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How do you propose to make shadchanus into a profession?
Will that exclude some from suggesting shidduchim and carrying it through? If so, who will it exclude?
I heard of “sawyouatsinai” but I don’t know much about it, I never heard of “imetyouatsinai” so I can’t comment on either one.
There are some professions that need barriers to entry and some that don’t. Imagine if there were no barriers to become a commercial airline pilot or surgeon- it’s not the same as delivering for Amazon.
With the amount of damage being caused by Shadchanim and the serious state of disrepair of the entire shidduch scene it’s way past the point that there needs to be some serious barriers to entry. If flooding the market with inexperienced Shadchanim would help then maybe there’s something to discuss. Until then- they need to be brought under control (i.e. creating a barrier to entry and creating a discipline process to fine, suspend or ban the ones who violate basic decency).
I’ve mentioned in the past that when I was working in the ACA, I was able to run a query to see what illnesses policyholders suffered from, what medications they were on and when they last filled their medications. If I found someone that hadn’t refilled his medication in three months and contacted his Rov, neighbors and family members to inquire about their financial situation and persuade them to start taking their medications again I would have been canned on the spot and lost my professional credentials. Yet when a Shadchan pulls a stunt like that they’re celebrated as a hero. Their blatant disregard for privacy and strong-arm tactics need to stop but with no barriers to entry there’s no incentive to act appropriately.
As far as the loading resumes is concerned- like I mentioned earlier, as long as everyone who has their resume submitted is a willing participant I can’t imagine why anyone would have an issue with it. (If Shadchanim have an issue it means that you’re onto something good and I wish you the best of luck.) Advertising and getting lots of people on board may be an issue but like every other idea posted in the numerous threads- nothing seems to be getting widespread traction and acceptance by the population at large.
How would you create a barrier to entry?
Would that exclude family and friends from suggesting shidduchim?Daas,
I think they want to have some sort of certification and, hopefully, meaningful education. They want stop you from offering a shidduch same way as hairdresser union is not going to stop movers from cutting their child’s hair (or will they?).Maybe, instead of certification, we can have disclosures of education, endorsements by rabbis, (verifiable) statistics – 100 shidduchim based on 10,000 dates .. although even that might call people to fudge their numbers … not sure about endorsements also – I asked one rav who, bli ayin hara, already married double digits of children, he shrugged: “shadchanim did not work out for any of mine”.
I think they want to have some sort of certification and, hopefully, meaningful education. They want stop you from offering a shidduch same way as hairdresser union is not going to stop movers from cutting their child’s hair (or will they?).
I assume you mean that lack of certification will not prevent someone from suggesting a shidduch.
So an optional certification. Ok, but I don’t see that as changing anything in a meaningful way.
I’m finding it hard to have a discussion with you but I’m going to respond to some of your concerns (at least for now).
Post #2370330
“And I still say that reducing the number of shadchanim isn’t going to help.”
What I see happening in the long term is that if the incompetent shadchanim are somehow removed and more competent shadchanim are brought in (once the negative stigma of being a shadchan is removed)- then the number of shidduchim being made will go up. Professional shadchanim won’t have to compete with the riff raff and singles can go out on meaningful dates (I.e. not ones that they’re pressured into). They’ll also have more time to follow up on suggestions from friends and family.
Best of all- reducing the number of shadchanim will reduce the amount of collateral damage. (I’m sure you agree with that!)
“ Also I would imagine that plenty of shadchanim who you may think are incompetent have made lots of shidduchim.”
You’re correct- but again you need to take collateral damage into account as well as the lack of precision. And no, the end doesn’t justify the means.
Take the following example:
Let’s say snipers in combat would be issued a shotgun with buckshot. Would you be against arming them with a sniper rifle using the argument that at times they do make the kill (albeit only a small number of times)?
You need to take into account that having a more accurate shot will brings more successes and reduce the amount of collateral damage.
The barrier to entry would work the same way it does for any profession.
To make it into a profession there would have to be:
Some sort of education requirements,
Some experience and guidance (I.e. working under a professional for a year or two),
An examination showing proficiency,
A list of rules that members must follow or face disciplinary actions,
A discipline process for those that do break the rules,
Continuing education requirements to make sure that members stay up to date,
And an oversight board to ensure that everything is being followed and victims have a place to file grievances.(This list is by far not all inclusive.)
There’s nothing that stops friends and family from suggesting shidduchim just like there’s nothing stopping you from getting friends or family to fix your car when it breaks down. You’re taking a risk though as you may void the warranty if a non-certified mechanic works on your car.
If there’s nothing that stops friends and family from redting shidduchim, what will stop anyone who is not “certified” (or whatever term you would use) from redting shidduchim?
And if anyone can redt shidduchim, what is the motivation for shadchanim to get certified only to subject themselves to discipline?
If you had a flat tire what’s to stop you from calling a friend or relative to help you change the tire? Nothing. Could a “mechanic” earn his livelihood by going around all day looking for friends and relatives with flat tires and help them out? Best of luck to him.
Does that mean that we don’t need professional mechanics anymore? Would you suggest that mechanics don’t get certified since then they need to be honest and knowledgeable?
