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we just found an explanation that makes much more sense
An explanation for what?
And I’m being serious, because I have a feeling we’re talking about two different things.
Those 10 extra are STILL left without a chair, at this point we would have t conclude that it cant just be the age gap keeping them without seats, they must not hear as well, or run as fast or something Just the disparity cannot explain how these 10 are still let standing round after round
It actually could in shidduchim, although in chairs you’d be right to assume there was a specific difficulty getting a seat.
In musical chairs, it doesn’t matter who sits in which chair.
If that were the case in shidduchim, the analogy would work. However, in shidduchim, the new entries, say the 23 year old boys, are unlikely to marry, say, a 34 year old girl. So even if in theory every girl had exactly the same qualities, the very fact that they have been playing musical chairs for a while (in other words, their age), is a prejudice against them. This wouldn’t be the case in actual musical chairs.
Dy
1) “is only possible if the old timers marry the newcomers.”
Agreed. And some do. True if ALL 23 year olds only married 19 year olds there would be a problem.2) ‘someone will get to the chairs before others.”
Yes some will be left standing after the first round, but if those “losers” are still standing after the second, third , fourth , fifth etc rounds. Although SOMEONE would have to be standing. It is unlikely that the same person is standing round after round after round due to just the lack of chairs“the 23 year old boys, are unlikely to marry, say, a 34 year old girl”
True but what happened with the 40 year old boys (when they were 26 and she was 20), the 39 year olds? The 38 year olds? 37? 36? What about the 35 year olds? 34?
Are ALL her classmates married to 38 year olds leaving her no one? That just doesnt describe realityTrue but what happened with the 40 year old boys (when they were 26 and she was 20), the 39 year olds? The 38 year olds? 37? 36? What about the 35 year olds? 34?
They’re married.
Are ALL her classmates married to 38 year olds leaving her no one?
I don’t know, maybe all of her classmates are married, but there are are a bunch of girls from her grade (perhaps from different schools) who aren’t.
That just doesnt describe reality
If the numbers don’t match up, you can’t just pretend they do. Someone recently coined a term for that. It’s called “Shidduch Crisis Denial Syndrome™”.
“They’re married.”
Exactly, why did they all manage when this poor 34 year old is left behind round after round after round.
while there may not be enough 38 year olds to marry all 34 year olds. There are (that is there were ) more than enough 40 year olds + 39 + 38+ 37 + 36 + 35 + 34 +33 + 32 + 32 year oldsUnless you mean that NOW there arent enough left., and I concede that that may be true. But even closing the “age gap” wont help the current “older” singles (as I believe you said) it is about trying to prevent future 34 year olds from being left behind
True if ALL 23 year olds only married 19 year olds there would be a problem.
Maybe this is the point we differ on. You say that if a small amount(e.g. 5%) would marry at the same age, it would solve the disparity issue. I say it will help, but not solve it. (Also there are those who marry at a bigger age discrepancy than 3-4 years which makes it worse).
Unless you mean that NOW there arent enough left., and I concede that that may be true.
Yes
But even closing the “age gap” wont help the current “older” singles
Unfortunately true
it is about trying to prevent future 34 year olds from being left behind
Right. And if we continue with the same exact shidduch process, where more girls enter the pool of available singles than boys every year, it will repeat itself in 15 years.
DY: Should communities shun those who marry a spouse with a notable age gap, due to the societal crisis such action causes? Or if not shun the individuals, at least be publicly very critical of the concept of marriages with a notable (what “notable” is would have to be defined) age gap.
If not, why not?
No, and no, because I hope we’re not a society of obnoxious peoples.
“Someone recently coined a term for that. It’s called “Shidduch Crisis Denial Syndrome™”.”
And another one joins the frey. Thanks for the put down, I mean we can’t be right if we see it differently. There can only be one line of thought. The fact that it’s as clearly non sensical to us as it is sensical to you doesn’t seem to be rattling our cages. The lack of congeniality toward others is probably more of answer to your (global you again) crisis than how many chairs you think are set out.
I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my humor.
DY: Wouldn’t public criticism of the concept (not the people) by rabbonim be helpful in discouraging and reducing the incidences of age gap marriages, thereby greatly alleviating the crisis?
The rabbonim who advocate closing the gap seem to think not.
