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Being married to a BT, I can speak from experience. I am fortunate that my husband is a wonderful, loving, chessed filled man, from whom most frum people could learn a thing or two about menschlechkeit. That said, it has not always been an easy ride. My dad O”H really missed having a mechutan with whom he had Torah in common, who would have understood and appreciated the Divrei Torah my father said over at the Sheva Brachos, and many other similar occasions, like brissim, Bar-Mitzvahs,etc. My parents and my in-laws got along really beautifully, but it was a very superficial, pleasant relationship, because the only thing they had in common was us and the grandchildren (which is true for many both-sides-frum machetonim).
It IS difficult when one side is completely frei, unless every single member of that side has total respect for the religious couple. We got into trouble when family members married “out,” and there were hard feelings on their part when we did not attend their celebrations. I davened for only female children to be born to those relatives, so that at least the grandchildren’s children would be assured of being Jewish (and B”H so it was).
Personally, I believe it is easier for two BT to marry and grow together in their learning and Yiddishkeit, but that should not stop someone from redting a shidduch with someone who is FIRMLY entrenched in Yiddishkeit. Someone who is newly frum is another story, to me. I would want to see the level of their commitment, first. I have seen people flip in and flip out, and I have seen BT FRUM relatives who married into my family, who divorced, and then became frei again. This is not an easy question to answer.
No one who is sincere, should be “barred” from good shidduchim, but unquestionably one has to use seichel when redting to them.
“To put it starkly and I really hope I don’t offend anybody: We all try and integrate disabled people into mainstream life as best as possible. Would you accuse an able-bodied person who turns down a disabled shidduch as being stigmatizing, disgusting and feh to the system. I don’t think you would because you would recognise their would be a compatibility issue and marital harmony comes before any issues of non-discrimination.”
there is a significant difference between someone who is disabled and someone who may otherwise be perfect but who is afforded no chance by the system. i can understand why someone would not want to marry a person that may significantly inconvenience them due to their disability. its sad but understandable. however youre assuming that there is an inherent problem with marrying a BT or someone from a divorced home. that one comes with the other. and that cannot be further from the truth. you assume that there cannot be harmony between teh mainstream and the BTs and kids of divorced parents and thats offensive.
and yes. i know there are no kol korehs about not marrying BTs and those from divorced families. and i know its a capitalist system. i also know that its disgusting and that it MUST change. there really is no good reason for it. i eman even being subjective about looks is a better reason! theres no point marrying someone you arent attracted to. now maybe you have to work on yourself if youre too choosy and shallow when it comes to looks but everyone has a baseline. but to be categorically opposed to someone who is not like you in history…is wrong.
you all know it. and of you dont you all SHOULD know it. peopel always try and come up with reasons for their prejudices whether those reasons are justifiable or not. so i cant fault you for trying…but seriously. youre wrong.
bombmaniac
Calm down! You don’t find BT to be an issue so go out with that kind. People who have a problem with it won’t. Ze hu!
I do agree with you though that the system is messed up.
BPT-
“Is your friend 2nd rate because she has divorced family members?”
No she is not second rate at all but would you want your son marrying into a family that isnt a family and having to deal with all the issues that may come along with having divorced in laws? Do you want your grandchildren growing up without having another loving bubby and zaidys warm house to go to? I hate it as much as you do, but if you think about it from a different perspective, why get involved with all that if you dont have to?
“That statement galls me. The “names” are people, not satistics.”
It galls alot of people but thats the reality. Its no secret that the way our shidduch process works is less than ideal
Observantteen-
“But I still want to share my simcha with my friends…I hope I’m not annoying!”
Its very hard to be conscious of how much you speak about your chosson because you probably have your head in the clouds, but for your friends sakes and your own, try your hardest to keep it minimal. I would talk to this friend privately and try to give her chizuk and tell her youre davening for her. Also, your world just doubled- now you can help find her a shidduch because you know all these new people that your chosson and his family knows
Oomis-
“Is it HER fault that her parents couldn’t make their marriage work?”
No its not her fault but thats where Hashem put her and thats her nisayon right now. Its not someones fault if they have a mental illness either but you say that they can probably get any regular shidduch?
bombmaniac-
“name me ONE good reason why someone from a broken home is incapable of themselves building a loving home?! “
No one ever said that someone from from a broken home is incapable of building a loving one. There are a lot of other things involved other than the boy/girl themselves. most people are also looking for a nice warm loving family to join instead of a broken one that may place great stress on their lives in many areas. They also can never understand their spouse fully, having never known what a childhood like that is like. People like to marry someone with a similar background. Men and women have enough differences that its worthwhile to look for someone from the same background to minimize the differences and help shalom bayis.
bombmaniac: I accept there is a difference between the disabled analogy and BTs.
