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Being a shadchan i have been thinking long and hard about the situation.I have come to the conclusion that their is no reason for a boy to go to E”Y .25 years ago very few boys went to E”Y and the boys got married at 21.I dont think their were any problems with learning after you get married or going to E”Y after the chasana .The boys are going to american yeshivos with boys that they were learning with in N.Y .They can do the same in Lakewood.If they were going to Israeli yeshivos like Ponovitz or Chevron where they want to learn from the Israeli derech maybe i can understand,but lets not kid our selfs from the top metzun to the average boy they can shteig just as well in lakewood,ofcourse the boys have a geshmaka time in a good way,but we are paying a very high price .We have girls waiting for the boys to come home when they should have been here 2 years ago.Their is no reason why a boy cant shteig after the chasana and even go then to E’Y and shteig and have a geshmaka time with his wife!The boys should come to Lakewood when they are 20 or 21 stay in the freezer for 3 month to feel what it means to learn in Lakewood and then start shiduchim.Freezer is another topic not to go into now.I think parents of boys enjoy sending their sons to E”Y so they have a reason to go their .It is a wonderful excuse to go,Because most parents have no say about when they go and where they are going to learn.they are just told after they spoke to their Rosh Hayeshiva .My point is The Rosh Hayeshivos of all yeshivos have to get together and come out with a takana that boys will go to N.Y yeshivos or N.J yeshivos and not go to E”Y but only after the chasana if they want to.Torah in america is also Gevaldig and they can shteig.Sometimesa bochur will learn even better in he is married at 21 and shteigs away coming hometoa wonderful eishes chail to serve hima warm meal and not having to run around Yerushalaim during the week and shabbos looking for a meal.Again this is my opinion so i hope i am not offending anyone
1) The yeshivos in E.Y. are not the same as the yeshivos in chutz la’aretz.
2) When a boy gets married, the parnassah clock starts ticking.
3) Whether someone learns better as a bochur or as a yungerman depends on the boy, there’s no all – encompassing rule. My observation is that most metzuyanim are better off single (less responsibility – reichayim al tzaavaro v’yaasok b’Torah?).
My point is The Rosh Hayeshivos of all yeshivos have to get together and come out with a takana:- 1st Takono they have to enact is to encourage the boys to go out with girls of their age & older; Next Takono is about downsizing the extravegance & enormity of Chasunos & all Simchas in general.
Of-course being that some of these Takonos have been attempted at Agudah conventions, which themselves are the highest level of luxury & expense, such a Takono to downsize a Simcha is futile, because 1st:- Practice what you Preach.
But seeing how miserable such attempts have evolved in the past of making unified Takonos, they certainly are not about to make a unified Takono of not sending boys to Eretz Yisroel, especially in light of fact that:- 1) Aviro deYisroel Machkimo 2) Lakewood is not for everyone, especially most Americans who whilst steiging on their Gemoro cannot concurrently be steiging on breaking their heads understanding a Shiur in Yiddish.
stay in the freezer:- Please don’t ever utilize this expression; It is a horendous way to describe a human being, since unfortuinately, dead human bodies are placed into a freezer in many cases, so it is highly insensitive & derogetary of this Brooklyn Shadchan to talk such language, and has opened some very raw wounds.
147 you also put cheesecake in the freezer choose to look for the positive and not the macabre in life.
Broklyn shadchan: Very valid point, from what i understand the new ruke in lakewood that boys over 22.5 will not be acepted is not only meant to bridge the 6 months gap, but also to possibly minimize and possibly illiminate boys going to e”y. But there are a few points that are not acurate. 1.A large portion of the boys officialy go to brisk which is somewhat a new derech halimud which one can’t receive in the us. 2.Alot of boys are not mature enough yet. 3. There was a meeting of roshey yeshivos a while back trying to acheive this but the boys are not holding by listening to this. 4. This might blow some peoples minds, but from my expierience with loads of boys in e”y a large percentage are going down there and the world sits by quietly, im saying this from first hand expierience.
147, I’m sure Brooklyn Shadchan didn’t mean to open your raw wounds, simply she used a term that is used in Lakewood to describe the bochurim in the period right after they start learning in Yeshiva to give them a chance to get settled in their learning before they start with the distractions of shidduchim.
