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Why is it so difficult for otherwise intelligent people to accept that something is seriously wrong with our dating system if it’s leaving thousands of girls single?
We are B”H so ingrained that shidduchim are min hashamayim that we assume that we take no responsibility for this situation.
I believe this phenomena is so difficult for some people to accept it puts them into a state of denial.Why do you assume that a healthy society has 100% of girls get married?
Are you allowing for people to have other views of what the problem is or are you also one of those who believes that if we dont go for your version of the problem then we’re in denial? I would love to find age gappers who are willing to have a two sided conversation with unlike minded posters.
It would help get people on board if you could somehow demonstrate in a compelling way that so very many more frum women remain single (never married) into their 40s and older than guys in the same age range.
Haimy; Are you a frustrated shadchan who feels respnsiblle for all the clients you’ve been unsucessful with?? Otherwise, stop peddling this “crisis” nareshkeit because the majority of those here don’t accept your assertions and efforts to further demonize single frum women.
Please show me where there are so many single girls yet not so many single guys, cuz I seem to know many of both… Of course, I am not a cross section of the population, but it seems to be the case in general. And in many cases, older singles are single because of some issue, whether a personality issue, mental issue, or picky (issue). Not all, but oh, so many.
I’m not taking any sides but I suggest everybody go onto Wikipedia and see if there even the same amount of girls as boys or the opposite. You might be surprised by what you see, it far from even. Gotta check it out.
I would like to suggest the following. For all those that can not understand that this has to be the case from a simple mathematical analysis which I would be happy to explain again, can one of these mathematics deniers explain how boys can marry into a younger population and not have an uneven amount of people in the equation? Which point in this equation is incorrect? Does he not believe that there is population growth? Does he not believe most boys are marrying average 3 yrs younger? Does he not believe boys are on average getting married at 22-23 or more? Do they believe 2+2 =5? Unless we can understand these peoples thought processes (or lack thereof) s it is hard to even have a conversation with them. The answer to this self inflicted mathematical dilemma, caused by us, must be clear please – not narishkeit, bitochin or otherwise. I Believe this crisis is one of the largest facing our nation at this time, facing a very large percent of us people, and one of the few that is completely fixable just with some education and marketing.
I’m not taking any sides but I suggest everybody go onto Wikipedia and see if there even the same amount of girls as boys or the opposite. You might be surprised by what you see, it far from even. Gotta check it out. Search Lakewood population wiki and you’ll see it same for any neighborhood for example “Brooklyn population Wiki”.
There is also another common issue: single by choice.
Listen, I know many more boys than girls. Which leads me to conclude that we just know different people.
It’s the same process as being an anti-vaxxer: total denial of all logic in favor of being part of a social club of like-minded weirdos. Part of me wants to say that if the yeshivish community wants to be so stupid, then they deserve it. But, the individual girls don’t deserve to suffer from the mistakes of prior generations.
Are you allowing for people to have other views of what the problem is
Do you mean the problem, or the cause of the problem?
There can be multiple problems, and multiple causes of any or all of the problems.
efforts to further demonize single frum women.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Gotta check it out.
From what I’ve seen, in the U.S. there are about 2% more boys born than girls, and girls survive childhood illnesses at a higher rate than boys, so the discrepancy is slightly less when they reach the age for shidduchim.
Do you have a different observation?
For the most part we dont have a shidduch crisis.
However many shidduchim dont even get off the ground ,because many questions are asked in a way with not much seichel . There is a way to ask and then theres a way to ask and then for many question you can get 100 andwers and all answers are true.
Use your god given brains before you undertake the task of setting a couple . And yes im referring to seasoned shadchonim too.
For example,
Here is a list of mostly rediculous questions:How do people perceive him/her?
What does s/he do in spare time (for boys in learning: bein hazmanin, bein hasedarim)?
What are his/her real values? Give examples.
What is his/her biggest mailah (strongest point)? Best middos?
Is s/he the type of boy(girl) that will do anything for a friend? Ask for examples
Scale of 1-10 is s/he warm/giving?
Scale of 1-10, reserved or outgoing? Serious or funny?
What type of friends does s/he have? Are they into fashion? Sophisticated? Is s/he also like that?
