Shidduch Crisis Idea

The shadchanim are pushing the girls to get married younger

They also want to get paid if there’s more than a certain amount of dates as opposed to if there’s an engagement

I meant seminaries/yeshivos

coffee
I have not encountered the paid bf engagement yet
But I would think that is counterproductive, encouraging people to break off when they are unsure rather than pay the fee

as for the OP
enforcement will be the issue
We survived without wedding halls during covid and I would imagine people will find work arounds now
Your statement “we banned the internet” only proves the point, people have ways to circumvent the rules

The era of the “Coercive Kehilla” ended centuries ago never to be resurrected (except somewhat by Chasidim) again.
As one Rabbi wrote, “The people who think Rabbanim can just wave a magic wand & have the Kehilla do their bidding are sadly mistaken.”

There’s no way to enforce this idea. The wedding halls won’t go along, because (among other reasons, one reason being the) unless *every* hall agreed then no hall will agree. And every hall will not agree. Chasidim, by design, get married at ages 17, 18, 19 etc. And the Chasidish halls will never agree. And they’ll be other halls, not Chasidish, that will choose to profit rather than agree, by getting more business by not having this rule.

And, if not, people will open new halls that don’t have the rule. And families with a young engaged daughter will find somewhere else to have the Chasuna. Even at a non-traditional hall.

Besides, Chazal suggest getting married by age 18, at the latest.

I vote with Chazal.

Instead of the idea in the OP, try to encourage the young men to get married earlier, instead of them waiting until 22 or 23.

The boys who just started shidduchim should not go.out with 19 years, aka,girls just back from seminary.

Dr Pepper > How about making Shadchanus into a profession?

Shadchanus is a type of a broker. I don’t think society has great standards for any kind of brokers – RE, finance, etc. In each of these professions, barriers to entry are low, and most of brokers are low on expertise and high on misinformation… I think what works – opening markets, being able to evaluate professionals, and to open up information.

For example, travel agents used to be hoshuve people who could magically find that needed connection. Most people now are fine using automatic brokers. Turns out any normal person could do same magic. Maybe all former travel agents went into shadchanus.

There are online shidduch databases but it seems that most people do not use them. Otherwise, shadchanim horde information and use it to maximize their profit. I listened recently about one forward-looking shadchan – he was bragging how they introduced computer sticky notes and how he is teaching shadchanim that 20th century technology. So, somehow information from eligible singles should flow into a central database that other singles or their shluchim should be able to search.

@always_ask_questions

You’re correct that a shadchan is a type of broker. Some brokers are part of a profession and some aren’t. Making shadchanus into a profession is way past due. There needs to be a code of ethics that they need to follow or just some basic decency.

You call a travel agent and if they find something for you- great! If not, hang up the phone and call a different one. They wouldn’t dare call your Rov, Rebbe, neighbor or dog walker (or all of the above plus people you previously dated) to say that they found you a great flight but you don’t want it and they don’t agree with your reasoning so please pressure them into reconsidering before they need to resort to something more extreme.

Shadchanim don’t work that way. Shadchanim have way too much power and information (that they use and abuse) to not have a discipline process in place. They will make your life miserable until they get their way. There needs to be some training, oversight, responsibility and a discipline process that can fine, suspend or permanently ban them.

I can’t understand the OPs numbers. There are 3000 older single girls and ZERO older single boys!? Shocking.

And the solution – force a good couple not to get married because we need to get rid of other singles? Nuts.

Dr. Pepper said:

“Making shadchanus into a profession is way past due.
There needs to be a code of ethics that they need to follow or just some basic decency.”

____________________________________________________________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Around than 20 years ago, Rabbi Moshe Bellows Esq
wrote this “Shadchan Code of Responsibility”:

[1] Shadchan recognizes the many challenges facing those who are seeking
shidduchim and agrees to try to be mindful of the inherent vulnerability of those involved in shidduch dating.
The Shadchan therefore agrees to treat each request with the sensitivity
and kavod (respect) that is due every person – regardless of their idiosyncrasies
or seemingly undesirable characteristics, which may make the Shadchan’s job harder in some cases.

[2] All information garnered by the Shadchan shall be fact checked with the client for correctness and accuracy.
Client shall be defined as one of the two individuals being set up.

Shadchan may approach a parent, rabbi, or other third party to confirm personal information, if necessary.
The Shadchan shall be well versed in Halachos (laws) governing Lashon Harah (slander)
to be able to ascertain what information may or may not be shared and with whom.

[3] Shadchan shall advocate honest exchange of information and in no way
should encourage lying or stretching of the truth, including acts of omission.

[4] Shadchan shall empower the parties. Shadchan shall encourage
the parties to contact each other if they wish to have a second date.
Conversely, the Shadchan shall encourage the parties to engage
in healthy dialogue if they do not want to go out again.

The Shadchan should not act as a crutch for difficult, yet healthy social interaction.
Shadchan recognizes that his/her clients are adults,
and will both treat them like adults and encourage them to act like responsible adults.

[5] Shadchan shall make fee amount and expectation (if any) clear upon first interaction with potential client.
This fee expectation and structure shall be in writing and signed by both Shadchan and client.

