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I want ….They want ….
I want a learning guy … My parents want a college boy… or I want a college boy… and they want a learning guy.
We find many times that singles and their parents are not looking for the same in a Shidduch. How is a single or their parents supposed to try and find a Shidduch if a Shaddchan calls a parent and the parent says that the single is looking for something else than what the single really wants?
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Difficult, especially when you’re a third party who doesn’t know the people involved.
It’s even harder to the degree that what they tell you is filtered. Is what they say what they actually mean or what they think you want to hear? Do they tell the truth of their hearts or subordinate that to their public faces?
Emmes! Yidden! Say what you think, not what you think people think you should think!
QFT, Mod-42. But how many of us are really honest with ourselves, let alone with other people?
This topic has been discussed so so many times in the coffee room already? DOes this mean that all shidduch topics have been discussed already and we are on for doubles and triples?
This topic has been discussed so so many times in the coffee room already? DOes this mean that all shidduch topics have been discussed already and we are on for doubles and triples?
No. It just means that the Chachmei HaCoffeeRoom have yet to reach a consensus and issue a decision. Thus we are still deliberating. This process can sometimes take years, especially on a tricky issue such as shidduchim.
Hang in there until we reach a verdict. 😉
DENIAL! Parents know exactly what their child wants/needs, but s’pas nisht for there standards to get such a type of shidduch! Therefore they have a complete different ‘shidduch resume’ of what they are looking for!
And what about all the young men still in full time learning who would leave if they could? And they wouldn’t leave for the streets. They’re 25+, want to finish school, work, learn 1 – 2 sedarim a day, but noooo, the type of decent BY girls they want won’t have them. (And on the flip side, what about the girls who would look for that, if THEY had permission to?)
This isn’t a parents/kids dichotomy, it’s the parents AND kids vs. society one.
And no, I don’t believe the system’s failed if there’s a bachur who would voluntarily leave the beis medrash a nanosecond before he has to.
How is a single or their parents supposed to try and find a Shidduch if a Shaddchan calls a parent and the parent says that the single is looking for something else than what the single really wants?
I don’t see what the problem is. If the parent tells you one thing and the single tells you another, I feel that you, as the shadchan, have two options:
1. Tell the parents and the child to come up with one set of criteria that they can both agree on (preferred option).
2. Ignore the parents and focus on what the single wants.
Why ignore the parents? Because ultimately, it’s the single who is getting married and has to live with the decision for the rest of his/her life, not the parents. Again, I’m not saying that parents should be disregarded in a shidduch situation, but, when push comes to shove, if the two cannot (or will not) agree, then you have to go with the single’s preferences.
The Wolf
I think this is a big problem. I run a shidduch group and countless times (yes countless times) we have problems because the parents want/need? something different than their children want. In some cases we feel parents are looking for a “suitable” family rather than a suitable partner.
From a purely business perspective the shadchan has to consider the Golden Rule: “He who has the gold makes the rules.”
But ultimately what the parents want is of secondary importance. A dutiful son or daughter honors and listens to their advice. But it’s the kid, not Mom and Dad, who are getting married.
Anuran, I strongly disagree. The Halachos of Kibbud Av V’Em continue to apply after one is married as well, although a woman’s obligations are first to her husband. The love, respect and caring that you feel for your spouse and children are different, but they do not negate the feelings you continue to have for your parents, and while new responsibilities are added and may sometimes take precedence over others, your parents are your parents forever!
To Wolf and Anuron – I think that this inyan is a complicated one. I personally know of an incident where a boy wanted one thing and the parents wanted another. The parents were different than the boy and didn’t really know him, which frustrated the boy as he really wanted to get married and couldn’t find himself with the shidduchim that his mother suggested. He was known to some truly solid, yeshivish woman in the area who wanted to help him, and they found a girl who according to everyone’s opinion, was perfect for this boy. The women contacted the parents who refused the shidduch. These women were terribly upset and frustrated for the boy, so they contacted a Rov who told them that they must work with the parents, and were not to try to do anything without their consent.
