of his list!

I don’t know how any of this is coming across and I really did not mean to make this about me, it’s just that the subject touches a raw nerve. I’m sorry to have gone on for so long about something so personal, and I hope no one is offended in any way by this. I just think that there is something seriously wrong with the shidduch scene if it’s more important to ask who the girl’s father is than who she is.

Nameless,

The Gemara (pesachim 49b)clearly says that a person should (even) sell all his possesions to marry a bas talmid chochom & IF HE CAN”T FIND ONE than he should marry the daughter of Gedolai Hador. R’ Aharon Kotler pointed out that from here we see that the Gadol Hador does not have to be a Talmid Chochom. (He was referring to Mike Tress).

Mind you, the Gemara still says to first look for a bas talmid chochom.

JF02, I am really so sad for the tzaar you have experienced at such a young age. I am in total agreement that the middos of the person, male OR female, are more important than yichus, learning, money, or anything else. It seems that in spite of your losing your father at such a tender and influential age, that he raised a fine daughter in the short time he had with you.

I think that it is equally important for boys and girls to watch how their prospective in-laws interact with each other, before making a final decision whether or not to get married. Children often imitate what they have seen in the home Does the father treat the mother with respect, do the siblings seem to love each other, are they comfortable whent hey are all together , these are the things I want to know.

for all those who are saying that money should not be a factor: say you have two girls of equal caliber. Both have great middos, are smart and pretty fine girls who do chesed and are careful in their actions. Both come from ehrliche families and have learned fathers. The only thing distinguishing the two is that one is from a wealthy family, and one is not. Is it ok then for a boy to go for the money first?

grappling: granted, but lacking those specifications described, going for the money is bound to lead to trouble and regret.

let’s not kid ourselves, be honest, Hashem did create some people with more Chein than others. In fact we daven ” Shenimtza Chein V’sachel Tov beinei Elokim V’adam” It is natural while dating to be attracted to someone with nice looks. It is also natural to be enticed by someones Yichus, or by the fact the father is a Talmid Chachem etc. The point is to faocus on priorites, and to keep the points that REALLY matter on the forefront.

But yichus has no effect on the girl! As I said before- some girls act like their father’s are roshei yeshivos when they are baalabatish and some do not. I mean that those without the yichus were the ones getting the midos awards ect and the ones with the yichus were the trouble-makers in the class. Same with the boys! Some budding talmedai chachamim are from non-yichus families while those with yichus sometimes are the lazy/not so smart ect. Look at the individual child!

re heimisheyid: many people have “chashuve” zaides but they have to go back many generations, or don’t know.

And if being at such a seder does make one chashuv, then so does davening consistently with neimus and kavana, and doing chesed, and having exemplary middos, etc. So if that’s your definition of yichus then there’s hope 😉

BS”D

Please.

The only characteristics that are important are:

1) Height over 5’4′

2) Size no more than 2 so that weight is no more than 110 (that is pounds).

3) Shabbos tablecloth is white

4) Father of kallah wears same style and same brim size hat as chosson; it is even better if they have the same head size (what is in the head is of no consequence so long as the hat matches on both sides).

5) Father has a Lexus; doesn’t matter if he is in the red every month on lease payments and definitely does not matter if he is involved in stuff that could land him a 10 year shteler as the rosh koilel at Otisville.

6) TV only in closet

7) Internet filter but not at the office.

8) Went to the right sem and therefore can cook a chicken properly and make kugel in the same (Litvish, Poylish, Oberland, Ingarish etc) style that the chosson’s mother cooks in.

9) Mother wears same head covering that chosson’s mother does (again remember only the covering counts).

10) If you need any more criteria like this, I feel sorry for your daughter-in-law!

Itzik…. unfortunatly, many people find these things real and “musts”.

I have heard that people will not use colored tablecloths or plastic on them and they wont have their daughters/sons marry into families that do.

What is the problem with today’s world? Many people really do look for these things, but when not in the market or have a child in the market they criticize those who do want these things. People are hipocritical. When looking for a chosun/kallah- remember a basic rule that I think should be asked before rejecting outright (before the first date)-Is there anything major that should prevent the couple from living a Torah lifestyle and having a happy marriage? cooking styles or size of hat brim really do not make a difference in the end, IY”H 30 years down the line. (ie- are they from the same basic spot on the hashkafa spectrum and i do not mean exact same but if they are around the same area- that is whats important.)

One question tho… please explain , “definitely does not matter if he is involved in stuff that could land him a 10 year shteler as the rosh koilel at Otisville.” is that a prison?