I have not however assumed that that ‘there cannot be harmony etc.’. If you read my posts carefully you will see that I said only that there was an increased chance of marital disharmony. No inherent unavoidable problem ch’v- just a real POSSIBILITY that there can be a compatibility issues. Again – it’s COMPATIBILITY. That means not that neither the Bt nor the FFB is in any way inferior Heaven Forbid – just together they may not jell. (I have the greatest respect for BTs. If I were not fortunate enough myself to have been brought up in a frum family, I cannot put hand on heart and say I would have made the sacrifices and gone through the struggles Bts have gone through.)
So its not about STIGMA or INFERIORITY. Its about COMPATIBILITY. Just that the two histories, experiences and upbringings can bring out a discord later
lol its not for my benefit…my problem is with people who have a problem with it because there really is no good reason for it.
bomb- maybe this is just to strengthen your emunah. you think its harder for Hashem to send you your zivug than for a “regular” boy? Let me clue you in, its not. its all the same to Him.
no. i dont plan on using a normal shadchan. ill either go to my rav or people i know (parents of friends…family friends…etc…) it just galls me to think that others think me inferior for no good reason.
to all those who are talking about compatibility…let the two parties decide??? why must shadchanim automatically filter it by “family type x” and “family type y?” although to be fair im placing all the blame on the shadchanim and not enough on everyone else…its wrong to deny someone a chance at your son or daughter solely on the basis of religious and/or family history. its unfair and wrong. and its, frankly, quite hurtful. everyone can have problems. mainstream people, BTs, those from divorced families, those without families such as orphans, everyone has problems. but to deny someone access to your kids because of a problem they MAY have due to something out of their control is awful.
i should probably allow for a distinction as far as baalei teshuva are concerned. someone who is a tinok shenishbuh, i can understand, would be viewed differently than someone who went off the derech and came back on. i dont like it…but i can understand it. so perhaps i should have made that distinction earlier. that being said, what good is teshuva if its not accepted? if its good enough for hashem should it not be good enough for us?
this is slightly unrelated but it reminds me of a shmuz by rabbi shaeffer on teh subject of “religious atheism” IOW the idea that you know the torah better than hashem does. a guy separated from his wife, she has teh kids. hes refusing to give a get. so he comes to this guy and asks him why he refused. he said because hes concerned that if she remarries teh new husband might not have the same ideals in chinuch as he does. to which rabbi shaeffer (i think it was him who was talking to teh guy…eitehr way the story stands) replied but its halacha…the guy refused.
so he asks the guy, what if rav elyashuv came and told you to give a get, would you? teh guy said no…im worried about the chinuch of my child. so he goes further…if eliyahu hanavi came and told you to give a get, would you? teh guy said no. if a bas-kol came out of shamayim and told you to give a get, would you? he said no. so teh rav gave up. teh guy clearly isnt following the torah for hashem’s sake but for his own. he doesnt have the emunah and bitachon necessary to realize that hashem made teh halacha allowing for all kinds of circumstances, his included. so he refused to give the get.
i think its similar to our discussion. everyone keeps saying how lofty baalei teshuva are, that they are in a higher place than even teh greatest tzaddik for what they did. yet no one wants to touch them. everyone tells them to have bitachon yet no one has enough bitachon to trust that maybe hashem knows what hes doing when it comes to baalei teshuva. bitachon apparently only works when its convenient. im willing to bet that if you asked teh gedolim about marrying baalei teshuva and those from divorced homes they would say “check the person out, if theyre sincere, good people, go for it” yet no one does.
so please…the next person who wants to tell me to have bitachon? hold your tongue. i have the necessary bitachon. the question is…do you?
“why get involved with all that if you dont have to?”
You have a point. There are some issues that come with complicated baggage. But y’know what? I (as do most folks) have baggage of my own, so while there are a few cultural challenges people from other zip codes may preclude an easy mesh with my family, unless the girl had horns growing from her head, I will not turn down any serious lead without taking the time to see the girl / family in realtime.
Does that mean I’ll jump on a plane to Rio just becuase someone told me good info? Not in the 1st few years of the search process.
Does that mean I’ll take a drive over to <pick the location, within a 2 hour radius> to see for myself before judging if the data is accurate?
You bet.
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