This is the real end of the story.
It just so happens that a year later, both the girl and the boy were married to someone else.
Tupim, this is one of those things which goes down to the base of who one is as a human being. If we met face to face and talked it out we would probably find that our positions were very close. The differences come from life experiences, subtle differences in the way we were raised, the relationships which we admired and the ones which bothered us when we were very young and everything was still magical.
Maybe restating it will help?
A child should always honor his or her parents and respect their opinions. Loving parents want what’s best for their children and would like them to avoid the last generation of mistakes and regrets. No arguments there. But ultimately our children are themselves. They have to live their own lives, make adult decisions as adults and answer for it to the Final Judge.
When we are infants we cannot make choices, and as little children the decisions we make have small consequences. Growth is a process of making the harder choices and taking responsibility for the results.
A good person honors his or her parents and would rather do almost anything than directly oppose them.
A good parent doesn’t push things to the point where the son or daughter has to make that choice. If you force that choice you’ve already lost.
Ir,
You misinterpreted what I said. I didn’t say to completely ignore the parents. Certainly a young single should consider his/her parents’ advice in these matters. But s/he is NOT bound to them. In fact, the halacha in this area is pretty clear — if you father tells you to marry someone whom you do not want to, you DO NOT have to obey him.
The same applies here. It would be great if the single and the parents could come up with a single set of criteria for a spouse. But if, in the end, they cannot or will not agree, and the shadchan has to go with one over the other, then the shadchan MUST go according to the wishes of the single. To say otherwise would be to say that the single must date (and possibly) marry someone they don’t want.
The Wolf
Ir…I also personally know a similar story, where the parents were not in touch with what their daughter really wanted and needed….and this girl consulted daas torah after she met a boy whom she felt was right for her but her parents object…well guess what daas torah( and im talking a few great rabbanim) decided in that situation that parents have no place to object to it and she can marry him! my point: everyone can bring a story with different outcome…however every person should consult daas torah,because whats right for one person can be totally different to someone else!!
the fact that in your story the boy and girl married someone else is irrelevant…the point is that they consulted a rov and for that situation he felt parents should be involved.
I can tell you from the personal story i quoted, the couple is happily married and the parents have learned to embrace situation with open arms and they did! had she been told my “well meaning” people that she must listen to her parents and followed that…well I don’t know what would have happened, but my guess would be she would not have married the boy she felt was perfect for her!
its very tricky when it comes to parents, because they are blinded by their love for their child and at times blinded by peer pressure as well or at times by their unrealistic hopes for their child to marry the “best” of the “best”. so sometimes they need the unbiased toradik third party to help them see things clearly.
Unfortunately in the last few months we have had quite a few divorces. It has come to light that in most cases the parents were looking for a good family rather than what could make their child happy.
EstherH, a good family is very important!! Obviously the boy has to be….
There are some things parents with their life experience know that young adults, as mature as they are, did not yet learn.
There is a reason the shulchan aruch says a person doesn’t need to heed his parents reagrading a shidduch. That – and a place to learn Torah – are the only situations that it mentions. Ir – i don’t like that story for this reason.
When I redt a shidduch i am very careful to ask “What is your son/daughter looking for”? When i hear the person veer off again into her or his wants for their child I say that’s admirable and understandable but our children are not necessarily carbon copies of us so what are they looking for?
Parents who ignore who their child truly is and ignore’s their needs and wants, will only waste their child’s and the other prospects time and energy on unsuccessful meetings and dates. They will postpone their child’s wedding and will cause tremendous friction and frustration in their relationship with their child and stress in their lives and in their child’s life.
In addition it is a tremendous responsibility to assume. If we think we have the right to decide or choose who our children should marry and they are not happy or they end up c”v in divorce are we prepared to handle the guilt and be accountable for that outcome? Personally I am not. When children are old enough to get married and handle the relationship of marriage, they are old enough and should be trusted enough to know and understand what is important to them in a spouse and what they are attracted to.