[6] Following the date, Shadchan agrees only to speak directly to the client
(individual man and woman) about any other miscellaneous issues pertaining to the date.
The Shadchan must obtain permission from the parties to disclose
any other information to third parties, including parents, Rabbis or friends.

[7] Following the date, Shadchan agrees to adhere to strict privacy guidelines.
At no time shall the Shadchan discuss clients, parents of clients, or other issues with outside parties,
without oral and preferably written consent from the individuals.

[8] Shadchan may give advice or insight but needs to be keenly aware of
when such information is outside the scope of his/her expertise.
Shadchan shall not act as a counselor or psychiatrist, unless he/she has
the requisite professional skill and training in the area of question.
Shadchan shall retain a list of healthcare professionals who he/she can refer clients to if necessary.

If Shadchan feels that client is in need of professional help, he/she shall make referral.
Further, if a serious disorder is suspected, Shadchan shall consult a healthcare professional
and/or Rabbi to receive guidance and disclosure obligation.
Shadchan shall not make an independent determination of disclosure.

[9] For educational purposes, Shadchan may use anecdotes or examples from their experience.
Such examples and anecdotes must not identify the person or situation
or include information that may readily lead to such identification.

[10] Shadchan shall not overly stress physical or financial attributes.
Instead, he/she shall stress qualities of character, piety, intelligence and competence
that would lend permanence to a marriage and encourage a high degree of moral stability in the community.

[11] Shadchan recognizes that there are multiple appropriate ways for singles to meet one another,
and will encourage clients to explore other avenues outside of Shadchan’s auspices
if the opportunity presents itself. Shadchan recognizes that his/her clients do not belong to them.

[12] Shadchan recognizes that every person is a unique individual, so much more than
a composite of facts and figures on an index card.

Due to the deeply personal nature of shidduchim,
Shadchan will make a serious effort to get to know each of his/her clients
as an individual by spending time with them, preferably in person – even if
this reduces the quantity of clients the Shadchan may have time to assist.

Shadchan will make every effort to avoid generic adjectives in describing clients
to prospective dates, and instead focus on meaningful information
that lends insight into the true essence of the individual.

[13] The Client (and/or the Client’s parents when deemed appropriate) must be
honest and forthright with the Shadchan when approached with questions;
must call the Shadchan at reasonable hours, to be specified by the Shadchan;
must inform the Shadchan about an engagement or serious relationship,
even if it is not the result of the Shadchan’s work; and must
pay the Shadchan the agreed upon fee (if any) in a timely manner.

[14] All other expectations of both the Shadchan and the client
shall be discussed and clarified at the outset of the relationship.

FULL DISCLOSURE:

I did not write any part of this “Shadchan Code of Responsibility”.
I merely copied it, exactly, from www (dot) endthemadness (dot) org,
which is a web site created by Rabbi Chananya Weissman.

Dr Pepper,
I am just pointing out that in the history of the world, nobody solved the problem of having quality brokers.
Policing and code of ethics is a good idea, but, again historically, will lead to just creating barrier to new entrants.

How about a review board where customers can leave reviews of shadchanim behavior – this works on amazon.
Another idea would be for everyone, including those who are looking for themselves or their family to also keep in mind others.

But as I mentioned regarding travel agents – the problem was solved by technology, where now everyone can buy their own ticket.
Similarly, a lot of financial middlemen were eliminated by muutal funds, index funds, robinhoods, etc.
Some sort of automatic information sharing should work in our community.

Lmaanachai: How are you going to draw a line between who is “Chasidish” and who is “Litvish”? Many many people don’t neatly fit into only one category. For example, those who are sometimes called “Heimish” could be more Chasidish leaning or more Litvish leaning, but not really either. There’s the Oberlanders, who most are more Chasidish leaning, but not Chasidish and not Litvish. They might even daven Nusach Ashkenaz while wearing an up-hat (or even a shtreimal). The Yekkes are neither Litvish nor Chasidish. Same with the Sefardic. And Teimanim. And Mizrachim. And what about the Yeshivish? A large portion, perhaps even a majority, shtam from Hungarian or Polish or other non-Litvish backgrounds.

When you have young girls getting engaged, if your proposal became reality, they’ll simply self-identify as non-Litvish.

My contention is that there’s no real way to implement this idea. If it were tried to be implemented, almost anyone who wanted to get around it would have so many loopholes to blast through.

And there will be wedding halls that will cater to young Kallahs, without them penalizing them, monetarily or otherwise.

H

@always_ask_questions

What’s wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants? If it removes all the shadchanim who shouldn’t be there to begin with and prevents new ones who don’t belong there from coming in- that’ll be a win for everyone. The few who belong there won’t be ashamed to refer to themselves as “shadchanim” (and won’t have to deal with the riff raff), those who are forced out can pasture elsewhere and do something productive with their lives, new entrants who didn’t want to be part of the riff raff could get certified and help those who can use their help and finally- the singles who need them the most would know where to turn.