The rabbonim who advocate closing the age gap came to advocate that only after askonim brought it to their attention. Perhaps those same askonim ought to petition the rabbonim to more forcefully dissuade couples from getting engaged if there’s an age gap?
“If the numbers don’t match up, you can’t just pretend they do.”
Of course not.
But when the numbers do match up or at least can. You can’t just pretend that in reality all 23 year olds only marry 19 year olds and that once all 23 year olds are taken any extra 19 year olds can’t go out with anyone 16 -22 (obviosuly I mean once the 16 year olds are older ) .This fixed system, while it is some cute math and I get its attraction, it just doesn’t describe reality
you want the problem to have a simple solution, so you just put up bilndfolds and imagine a simplistic problem. the fact that it doesnt describe reality is not a deterrent, because yo u went it to be true .
Theres an older name for this belief its called “alternative facts”(BTW I dont deny the Shidduch crises I deny the Age Gap™ as being a main cause .
But when the numbers do match up or at least can.
Yes, they can, if we close the age gap…
BTW I dont deny the Shidduch crises I deny the Age Gap™ as being a main cause .
What do you mean by the shidduch crisis? The disparity between number of available boys vs. girls?
“What do you mean by the shidduch crisis?”
I mean what most people mean. The fact that there are many older singles struggling to find a shiduch
I disagree that that’s what most people mean.
Do you deny that there are a lot more older single girls than boys?
Do you deny that based on how our current shidduch system works (now how it theoretically could work, but how it does actually play out) there aren’t enough boys for the girls?
DY
“I disagree that that’s what most people mean.”I don’t have data, but (almost?) every article IVe read on the subject defines it that way eg see wikipedia
“The Shidduch crisis is a commonly observed and discussed phenomenon in the Orthodox Jewish community whereby eligible single persons, especially women, have difficulty finding a suitable spouse.”“Do you deny that there are a lot more older single girls than boys?”
i’m skeptical, those I’Ve spoken to all know more boys but admittedly I havent spoken to many shadchanim, “everybody” says there are more girsl, SO i concede that it ver ywell may be true and that although I and those around me do not see that, I must have a biased sample . (especially considering that logically more girls makes sense, see below)
“Do you deny that based on how our current shidduch system works (now how it theoretically could work, but how it does actually play out) there aren’t enough boys for the girls?”
I dont fully understand the question. There are “enough” but the way our system works puts a long delay on each individual girl getting a date, then the dating period lasts a long time. A Girl can go over the course of a year having dated 3-4 guys (and thats the lucky ones) As time moves on their do become less guys available but this is BECAUSE of our system.
So to directly answer your question, based on how our current shidduch system works No there arent enough boys for the girls nor are can there ever be. This is a falw in the system not the number“The Shidduch crisis is a commonly observed and discussed phenomenon in the Orthodox Jewish community whereby eligible single persons, especially women, have difficulty finding a suitable spouse.”
So I would say their definition is a combination.
The OP certainly was referring to the disparity.
I dont fully understand the question.
I’ll ask it a bit differently. If we cut dating out of the process, but kept the typical ages intact, would there be a disparity?
As time moves on their do become less guys available but this is BECAUSE of our system.
Wouldn’t you agree that there are fewer girls around as well? By the same number? The exact same number of guys and girls get married.
The exact same number of guys and girls get married.
I think we’ve found the problem.
(T)
I think we’ve found the problem.
And Joseph’s solution 🙄
“If we cut dating out of the process, but kept the typical ages intact, would there be a disparity?”
no .
Which brings me to my question to you
If we cut out the disparity, but kept our current dating prices would there still be a crises
(Again as defined by Wikipedia, though for this question leave out the “especially women” part .while you are thinking about that, consider this how easy do you think it will be to cut out the disparity?
“Wouldn’t you agree that there are fewer girls around as well? By the same number? ”
No because for boys age is less of an issue. It is not unheard of for a boy of 40 to marry a girl of 30. It is (almost?) unheard of for a girl of 40 to marry a boy of 30.
I don’t have actual numbers SO I don’t know, as I said I’m skeptical that there are much more older girls than guys.