As far as learning in EY only after chassanah, I would say that it sounds like a good idea, but I’m not sure how practical it is because most boys would set themselves up in a paying kollel or to get paid in the yeshiva where they were learning before they got married so their finances on that end are set up as well as having chavrusos and things. Also, who is going to find them an apartment and furniture?
People don’t always get married close to the beginning of a new zman, so how would they be able to come after the chassanah if it’s say, Channukah time for their chassanah. Now they have to wait for Pesach, and I’m sure it is understandable that once they get settled in some kind of routine wherever they were before the chassanah, it will be very difficult to uproot themselves to travel halfway around the world, especially for the kallah, now to part from her family a second time. It is much easier to have a shorter break, maybe 1 month just to get organized, knowing all the while that you’re going. Some people go straight after sheva brochos.
Maybe Brooklyn Shadchan can explain what she has against going to EY as a bochur other than it “taking away” from American yeshivos, which I’m not exactly sure that it does because there is obviously a place for every bochur out there.
Holy brother
There’s a new rule in BMG that over 22.5 won’t get in to the Yeshiva? I haven’t heard of it and like most takanas in the last 2 decades it won’t be enforced.
The simple solution is that the parents should no longer be involved with any aspect of setting up a shidduch. The shadchanimshould deal directly with the bochur and maidel and they in turn should not be allowed to discuss with their parents any questions they have related to the finances of the shidduch. They can ask/discuss questions about midos and such. Leave the financial consideration off the table from the parents and you will have plenty more bochrim saying yes a lot quicker.
I am with you all the way, BK Shadchan. The fire that needs to be lit under the seat of our boys is not the 22.5 ceiling that BMG wants to enact.
Our boys need to start hearing, “by 23-24, you need to be able to support your family, so your wife can take care your kids.”
I have said this before, but will repeat it as often as people wil listen. We do not have an ” age gap” we have a confidence / quality gap. Fix the gap, and the age becomes less of a factor.
Take it from someone who married young, married someone within 2 years of his age, and has decades of successful anniversaries to show for it. Know why? Becuase we WORKED towards our success, as opposed to being handed a monthly stipend.
brooklyn shadchan- Is your rant against boys starting to date later or against them learning in yeshiva in E”Y?
“Their is no reason why a boy cant shteig after the chasana “- Yes there is. As a bochur I started learning at 7AM until about 1AM- and I wasnt alone. Other than davening, 3 quick meals and a half hour lunch nap I was in the Beis Medrash. After marriage you cant do anything close to that, whether the reason being Shona Rishona, Shalom Bayis, and having children to take care of. Also, as DY posted above, after marriage “the parnassah clock starts ticking”.
Take it from someone who married young, married someone within 2 years of his age, and has decades of successful anniversaries to show for it. Know why? Becuase we WORKED towards our success, as opposed to being handed a monthly stipend.
Amen, brother!
I dont get it. If your in kollel you cant have a happy marriage? brilliant, bloody brilliant.
brooklyn shadchan,
1) How old are you?
2) How many shidduchim did you make?
Holy Brother. Can you please try to use spell check and throw in some punctuation and grammar. I doubt that I am alone in saying that it is very hard to understand what you are trying to say (especially the last sentence)
Thank You
brooklyn shadchan- My point was that as a bochur I started learning at 7 ( before davening). After I got married- Shona Rishona I didnt learn night seder, and after that night seder was only until about 1030, not 1 AM.
You cannot learn as much after marriage than as before.
shadchan,
“Biz a hundred un tzvonsig!”
(But please try to write properly so that your words will taken be more seriously)
DAAS YOCHID When a bochur goes to Brisk or R’Shalom he is going to get away from the normal schedual of being watched and told you have to daven in yeshiva and not in a shteibel,also to get away from pressure of family,and ofcourse to shteig .That learning part can be done also not in E”Y
That’s pretty cynical. It might be true in some cases, but certainly not in all.
As of now, it’s unfair to say that the same learning can be done here, there aren’t the same magidei shiur (I’m not saying better or worse, just different). Possibly, if such a movement took place, there would be more yeshivos opening here which learn Kodshim according to the Brisker Rov’s mehalech, but we’re not there now.
This is not a decision which should be made just to accomodate shidduchim, the entire picture – learning, maturity, hefkerus and, yes, shidduchim, has to be considered. This is a decision for Torah leaders, not shadchanim or bloggers. I have heard that there are one or two big R”Y who would like to implement such a plan, so let’s see what happens.