Attitude towards money?
What are his/her practices about: watching movies? Videos? Using the internet? Smart phone?
Does he/she care how he/she keeps his/her room? Messy or neat?
Does s/he clean up after him/herself? Does s/he help at home?
How does s/he interact with parents? Are they respectful or adversarial?
What does he do in his spare time?
Does he Drive aggressively?
How does he deal with frustration?
Does he lose his temper?
Is he cynical?
Character Traits
Baal middos? Mensch? Kind, Helpful? Considerate of others? What makes you say that?Is he honest? Have you ever heard him say something not true?
Is he responsible?
How does he socially and emotionally interact with friends & rebbeim?
Sociable/ gregarious or constantly immersed in his seforim?
In regard to roommates: is he considerate, quiet, personal hygiene?
Is he a doer? Is he always busy taking care of things? Or does he focus more on his own learning?
Frumkeit
Does he have a Rav/Rebbe whom he respects? To whom he asks his questions?Is he on time to davening most of the time?
How long is he planning to learn?How seriously does he take his learning?
Is he in the beis medrash on time? Or more relaxed about attendance?
Current Status
Is he is employed? Studying for a degree? Where? What are his career plans?If he is not in Bais Medrash fulltime, does he have a learning schedule?
Questions Regarding Girls
“How does she dress?” “Describe what she wears?” rather than “Does she dress with tzniyus?”Is she flexible/go with the flow?
How much time does she spend with makeup/clothes, etc?
Is she punctual?
Describe relationships with family members
Is she helpful in the kitchen, around the house?
What does she do with her spare time?
What could you tell me about her davening?
Why type of chessed is she involved in?
Is she looking for a short or long term learner? A guy with a plan? Or, someone currently employed?
What are her plans regarding working?
Would she give her family priority over her career?
If the girl is known as a successful Morah, this is already a significant character endorsement, since the students reject teachers who have major faults.
Asking for clothing size gives a message about the priorities of the boy, perhaps better avoided.
About the Parents/Home
Ask shul members or neighbors how they perceive the parents: easy going or difficult? controlling? happy?Do they seem to get along well with people?
Is there shalom bayis?
How is the household run, is it hefker or are parents involved in children’s lives?
Are they generous? With their time for children and giving what their children need, or are they too generous, giving more than they need?
Are parents overly involved their adult childrens’ lives? What makes you say that?
Are the living standards very high or low? Ask for concrete examples, since this area is very subjective. Parents need to consider if their child would be able to handle this kind of living standard.
Is the father machshiv Torah?
How does the mother dress?
Are there genetic health issues?
> Single by choice
Do you mean that guys are staying single and thereby making it harder for girls to find someone to marry, or are you suggesting that many of the single girls choose to not marry, which no-one is talking about, here or elsewhere.In a healthy society, all of the people who want to get married would be able to.
If you don’t believe this constant drumbeat of “crisis” in relation to single girls not finding shiduchim doesn’t have a debilitating and stigmatizing effect on a baas yisroel in her mid 20s to early 30s who has not yet found her beschert or has simply made a decision to defer marriage, It is you who is in denial.
For the most part we dont have a shidduch crisis.
If you mean that most people get married, I guess you’re right…
yochy
“For all those that can not understand that this has to be the case from a simple mathematical analysis ”I think you fall into Haimy’s group.
We have all heard the spiel over and over. and intelligent people can see right through it.
There are dozens of threads on this
Lets take an obvious flaw
you say
” Does he not believe most boys are marrying average 3 yrs younger?”
some mathematicians are saying most does not equal all.
So if as few as 5% of boys marry girls their age or older the theory kind of falls apart.More importantly as I have demonstrated many many times (though it has been a while) the Age Gap TM doesn’t explain the real problem which is the Dating Divide TM
In the past 5 years has the Age gap improved?
Has the Shiduch Crises improved?So if as few as 5% of boys marry girls their age or older the theory kind of falls apart.
For those girls, I guess it does… What about the rest?
Also, what if another 5% of boys married girls 6 years apart?> there are about 2% more boys born than girls, and girls survive childhood illnesses at a higher rate than boys, so the discrepancy is slightly less when they reach the age for shidduchim. Or do you have a different observation
People in this thread keep thinking that their observation means anything at all.