Plus its easier for guys to get married again, and more guys leave the fold than girls (again no data pure boich sensation. So there are a lot of complicated pieces at play that make it hard to actually predict how many of each would be left.
nonetheless, if you insist that there are an equal number of girls and guys around, I can accept thatNo because for boys age is less of an issue.
Do you think the age gap theory math is wrong, or deny that there’s an age gap (or population growth)?
No because for boys age is less of an issue.
How does that decrease their numbers? If we start with the same number of boys and girls, and they marry at equal numbers, how do we end up with more girls?
there are a lot of complicated pieces at play that make it hard to actually predict how many of each would be left.
Agreed, but we don’t need precise numbers, and without any reasonable hypothesis that more girls leave than boys (I haven’t heard one), the larger number of girls is a problem.
If we cut out the disparity, but kept our current dating prices would there still be a crises
Our current dating practices include age gap, but I’ll assume you mean that we change the age of boys to a younger age, the boys marry older girls than current practice, or a combination.
The answer I believe is that we would still have some singles. We would certainly have fewer older single girls, and possibly fewer older single boys.
The reason I think we might even end up with fewer older single boys is because if we level the playing field somewhat, and take away some of the advantage boys currently have, we would very possibly cause the boys to have lower expectations, and that might help some of the tougher cases to get married.
Whether after these changes were affected we would still have a “crisis” depends on how you define crisis.
while you are thinking about that, consider this how easy do you think it will be to cut out the disparity?
I think the way to cut out the disparity is to cut down the gap.
I think cutting down the gap is a very difficult thing to do.
Assuming one were to stipulate that a “crisis” truly exits, does this so called crisis exist to the same extent in EY as here in the U.S. and if not, what would account for the differing circumstances.
GH, no (at least not to the same extent), because the boys in EY generally get married younger.
“I think cutting down the gap is a very difficult thing to do.”
It doesn’t appear to be very difficult to do for the Chasidim.
Joseph: It’s changing the mentality/The System that’s difficult. For Chasidim, their system has been in place for years.
So imagine someone of stature says that all Chasidish girls should marry at age 16 (assuming it’s legal and “normal”). Would you concede that it would be difficult to institute?
“we would very possibly cause the boys to have lower expectations,”
“I think cutting down the gap is a very difficult thing to do.”Thats a tough sell, you are advocating for a change that you admit is “very difficult” that would only “very possibly” actually help what the real problem is.
But ok, Lets try it I’m all for trying anything,
Though long can I expect to wait unti l real solutions are attempted? Ie either, that until you realize that either the gap wasn’t the problem or that it is impossible to correct.
10 years? 20? 50?As to some other points youve raised:
“Do you think the age gap theory math is wrong,”I think it is simplistic and while it would explain shidduch island or musical chairs with a fixed number of chairs and players it doesn’t explain the real world
Thats a tough sell, you are advocating for a change that you admit is “very difficult” that would only “very possibly” actually help what the real problem is.
You are mischaracterizing my position. I think it would solve a great deal of the “real problem”.
I do think it’s very difficult to completely close the gap to the point where there won’t be any disparity, but it’s not an all or nothing proposition.
I think it is simplistic and while it would explain shidduch island or musical chairs with a fixed number of chairs and players it doesn’t explain the real world
You haven’t done a very good job of explaining why it’s not true in the real world, and haven’t really responded to my specific challenges to your assertion that it does not apply to the real world.
Though long can I expect to wait unti l real solutions are attempted?
Real solutions have been and are being attempted.
Mammele, both examples might be difficult, but doable. “Very difficult” can imply close to practically undoable, which is incorrect imo.
“You are mischaracterizing my position. I think it would solve a great deal of the “real problem”.”
Sorry, I didint mean to mischaracterize your opinion. by “real problem” in that sentence I meant what I think the real problem is, namely the high expectations. Or as takes2 said “Their are way too many time consuming and decision making obstacles to overcome to even get to a first date.”
“Real solutions have been and are being attempted.”
I meant not age gap related.
After how long of trying that can we try something else?“You haven’t done a very good job of explaining …”
That may be true, I’m not a very good writer (no need to agree) and I often feel that I’m not explaining myself (my many typos don’t help).
Of course it is also possible, I’m not doing a good job explaining myself because I’m wrong. It seems so obvious to me that the Age gap makes zero sense, that I do sometimes wonder if maybe I’m missing something , how can people buy into this?