Ben shmone esrei lachupa (Avos 5-21). Can we please stop making cheshbonos?
I have heard that there are one or two big R”Y who would like to implement such a plan
Kodshim or marrying earlier?
GAW,
Skipping E.Y. Marrying earlier would be the likely, and probably intended, result. Kodshim is my guess.
“BPT: Parents today are not teaching responsibility to their boys .They go to E:Y with a credit card and the father can tell all his friends that my son is in Brisk or other yeshivos.
“
To this, BK Shadchan, you are part right, part wrong.
True, I and my boys are very much a part of the “system”. The boys in EY, jockying for a spot in Brisk, cooling their heels for 12-18 months in another chaburah / yeshiva in the hopes that a spot will open up in AJ, the CC, the dira, the whole bit.
However, I (and several of my friends) are trying very hard to change the status quo. It does not happen overnight, and we are but a few voices screaming against a hurricane of louder, more visible voices.
But we are trying
GAW,
Skipping E.Y. Marrying earlier would be the likely, and probably intended, result. Kodshim is my guess.
Lets see.
Lets see.
Yup.
Yeshiva Gedola of Teaneck has this mahalech of getting married even at 19-20
Why dont we create some kind of website where everyone submits their resume? Then everyone can redt each other shidduchim. I dont think you need to be a certified shadchan to make a shidduch – you just need resumes… That’s just my opinion.
How about NO resumes (not a job interview, folks), and people just redt each other shidduchim because they think of someone nice who might be good for someone else. How about no checking up ad nauseum, to find out what the potential boy or girl’s father’s best friend’s second cousin does for a living? How about no more nonsense about what type of shoes, tablecloth, dishes, and dress size the mother has? How about people just thinking of the single people they know who might be a good “fit,” and let the couple decide? It worked really great in the past. It wasn’t “broke” and shouldn;t have been “fixed.” That, in my honest (and not perceived as humble) opinion, is why we have a shidduch crisis today (or at least is in the Top Three reasons).
Networking works! That’s how my parents met. You know someone who knows someone who knows someone….. Especially through smallish shidduch meetings. My mom organizes them and through them many shidduchim (including two or three cousins’) have been made.
Efsher its possible that going to eretz yisrael gives bochurim an aliah that can be very useful to them in shidduchim
Oomis, that’s the MO way, and look at the results. The path to a kosher solution is to do more research, more caution, more involvement of rabonim, shadchanim, mesadrei kiddushin, etc. No shidduch should be redt until the boy’s learning and conduct are known for sure, until the girl’s family is checked out beyond doubt (including how they go about kvod Shabbos), and until the prospective FIL proves to a beis din that he can provide support (in EY, a dira). If this sounds “fanatic,” we already behave this way when we shop for a washing machine…
If this sounds “fanatic,” we already behave this way when we shop for a washing machine…
…analogy fail.
oomis, you said exactly what I would have said. I love it.
Whatever happened to “Torah Im Derech Eretz” attitude?
I believe what BPT is correct. Working and striving for a goal TOGETHER is a basis for a good marriage, not waiting for a monthly stipend from the parents. Is it fair to ask parents to work well into their 70’s to provide for their grandchildren and great grandchildren? Work is not a “dirty” four letter word!
I have made a few shidduchim myself, but not for money. I do this mamesh leshem mitzvah! I look at the two parties involved and see that it might work and try to make people happy.
People ask the most narishe questions when doing a shidduch. What size dress, shoes, stacking dishes, plastic or china, shirt color, sock color, what kind of pants or trousers do they wear etc. My machatainista was asked by a shadchan: EDITED. She answered very sweetly, “if that is the kind of questions you are asking, you are not for me” and thanked her and hung up. I would do the same! B’H a million times that we are out of that parsha.
I see what goes on outside of Mir and other good Yeshivas. The boys are supposed to be in Beis Medrash and they are on their mobiles and smoking and going up and down the street in the take aways. Not all the boys, but alot of them, and the ones outside are the ones who have very wealthy fathers and grandfathers with trust funds for all. So they don’t have to worry for a shidduch, as money, unfortunately talks. Whatever happened to good middos, compassion, kindness, caring and sharing for others, a good person to all for no personal gain, good sense of humor, cool, calm and collect in all situations? Life is not a bed of roses, one has to work on themselves at all times. And, YES I have
true emunah and bitachon always, and I always try to see the good in someone.