The actual numbers are very clear, and simple.
First, what you said is just wrong: in the general population, by age 19, the numbers are equal, and at all higher ages women outnumber men, more strongly every year.
More importantly, the year-on-year growth of our community is an even stronger effect. I’ll be very simple here: every year, there are more babies born to frum yidden, B”H. That means there are more 20-year-olds than 23-year-olds. Even if every 23-year-old boy marries a 20-year-old girl, there will be girls “left over”. The bigger the age gap, the more girls will be “left over”.
There are lots of other factors, but they’re just “nibbling around the edges” compared to the big numbers we’re talking about here.
> if as few as 5% of boys marry girls their age or older the theory kind of falls apart
No, it means the problem would be 5% (or maybe 10% if they’re significantly older) less bad. 90% of a really bad problem is still a really bad problem.
Please explain the Dating Divide; I’m not familiar with that. (Really; I’m not sarcastic; I’m from Yennevelt.)
I don’t understand what you are saying about 5%. Lets think this through. If 5 percent marry people of the same age that takes even numbers of even men and women out of the equation . But there are still 95 % of people that are marrying into younger pools of women. so there is still virtually the same issue
For example if there are 90 22 yr old boys and 100 19 yr old girl at one time and 5 of the boys marry a 22 year old girl – now there are 85 boys and 100 19 year old girls and 5 less 22 yr old girls so you helped out now some of the left people from the previous years problem but now you have at least as large a problem going forward. unless equal numbers go for equal numbers it would seem that math can not be tampered with and it is a pretty brutal deal. I understood the age gap to be the same as dating divide. what is your meaning of dating divide?
OP: “Why is it so difficult for otherwise intelligent people to accept that something is seriously wrong with our dating system if it’s leaving thousands of girls single?”
For one, you are not showing that this is any different than it has been historically–show us some statistics that demonstrate this has not always been the case. Then we can more easily discuss the causes.
Yochy, “or older”.
“Please explain the Dating Divide”
glad too
Though I coined it so any funds you make off it must be shared with mefirst a question:
(although I cant help bu notice although 3 people commented on my shaky math, none answered my questions: In the past 5 years has the Age gap improved? Has the Shiduch Crises improved?” )anyway onto my question:
where is the hold up in the shiduch crises tM
in other words typically these are the steps to a successful shiduch:
1) Girl is mentioned to Guy
2) Guy agrees to go out
3) Girls agrees)
4) They date
5) they get engaged
6) they get marriedWhere is the “backlog” are guys not hearing of the girls (step 1) are the girls not getting “yesses” to go out( step 2) are the girls not agreeing (step 3) etc etc.?
where is the greatest number of singles at which stage do they get stuck?DY
“For those girls, I guess it does… What about the rest?” they marry boys their age, younger or older. It isn’t a closed system.Yankel and yochy
“No, it means the problem would be 5% (or maybe 10% if they’re significantly older) less bad.”
“and 5 of the boys marry a 22 year old girl”Yes and 5 marry a >23 year old girl now there are 80 boys who want to marry 100 19 year old girls.
They do. leaving 20 19 year old girls 10 of whom marry boys who havent started dating yet are aged 20-22 and 10 who have to wait real long as they marry boys younger than them.Of course they first have to live in terror due to people offering all sorts of scare tacticis in an effort to avoid any real change based on shoddy math.
I wonder if it is even possible to eliminate the age gap in a society where men choose which woman they will marry. After all, you’ll need to convince most men to choose to marry a somewhat older woman when they have the ability to choose a younger woman.
As opposed to a society where, for the most part, someone other than the couple choose who will marry who. Like by the Chasidim.
So the Litvaks are going to be stuck with the age gap, and its consequences, unless they virtually fully adopt the Chasidish dating/marriage model.
Klal Yisroel used to virtually across the board follow what’s today known as the Chasidish dating/marriage model until about a hundred or so years ago. In fact, almost all goyim did as well. The switch to the love/marriage/choose-your-own-girl model got us stuck with the age gap.