I certainly at the very least am not explaiing myself well.At any rate, I am not a big asken and am not able to get Rabbonimm to sign a kol koreh. so for now we are stuck grinding our wheels trying to close the “age gap” as the absurd dating system continues
In how long would you be willing to advocate trying something else (if either the age gap cant be closed, or if closing doesnt help)
We last discussed this about 5 years ago, If ch”v this is still nogeyah in 5 years would you entertain another possibility? 10? 20? 50?In how long would you be willing to advocate trying something else (if either the age gap cant be closed, or if closing doesnt help)
What do you recommend? I think other than age gap, the problems plaguing the shidduch system are general societal problems which manifest themselves particularly strongly in shidduchim; they’re not problems specifically in the way shidduchim are done. I don’t necessarily think they’re any easier to solve than closing the age gap.
Ubiq – your last post is excellent. You say everything i have thought and i too wonder why people dont get it. You have explained yourself very well, more than once, more than that even, why it doesnt work in real life. At this point there is not much left to add. Thanks for speaking out tho, not just for me but many others who, like you, are working on ourselves in order to fix the problem.
I think we need to get people to meet more
At meals by mutual friends
at weddings
speed dating
singles eventsThe amount of effort, begging research etc just for a couple to go out is absurd.
At least by chasidim once they “go out” odds are almost certain that they’ll get married
Weve managed to combine the bad part of chasidish dating with the bad part of modern dating and we have this crazy system where there is so much effort just to get a couple to go out. and even once they do go out it is more likely than not that the shiduch wont progress.
We need to either get people to relax their criteria before going out, or the opposite enhance the criteria so once it is agreed to go out they will most likely marry .I think the first is more realistic though I’m fine with either.
I think the first is more realistic
I think they’re both unrealistic.
I do hear your point, but it doesn’t seem to be the case that boys sit around for that long without dates, so I’m not sure that’s the big ikuv here.
I should add that you say that we’ve combined the worst of both, but I don’t see how the modern system (which isn’t really much of a system) works any better, or would work for BMG type yeshiva bochurim and BY girls.
And I don’t think the chsssidish system, which does seem to work much better in terms of setting up matches, would work for American litvish style bochurim in terms of sholom bayis.
Ubiq: What is “the bad part of chasidish dating” that you refer to? If it is that they research so much (far more than the Litvish) before seeing each other, how can you say it is bad if the system works well for them? In fact, they don’t have the shidduch crisis nearly to the extent as the Litvish have it.
And the MO do not have less if a shidduch crisis than the Litvish do (in fact you could argue they have it even worse), so how does your proposal that the Litvish adopt many aspects of the Modern Orthodox dating system, such as guys and gals hooking up at meals, weddings and events, going to help the Litvish when it isn’t helping the MO have a better marriage system than the Litvish? What leads you to believe such changes would be beneficial to the Litvish?
DY: Why would American Litvish style bochurim in terms of sholom bayis have it differently than American Chasidish bochurim in terms of sholom bayis, it they both followed the same system?
Different expectations for what a marriage is supposed to look like. V’ein kan makom l’ha’arich.
DY: Can you explain in more detail how a typical American Litvish marriage differs so much from a typical American Chasidish marriage?
Joseph
“What is “the bad part of chasidish dating” that you refer to? If it is that they research so much (far more than the Litvish) before seeing each other, how can you say it is bad if the system works well for them?”“Bad” wasnt the best choice of words. Its bad when all the research is separated from actually getting married
“What leads you to believe such changes would be beneficial to the Litvish?
To paraphrase, Differetn expectations for where dating is supposed to lead . V’ein kan makom l’ha’arich.
syag
thank you for the kind wordsJoseph, which part of “V’ein kan makom l’ha’arich” do you not understand? Perhaps ubiquitin could explain it to you. 😉
Ubiq: “Its bad when all the research is separated from actually getting married”
Why/how is that bad?
“To paraphrase, Differetn expectations for where dating is supposed to lead .”
I asked you how if the Litvish change their system to be more like the Modern Orthodox, as you proposed that the Litvish allow boys and girls to directly hookup at weddings and other events. How’s “different expectations” explain why the Litvish should partially switch to the MO model?
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