That obvious answer is that for simple things you don’t need someone who’s experienced and qualified but when something gets complicated you do need them. And when someone has a serious issue with their car they’d like to see that the mechanic is ASE certified and has insurance.
Similarly by shidduchim. If a friend or relative redts a shidduch and everything works out then good for them. Even if they’re meant for each other there may be issues that come up that an experienced professional would be better at handling.
Furthermore, once a “shadchan” runs out of friends and family, they need to get more clients from somewhere.
If there was a system in place that would certify (or provide credentials or whatever) to shadchanim- when some quack calls a yeshiva and asks for their shidduch list (how they have a right to give that out without permission is a different matter) the yeshiva could first make sure that they’re certified/ credentialed before giving it out.
If there’s someone from out of town that doesn’t have friends or family that are able to help her find a shidduch and they travel to NY or Lakewood to meet shadchanim, are they going to go to the certified ones or to an uncertified one who justifies her uncertification by not wanting to be disciplined for lying or giving out private information?
At times one shadchan may feel the need to discuss a particular shidduch with a different shadchan (obviously with the express written permission from both sides). Would you feel comfortable allowing a shadchan that earned your trust to discuss your deepest personal information with someone who didn’t go through the training because they’re afraid of being part of the discipline process? I hope not!
So you’re suggesting that the market would support such a thing.
Other than your posts on the CR, I haven’t seen or heard of any demand for certification of shadchanim, so I don’t agree that there’s much of a market for it.The shidduch crisis in our community stems from a mismatch between expectations and reality. In a system where men are encouraged to learn Torah full-time, supported by women who work or receive family help, dating operates like a marketplace. Men who are committed to Torah, emotionally mature, and share values are highly sought after, as are women who are kind, family-oriented, and supportive. However, not everyone fits these ideals, creating imbalances. For example, a woman in her late 20s might struggle because men her age often prefer younger women, while a man learning Torah full-time but lacking financial backing might be overlooked.
A key factor is how men and women’s perceived value changes over time. Men gain value as they age due to increased Torah knowledge and life experience, while women’s traditional value—linked to youth, beauty, and childbearing—tends to decline. This dynamic means older women may need to adjust expectations, while men often don’t face the same pressure. Younger women are seen as more attractive, but older women can still find matches by focusing on shared values and emotional compatibility.
The current approach encourages men to start dating earlier and women to start later to balance the age gap. While this helps with demographics, it doesn’t address unrealistic expectations. For instance, women waiting for a man who is both a full-time learner and financially supported might miss out on a kind, compatible match. Similarly, men seeking a “perfect” wife might overlook someone caring and aligned with their goals. This approach also ignores the diversity within our community, where some rabbis support organizations like WZO while others don’t, highlighting the need for tailored solutions.
Materialism further complicates the issue. Extravagant weddings, luxury lifestyles, and societal pressures have shifted priorities, making dating more about appearances than values. This culture leaves many struggling to meet unrealistic standards, pushing singles to chase superficial traits rather than meaningful connections.
To address this, we need a community-wide effort. Rabbis and leaders should teach this mindset in schools and organize events to promote realistic expectations. By focusing on shared values, mutual respect, and emotional compatibility, we can create a healthier dating culture. Additionally, as singles age, they often become more selective, narrowing their options. Both men and women must recognize that being overly selective based on past experiences can hinder finding a meaningful relationship. Instead, they should prioritize core values and give potential matches a fair chance.
Logical older single in Shidduchim.
Talkingtachlisnow26, let’s say I agreed with everything you wrote.
How would that solve the demographic issue?
I am trying to understand shidduch strategy of guys who are not going into rabbanut, and will eventually need to look for a job – when they are looking for a girl or a shver who will support their learning for several more years. So, they are severely limiting their choices to a small number of rich girls, compromising on other issues, from middos to beauty, so that they can spend several more years not being responsible for the family, then go into subpar jobs due to their lack of skills and then having to support the wife used to rich life for the rest of his years. An alternative is so simple in our days: learn just 8 hours a day, work 6 to 8 hours a day, marry a wife of modest means and middos tovos who will raise great children and continue learning for decades to come.
From this, I am concluding, and unfortunately also observing, that guys who embark on this shortsighted path have to be seen with suspicion: either they have a feeling that they’ll fall apart outside of yeshiva, or they are a little lazy and use learning as an excuse, or they overestimate their own potential, or they and their parents have wrong ideas what Torah asks from jews …
I try to respond to every post directed towards me but recently I’ve become suspicious about you. After rereading many of your recent posts (on this thread and others) I’ve been noticing a concerning trend. I sincerely hope that I’m wrong but I’m going to err on the side of caution and stop responding to you.
Out of courtesy though, I will respond to your most recent post.
Am I suggesting that the market would support such a thing?
No, I’m not suggesting that the market would support it and I don’t believe I ever wrote that. What I wrote, and still feel strongly about, is that the market NEEDS it. If not for anything else but to protect the victims of Shadchan abuse.