Doesnt every person have a bashert? If everyone is marrying their bashert then it doesnt make a difference what the statistics say. Anyone who has emuna should believe that their bashert is still put out there…
Lol
“Klal Yisroel used to virtually across the board follow what’s today known as the Chasidish dating/marriage model until about a hundred or so years ago. ”Sure we all recall laining about Moshe Rabbeinu’s Beshow ia few weeks back . Ot Yaakov’s a few months back.
Of course the Mishna at the end of Taanis sounds exactly like my chasidish neioghbor who found his wife while she danced in the vineyard saying (singing?) her praises.
DY
“For those girls, I guess it does… What about the rest?” they marry boys their age, younger or older. It isn’t a closed system.By definition, the rest don’t marry the same age or younger. Otherwise you would have said a number higher than 5%.
DY
the 5% are 5% of boys. (I didnt work out the numbers, the point is not all boys are “locked in” marrying only those girls.
The “90 22 yr old boys and 100 19 yr old girl” dynamic just doesnt describe reality.Boys mature later, so a same-age boy is like a younger boy.
ubiq: What’s beshows have to do with anything? How do you think shidduchim were made until World War I in Europe and in the Sephardic lands? It wasn’t boy meets girl, falls in love, gets married. It wasn’t even shadchan redts shidduch, couple goes on dates to local venues, decides whether to marry. No. For the most part from the time of the churban Beis HaMikdash until World War I the parents would make most of the decisions. Who their children could consider for marriage. And who their children will see. Then the the children would have a short meeting or two and if there were no major objections, and the children were quite young to even know any reason to object, it would be a Mazal Tov!
The goyim didn’t do things that much differently from that either.
Yes, there were a minute amount of exceptions, but for the vast amount of society that was more or less “the system”.
Once boys started picking and choosing, they picked usually girls as young as they could get and often frowned on anything older than they could otherwise get, even being disinclined to consider girls their own age.
Haimy I find your comment very strange, “Why is it so difficult for otherwise intelligent people to accept that something is seriously wrong with our dating system if it’s leaving thousands of girls single?”
for every single girl there’s a single boy. do you only care about the females? Aren’t the men suffering too?
the 5% are 5% of boys. (I didnt work out the numbers, the point is not all boys are “locked in” marrying only those girls.
Whatever. My point still stands. Both points, in fact.
The age gap theory makes sense number wise, but it is not the only contributing factor, and sometimes it feels that those promoting it are ignoring other issues that also need addressing- and these are not side issues. So people who are not going for the age gap theory are not in denial that there is a shidduch cirsis, or however you want to define it, they are just being more open to other valid explanations. If every single boy was married and only girls were left, then the age gap would explain it all.
But…
The fact is that there are plenty of older boys not married as well. The age gap does not address this fact.
The fact is that older singles do get married (not all, but a lot) but not until their 30s perhaps, meanwhile suffering for years, and losing out on a family they could have had. The age gap does not address this fact.
When I started dating nearly 3 decades ago, the boys also had lists of girls that outnumbered the boys 10:1, there were unmarried older singles, and this was before the population explosion.Why does it take so long for some people to find each other? As ubiquitin stated, what part of the process is going wrong? Is the problem in the networking, getting the right names? The actual dating process? The attitude to dating/marriage? For different people, there will be different answers. We need to figure out what goes wrong and how to solve it- better preparation, dating coaching, helping youngsters figure out who they are and what they really need in a spouse before they start dating, improved networking- especially for OOTers and those who wouldn’t be getting redt shidduchim otherwise, maybe making use of databases.
The good thing about all this discussion, is that it shows that people care and that singles should not feel ostracized or alone.
> for every single girl there’s a single boy.
The heart of the “age-gap” theory is that this is not true, so long as most matches are between an older boy and a younger girl.
I understand why trump/anti trump threads are so angry and vax/anti vax, but I don’t get why this topic causes so much aggression toward anyone trying to get a word in edgewise about having a different view? We often see different causes behind the same issues and we are able to discuss it, why is this so different?