If a boy is foolish enough to want only a skinny anorexic size 2 girl and the parents keep choosing hefty young ladies for him, he will be stuck going out with them but will never agree to marry them. If parents want their daughter to only marry a learning boy and those are the only boys that ring her bell, she will go out with them but will never agree to marry them no matter how much the parents push. If a young woman wants only a college grad and the parents choose a boy from a wealthy family that works for this parents, it just won’t work because that girl is probably looking for a more intelligent, well educated and well rounded young man, not just someone who can make a living.
So please understand it is not a matter of kibud av-v’em. It is a matter of life and a successful future. We are literally holding our children’s future lives in our hands and we can’t take that lightly. They are not pawns on a chessboard that can just be maneuvered around or placed in the right hole, or told what to do. They have brains and hearts, needs and feelings and they have to be heard and validated.
Hopefully parents have spent enough time raising children and being a good role model for them, have given them the proper chinuch, the basics of right and wrong and good strong jewish education. Hopefully if parents are involved in their children’s shidduchim there is a sense of trust and reason as well as communication between them. So at this point in their road to adulthood and maturity it is time for parents to listen to understand.
Aries, that sort of parent won’t take responsibility for the his or her actions. If the marriage works, they take credit. If the marriage fails it’s the child’s fault.
Anuran, and that is why the Torah gives us guidelines and Rabbonim will advise on the side of the kids.
and Rabbonim will advise on the side of the kids
A “kid” does need to go to a rav to say no to a date.
The Wolf
Here’s my two cents: Parents are older and wiser and should be relied upon for advice and guidance. But at the end of the day, it is the child who is getting married and therefore the child’s decision to make. Also, although every parent loves and wants the best for their child, they are not objective and can have judgment that is just as skewed as that of an infatuated youth. There is a reason why halacha does not obligate a child to marry the parents’ choice.
wolfishmusings and potsandpans – thank you for your clarification. My point was, as you both are saying, the boy/girl really does need to be in touch with das Torah to know that they are objectively doing their hishtadlus. I guess that I’m a little sensitive here, because my own son was encouraged to go out and marry a girl that my husband and myself knew was not good for him. The outcome – he unfortunately has come to understand how right we were, and he is trapped. As parents, we stand by him, and are encouraging him to seek the help that he needs to pick himself up, keep this marriage together, and grow with this nisayon. But there is no simple answer to this question, and it is true that many parents today are out of touch with their children. But there is another side to be considered, that many boys and girls who are in the parsha are temimusdik and naive and just not equipped to make such a decision on their own – like my son. A “top” yeshiva bochur who only cared about his learning and shteiging – and knew nothing about shidduchim, and was easily farfeert.
WolfishMusings and potsandpans – thank you for your clarification. I am sensitive to this topic because my own son was redt a shidduch who my husband and I both felt would not be good for him. It is now three years later, and unfortunately we were right, and our son is suffering. We are supportive of him and are encouraging him to seek the help he needs so that he can get back on his feet, and pull himself and hopefully his marriage together, so that he can grow with this nisayon. From my perspective, I think that many of today’s youth entering the parsha, are just not ready to make such a decision on their own. It’s not like twenty or thirty years ago, when their was a maturity level that was reached before boys and girls started to go on shidduchim. Today, it’s a function of time, the girl comes home from seminary, or the boy from E”Y, and the question of whether or not they are ready is just not on the table. And, on the other hand, I know only too well how right you are that many parents today are completely out of touch with their children, and who they really are, implying greater maturity on the part of the child than the parent. For this reason, I stand by what I said, that this question is very complicated, and Das Torah should be consulted because of the individuality of every situation, calling for individual responses.
For this reason, I stand by what I said, that this question is very complicated, and Das Torah should be consulted because of the individuality of every situation, calling for individual responses.
Ir, perhaps you can clarify your position for me, because I’m a bit confused. Are you suggesting that a person must consult (and follow) “Da’as Torah” for every shidduch that they are redt? Are you saying that they have to consult a rav before saying “yes” or “no” to a date?