I’m privileged to be a member of כלל ישראל, a nation that takes pride in the strict rules about talking about others. Yet for some reason that all goes out the window when someone turns a magical age and a cruel shadchan gets ahold of their name. In the name of “shidduchim” they’re all of the sudden allowed to call anyone and everyone and ask the most detailed and private questions about their personal lives (even when the target specifically tells them to remove their name and they have zero permission to discuss them). There needs to be some sort of protection for these victims.
“Other than your posts on the CR, I haven’t seen or heard of any demand for certification of shadchanim, so I don’t agree that there’s much of a market for it.”
The entire shidduch system is in shambles, even for the ones that it happens to work for. It’s a combination of many failures and addressing (or even fixing) just one of them won’t resolve the issue but may be a start. If for some reason you think that Shadchanim shouldn’t be brought under control- try explaining that instead of just writing that you haven’t seen or heard of it anywhere else so there’s no market for it.
Are you insinuating that we continue pushing agendas that have been pushed for over a decade (with practically zero positive results) since you’ve seen and heard lots of demand for it?
Dr Pepper > In the name of “shidduchim” they’re all of the sudden allowed to call anyone
in fairness:
1) our community is dispersed and looking further around allows (in theory) for better matches, so if you have no personal connection, you have to rely on information from others.
2) sharing such info is, of course, allowed & encouraged, within some limits. There is probably more undersharing (“yes, he/she is a wonderful person”) and mis-communications: how does a rav on the phone knows what is a “good learner” for you?
3) people should be as sharing when selecting schools, business partners, and charities.I wrote what you quoted above in reference to a Shadchanim who get names and add them to their list without the victims permission. If someone approaches a Shadchan, asks them to put them on their list and agrees (in writing) to allow the Shadchan to do research then I fully agree that the Shadchan can do any research that they want.
Similarly, if a Shadchan redts a shidduch (with the express written permission of all involved) then there’s no limit on the amount of research the other party is allowed to do.
(Obviously whatever information is obtained can not be divulged to other Shadchanim.)
I feel strongly that if a Shadchan wants to add someone’s name to their list then they needs to get their permission. They should also get in writing if the Shadchan is allowed to give out their names to a potential match without first running it by them.
Do you agree with this?
Dr. Pepper, don’t be so suspicious.
I thought you were making a suggestion that would help the shidduch crisis. I guess not.
So, they are severely limiting their choices to a small number of rich girls
Completely untrue, as are your extrapolated conclusions.
The boys who want to learn seriously for a number of years are the most in demand, and although there are of course exceptions, most want to do it for the right reasons, not to shirk responsibility.
Dr Pepper, I think this sounds suspicious. Theoretically, you are allowed to benefit the person without his knowledge, but in this case you are also bothering all the references.
Daas, I am not saying that everyone is doing it for the wrong reasons. A rough estimate, one should have iq at least 120 to be learning, which is 10% of population, this is not accounting for middos.
And I am not denying that many have good intentions and following the advice they are given. Still, at some point, people need to be responsible themselves. … A friend told me that he was trying to encourage his married son to get a better job to support his own family, and the son blamed his parents back for sending him to yeshiva that encouraged him to stay in learning too long.
I’m not sure if you want to go down that road. If they’re spending so much time calling references why don’t they just call up the person in question and ask for permission to act as an agent on their behalf? (I think we both know the answer to that.)
Are Shadchanim really allowed to go ahead and do what they think is beneficial to someone (without permission) when practically speaking there’s a much higher chances of causing them harm?
Also, if you act one someone’s behalf without their permission and cause them a loss- are you responsible for making them whole again?
Dr Pepper > if you act one someone’s behalf without their permission and cause them a loss- are you responsible for making them whole again?
I believe so, and that is all halachos about doing some a favor without their knowledge is about. If there is a possibility of loss, you are not allowed it. If you are not allowed to, you will be responsible for direct loss.
Even with permission, if you are not a professional, you are responsible for losses. So, maybe here the idea of shadchan certification comes in. I wonder how many shadchanim actually know what they are doing and thus have immunity? This is probably relevant to the current state of art – after all, old times doctors had permission to drain your blood …
Even the most naive person knows that the probability of a Shadchan causing someone a loss is greater than zero. Accordingly a Shadchan should never be allowed to give out a person’s name without their permission.
I actually disagree with you on the part about a non-professional being responsible for damage caused when they had permission to work on something. (Assuming that the person getting damaged was aware that the damager wasn’t a professional- it’s a risk that they took and lost out.)
There are no Shadchanim that have immunity and they shouldn’t need it either. If they’re malicious then they’d forfeit any immunity typically provided to professionals. If they’re sincere and forthcoming then the singles accept all risks upon themselves when taking their advice or suggestions.
Dr Pepper > I actually disagree with you on the part about a non-professional being responsible for damage caused when they had permission to work on something.
I probably missed out some important caveats. You can look at, for example
YD 336:6 – liability of doctors – experts v not
liability for advice – expert/not, paid/not – Nesivos Mishpat (306:14) CM 306:6-7
indirect loss CM 386:3maybe that is why Sephardim do not charge for shidduchim but consider it a mitzva – less chances to be liable 😉
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