Winnie: Yasher koach for a clear, cogent and incredibly well stated explaination of an issue for some that is NOT a “crisis:” as one might incorrectly conclude from the bi-monthly thread here in the CR on some variation of that fake crisis. As others have noted, simply removing the parents and shadchanim from the equation and allowing young men and women to engage in their own meetings, dates, etc. is more likely to result in successful long-term relationships than the highly structured and often forced meetings many rely upon today in the frum tzibur.
Thr shadchanim for the most part are afraid of any major change which may affect thier wallets snd po pocket. bookets snd thats why its mostly famous shadchanim who will say there are no crisis.
Takes2 – back to the anti yeshivish again? Why do you hate it so much?
As others have noted, simply removing the parents and shadchanim from the equation and allowing young men and women to engage in their own meetings, dates, etc. is more likely to result in successful long-term relationships than the highly structured and often forced meetings many rely upon today in the frum tzibur.
choosing a halachically inappropriate option as the solution is just dumb. I agree that the system is not working, and I agree that the age gap theory is just a way for people to live in denial of the efforts they need to put in to finding a shidduch, but I don’t find any evidence that coed life is the way to assure people find the right match. Having several relatives practicing that approach, I have not found it to be a shoe in for meeting your bashert. Or did you mean something more structured?
and sometimes it feels that those promoting it are ignoring other issues that also need addressing- and these are not side issues.
The age gap theory explains the disparity, not overall numbers.
Age gap proponents haven’t solved world hunger either, but why is that specifically their responsibility?
The two issues are certainly related, but that doesn’t mean they have the same cause and are dealt with the same way.
When I started dating nearly 3 decades ago, the boys also had lists of girls that outnumbered the boys 10:1, there were unmarried older singles, and this was before the population explosion.
There was already enough population growth which would allow age gap to cause a disparity. People were unaware of the age gap explanation, but it was true then too.
The good thing about all this discussion, is that it shows that people care and that singles should not feel ostracized or alone.
This I agree with, and I appreciate the positivity. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that people who are trying to help by identifying and trying to correct a demographic issue are somehow to blame for not necessarily identifying and correcting other issues, and aderaba, are somehow accused of “demonizing” women.
Thr shadchanim for the most part are afraid of any major change which may affect thier wallets snd po pocket.
Closing the age gap won’t decrease the number of shidduchim made; if anything, lowering the typical age at which boys start the process will increase the workload of shadchanim.
But don’t let logic get in the way of a good rant. 😉
Daas, no one is expected to solve all issues – and get rid of world hunger at the same time- just trying to explain why not everyone is jumping on the age gap wagon- because there need to be other people who are dealing with the other issues. Sometimes when one aspect is pushed with lots of PR it pushes other issues to the side so that people stop thinking about them. It would be harmful to conclude that solving the age gap will solve the issues of unmarried singles; it will even out the playing field, but one would not yet be able to pat oneself on the proverbial back with “job well done”. The other issues would still need addressing to help singles get married.
just trying to explain why not everyone is jumping on the age gap wagon- because there need to be other people who are dealing with the other issues. Sometimes when one aspect is pushed with lots of PR it pushes other issues to the side so that people stop thinking about them.
Sorry, that’s just not a good reason to ignore the disparity, or tell people that they they’re demonizing women, they’re in denial about other issues, or that there isn’t a shidduch crisis, etc.
I think you made some good points earlier:
Why does it take so long for some people to find each other? As ubiquitin stated, what part of the process is going wrong? Is the problem in the networking, getting the right names? The actual dating process? The attitude to dating/marriage? For different people, there will be different answers. We need to figure out what goes wrong and how to solve it- better preparation, dating coaching, helping youngsters figure out who they are and what they really need in a spouse before they start dating, improved networking- especially for OOTers and those who wouldn’t be getting redt shidduchim otherwise, maybe making use of databases.
I think dating coaches and databases are good ideas. Especially dating coaches. It seems to me that it’s far too common for singles (especially older singles) to turn down good shidduch prospects for what seems like, from an outsider’s perspective, issues that could be worked on.
Of course, “helping youngsters figure out who they are and what they really need in a spouse before they start dating” is a good idea, although sometimes they need to start dating until they figure it out; the thing is, that’s not specifically a shidduch issue, it’s more of a life issue.
improved networking- especially for OOTers
I believe NASI has put in significant efforts in that regard.
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