If that’s the case, then I must severely disagree with you. I believe that no one knows a single (and what he or she wants) better than themselves. Not the parents and surely not the family rav or a gadol (or whomever qualifies as “Da’as Torah” for you). Can they advise and guide? Surely, and I think that their input can be valuable. But to decide for the single? No — a million times no!
The Wolf
It is very sad when one reads that boys are not mature nor are they thinking of getting married when parents push them to date and get married. If a boy’s head is only in learning and not in finding his soul mate, then he is definitely not ready to get married. Boys who are entering the shidduch arena, rather young men entering the shidduch arena need to be prepared for the responsibility of marriage and relationships. That in itself causes friction and problems in marriage. Marriage is not a transfer from your parents’ home to a home with a wife where the wife takes over the role of the mother. So if a bochur is not mature enough or is not truly thinking about marriage, that is a situation that has to be dealt with before he starts dating. Even if the parents pick the perfect girl for him, they cannot move in with them and direct or orchestrate his emotions, reactions, contributions, responses, attentiveness, appreciation, gratitude and love for his wife.
I didn’t mean to confuse anyone. I thought that this discussion was the question of whether or not/how to redt a shidduch if parents and children want two different things. As for the boy or girl, I would again, say, that it depends on how old and mature they are. If they are young, then they are safer being connected to someone who knows them and can guide them in a Torahdik way. Usually, this is how it works, even if the parents agree, that the boy or girl discuss a shidduch that they are serious about with a Torahdik person, whether or not you want to call it Das Torah. If the boy or girl is older and/or more mature, it probably isn’t practical or necessary, as you said, for the boy or girl to have to consult someone before every shidduch that comes in. Once the boy or girl has their mahalach I would imagine that they would consult someone, again, only if the shidduch is serious. It is really tough to feel that such a weighty decision needs to be decided alone. Most boys and girls want the input and guidance.
The only point that I am suggesting is that before a person redts a shidduch to a young, immature, and temimusdik boy or girl without parental approval or consent, to realize that this is a heavy achrayus – the shadchan, friends, etc. walk away from it after the chuppah, but the ones left coping with the outcome of the decsions are the chosson or kallah themselves, and parents. I certainly would not want such an achrayus. That’s why, based on the individual nature of every situation, a shidduch that you know lechatchila is against the parent’s wishes probably should be with Das Torah, to be sure that you are in the right to suggest and push such a shidduch.
aries2756 – they may in fact be looking for a soul mate, and truly be ready for the responsibility of marriage. They may just not know exactly how to teich out each date, each nuance, each subtlety that becomes overt after a wedding. And once in the parsha, people on the outside become experts and in today’s world, even in the Torah world, are telling the boys that they don’t have to listen to their parents, because they know better. Boys get confused – why shouldn’t they? They can be temimusdik – this does not have to mean that they are not responsible, or not ready to get married.
I just read an article from a boy, a couple of weeks ago, in the Five Towns Jewish Times. This boy, a yeshiva bochur, described in the article how he missed the signs in the shidduch process, and “feels trapped”, as he is very unhappy. It didn’t sound to me that this boy was from a closed minded background, as he stated in the article how his parents always had families over on Shabbosim, with daughters, and he felt comfortable speaking with them. He went on to say how this did not help him at all, once he started in shidduchim.
So there is no pat answer for everyone. I’m just raising some points that may be considered before someone takes an achrayus of redting a shidduch to a boy or girl who will not be connected to a Torahdik mensch.
Ir, if they’re ready to marry and have children they are old enough to die in battle or childbirth, enter into contracts, drink, operate heavy machinery or own repeating firearms. At some point you grow up and are an adult who makes adult decisions. If you aren’t by the time you marry something has gone terribly wrong, and you have no business being a spouse or parent.
IR, “boys” who get married should be considered “men” and once they are married they should not be running back to their parents for advice. They should be discussing everything with their spouse and only discuss with parents when they both agree to do so. It is better for a young couple to consult a Rav or a guidance counselor if they have a personal or marital issue before going to parents. I remember in my own “Kallah” class many, many, moons ago the teacher said “Neither one of you should go back with your problems to your parents. Because YOU will forgive each other and move on, but PARENTS will never forget or forgive when their child has been hurt.” That was good advice then and it is good advice now.