Everyone should be matzliach in all they want, and need, LE TOVA!
Out of town yeshivish, there are many such websites. Sawyouatsinai, frumster, the shadchan magazine, etc. Each works a little differently and has pros cons.
The problem is that not everybody is on these sites. If the Gedolim would pick one site and insist that everybody post their reusmes on it, that would be great but that won’t happen because “the Internet is assur”.
Also, these sites should be run by professional shadchanim and not allow every yenta to look through profiles. Otherwise you end up wasting a lot of people’s time. Would you go out with some random girl because some random person online who you have never met and the girl has never met thinks your profiles look compatible? Maybe if that was the only suggestion you got but if everyone is acting as shadchanim then you would probably be inundated with these random suggestions.
With the power of computers and the Internet this type of solution is possible if the gedolim would go for it… Of course, it is all in the hands of Hashem and we have to follow daas Torah.
Perhaps if we redt girls to boys, instead of their mothers, more boys and girls would actually meet and more shidduchim made.
Bpt-+1 I told my daughter that we will be asking shadchanim only to suggest boys who are willing to live without financial support. Will all those grumbling parents step up to the plate? Will anyone help us fix the system? She worried it will leave her stranded. I say the faint of heart need not apply.
I believe they are starting such a database as 42 described, in the way he mentions it— available by invitation only. It’s still in the beta stages, though.
Syag, that support is for Torah, not for the boy. Trying to organize all those “grumbling” parents sounds like hamrada. Look it up, it’s not a good thing to be involved in.
YW-42
not unless you rig it to be age gap freindly.
thought you understood that already.
Loyal Jew: Is that how you think of your wife? Like a washing machine? With a cooking machine feature on the side?
[No, I don’t really think you do. But you were just asking for it with that comment :)]
If washing machines had personalities and goals and dreams and individuality beyond being EnergyStar-rated and expensive or cheap and stacking or being side-by-side with the dryer, then okay, maybe. But you know that there’s only so much you can check out about someone to predict what an actual, non-washing machine girl will be like.
If someone checked me out and called my parents and teachers and friends etc etc, they wouldn’t come out with the foggiest flipping CLUE of what I’m like.
Is that how you think of your wife? Like a washing machine? With a cooking machine feature on the side?
[No, I don’t really think you do. But you were just asking for it with that comment :)]
I wouldn’t put it past our Loyal J.
read Letters to the editor in this weeks Flatbush Jewish Journal and stop blaming Rosh Yeshivos…..it’s mostly Mamma’s fault who have not looked into the mirror since they were 17 and have not taken a photo of their darling son and looked and his changes the past 10 years!!!!
LoyalJew- no interest in organizing anyone. I am just wondering if the people who dont have the money to give will be willing to do something about it. And your comment about the money being for Torah is not even close to the truth
Syag, no one said that it had to be each person’s own money. That’s what a tzibur, hefker beis din, hachnasas kallah and tzedakah are for. We have to get past the idea that “our” money is ours even if Torah’s needs aren’t being met. It goes both ways, an avreich’s learning isn’t “his,” it belongs to Klal Yisroel. What isn’t close to the truth about this?
“.it’s mostly Mamma’s fault who have not looked into the mirror since they were 17”
Ms. Critique. I think a more telling piece is the “ask the shadchan” question that appeared in the May 3rd issue. I copy it here in its entirety (you can also read the issue online, (google “flipdocs” and “flatbush jewish journal” archives).
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Dear Mrs. Rose,
I am the mother of several boys. One is in the Parsha now. I was recently red a shidduch and after looking into it, I could not determine from the information how attractive the girl is. I have not had good experiences depending on pictures. Would it be appropriate for me to go and see how she looks at the place where she works? I feel very uncomfortable about this as many years ago this was done to me and I was not very pleased about it. What are your thoughts?
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For her answer, find the archive and read it yourself. Suffice to say, I think the question in and of itself is a bigger reason for any shidduch crisis than even (sorry AZ) any age gap issues.
APY:
and i’m sorry to say that you are incorrect.
It is simply (by and large) a result of the age gap issues.
You are correct. There is a BIG age gap problem . Mothers in their 40s and 50s, act as if they are teenagers.
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