I love your idea of a place where victims of shadchanim could leave their negative comments. After hearing countless times “stop being a chenyukkel, you need to tell me why you said ‘no’, there’s no Issur of Lashon Hora by shadchanim”- it would be nice to give them a taste of their own medicine.

I can’t see the shidduch process being automated. Finding one’s bashert is much more complicated than purchasing a plane ticket, especially since a good part of the time the person themself doesn’t fully understand or know what they’re looking for. That’s why we could use “professional” shadchanim, those who were able to join the profession by getting by the barrier and are able to live up to a strict code of ethics.

SB613: Your point does have some logic but it isn’t persuasive since halacha itself says, both, to get married younger as well as to wait for an older sibling. Waiting for an older sibling isn’t a newfangled svara; it is brought down in the seforim hakedoshim. Halacha doesn’t say to get married older for societal reasons. (In fact, as we acknowledged, halacha says to get married younger.)

(As an aside, it is also interesting to observe that it is usually the same people who will push for getting married older that will also push for not waiting for an older sibling.)

Dr Pepper > I can’t see the shidduch process being automated. Finding one’s bashert is much more complicated than purchasing a plane ticket

This goes without saying. Sotah mentions an example of a matrona trying this by lining up men v women (by age? by height?). So, we need to think what can be automated. I presume most singles or their parents can handle the task of filtering out resumes by parameters instead of waiting for a shadchan to “decide” who might be a good match – based on her (often limited and biased) understanding.

Let’s take one most innocent step: load all existing resumes into a computer but not shown to anyone. All you could do is do a search by parameters and see how many matches are there. So, a girl searches for someone who is under 30, finished shas, has a master’s degree and loves skiing and gefilte fish. She sees that this generates 0 (zero) matches. So, she sobers up and can start relaxing her conditions to see what gives.

Would this be useful?

practically speaking, imetyouatsinai has interface with shadachanim, but I don’t the system is popular enough for some reason. What are the reasons?

Some of the older girls want a millionaire business man,a body builder and a full time learner. Good luck.

@Menachem, this is one of Lennys posts He can hardly manage with one wife.
i’m just not religious. I wasn’t bar mitzvhd until i was 40 and in the Army. I believe the Arbitration Agreement was mutually cancelled b/c it was legally deficient, i.e., blank scope & none of the Beis Din members were lawyers. I don’t want to give a Get b/c i want to try marriage counselding & stay married. I assume BD of America would be more like our sheila Rabbi & side w/ me; but I don’t know that for a fact. My wife became religous about 23 years ago. I’m fine with it. She buys expensive sheitels, we send our kids to yeshiva, israel, etc… etc… Kids are all religious; including 2 who are black hat. End goal is to get into marriage counseling with the Rabbi/counselor who thinks i’m a good guy & marriage workable. I’m really trying to find someone who represents people and knows how beis din work. Thanks

Lmaanachai: The problem here isn’t the diagnosis; the problem is the proposed solution. Urging girls to wait and get married older is a non-starter. It goes against Halacha and Yiddishkeit.

And it goes against the interest of each yochid, each young Bas Yisroel. If an individual girl delays trying to get married, she significantly increases the likelihood of making herself into the victim who eventually won’t be able to find anyone to marry.

The only real solution is to encourage the boys to marry younger. They should start considering shidduchim, at the latest, at ages 17, 18, or 19. Hopefully they can be married by time they’re 18 to 21.

The other potential solution, and you’re going to either laugh (like Menachem already did above) or scream (like Gadolhadofi is going to as soon as he reads this), is “plural marriage” (a/k/a polygamy). Non-Ashkenazim (Sefardim, Teimanim, Mizrachim, and any other non-Ashkenazim) can do so immediately. Ashkenazim, of course, have the Cherem. But Rabbeinu Gershom put an expiration date on it — which has passed already. Now, the later Rabbonim decided to extend it past its original expiration date. But just like the Rabbonim extended it then, the Rabbonim can end it now, if they today decide that Klal Yisroel needs plural marriage for our benefit.

And as the shidduch crisis of there being much more girls than boys in the shidduch parsha makes clear, if a small minority of the fewer boys took two wives instead of just one, it would quickly resolve this shidduch problem for the girls.

”B’H they [the gedolim] are in charge and not some ignorant troll who enjoys pretending to have multiple wives..”

Troll, yes. Ignorant, no.

@always_ask_questions

I don’t think your idea will have a meaningful impact but as long as all resumes are loaded in the computer by the individual themself (or with explicit written permission from the individual) then I can’t see why anyone would have an issue.

You’d also have to get some geniuses to figure out how the system will be exploited and mitigate those gaps.

While you’re at it- you may want to add a feature that lets you know if the type of person that you’re looking for is also looking for you. (Just a thought.)

I never heard of imetyouatsinai so I can’t comment. Sorry

Would you be able to comment on what’s wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants?

“There’s a difference between a friend or family member who dabbles in shidduchim verses a shadchan whose only training and experience is that they “dabble” in shidduchim”

“Stam” meaning not family and friends.

If you meant something else, please explain.

@daas-yochid

If I meant something else? I’m not the one who used that word. You need to answer what you meant or rephrase the question using words that I wrote.