Couples should be able to run their own marital household without their parents’ involvement when they get married. And parents should know not to offer advice or pry for information unless and until it is requested.
Young men and women, basically kids, in the shidduch parsha don’t usually have shidduchim redt directly to them rather it is customary to redt the shidduch to the parents. Once a young woman or man have been dating for a long while and have aged up a bit into their early or mid 20’s, then it is appropriate to speak directly to them. Children who are not handling shidduchim on their own usually just give the shadchan their mothers’ number.
“I want a learning guy … My parents want a college boy… or I want a college boy… and they want a learning guy.”
Is it just me, or do others also see the use of the word “guy” when associated with someone learning in yeshiva, but when he is working he is suddenly only a “boy”.
Boy implies young and immature while guy implies someone older and more mature.
Is it just me
To be perfectly fair and honest, I did not catch the distinction. Nor do I believe that the poster intended something by it.
The Wolf
it depends on how old and mature they are. If they are young, then they are safer being connected to someone who knows them and can guide them in a Torahdik way. Usually, this is how it works, even if the parents agree, that the boy or girl discuss a shidduch that they are serious about with a Torahdik person,
One could argue that if they aren’t old and mature enough to know what they want in a potential spouse, then perhaps they aren’t ready to be married at all.
The only point that I am suggesting is that before a person redts a shidduch to a young, immature, and temimusdik boy or girl without parental approval or consent, to realize that this is a heavy achrayus – the shadchan, friends, etc. walk away from it after the chuppah, but the ones left coping with the outcome of the decsions are the chosson or kallah themselves, and parents.
One could argue that you should not be redting shidduchim to “young, immature” boys or girls who, due to their youth and immaturity, cannot or will not accept responsibility for their own decisions. If the answer to a young divorce is “it’s the shadchan’s fault” then perhaps the single in question is just not ready for marriage.
Shadchannim can make recommendations, but they ultimately are not responsible for what happens. If a person is too immature to get married, then they should not go to a shadchan or should just say no if one approaches them. No shadchan forces a person to date and no shadchan forces a person down the aisle.
And lastly, once the wedding happens, the shadchan’s job is over — s/he is NOT a marriage counselor.
The Wolf
If someone is “young” and “immature” he or she has no business getting married. It’s not fair to the person. It’s not fair to the spouse. It is completely irresponsible to do to their children.
If someone is mature enough to enter do responsibly marry, enter into contracts, go to war, die in childbirth, own repeating firearms, run a business and make medical decisions it is past time for the parents to give advice and not make an issue out of it when the adult son or daughter makes an adult decision.
Wolf:
Would someone who learned half a day and attended college half a day be called, a “goy”?
Is it just me, or do others also see the use of the word “guy” when associated with someone learning in yeshiva, but when he is working he is suddenly only a “boy”.
It used to drive me crazy when I was in my 20s and being called a single “girl” while an 18-year-old would be a married “woman.”
However, when a friend who is my age became a “bubby” I didn’t mind being a “girl” as much as I used to.
(BTW, I still won’t admit to being older than 25.) 🙂
“For all those who are Makpid in every word, I will rephrase.”
As a shadchan, you better be makpid on every word.
The one and only shadchan (professional) I ever spoke with, apparently was not. When I told him I had a degree from Touro and the girl he wanted to set me up with specifically told him that she did NOT want to consider someone in college, he decided I was a perfect candidate, after all, since I already had my degree, I was no longer in college. He didnt care what she meant, only what she said. As a shadchan, thats a waste of everyones time. I was so annoyed at him, I threatened him with a din torah for reimbursement of every cent I spent on the date including all travel expenses (gas and tolls) and “entertainment” (ok drinks at a lounge) if he wouldn’t do so on his own.
jphone: The Din Torah would cost you a lot more than the potential payback. Let me guess, you never got refunded.
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