Shidduch �Crisis�, Daas Torah and Hishtadlos

SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified. In regards to the ear infection, the rav will say go to the doctor because he is an anav and not like the rest of us who feel we can make decisions based on nothing. We feel we are chachamim today because we know medicine or stock markets or whatever your field is however we are exactly the opposite. However, if they feel they are qualified to speak about this shidduch, they 100% should because they know emes. Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem. (I’m not infering anything just making a general statement.) Rabbanim will also rarly say drop the shidduch unless the feel there is an extreme nesecity; rather, they will speak to you until you have come to a firm desicion as I know from experience.

Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.

SJS, there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says. There are some people who are able to be mevatel daas to the Daas Torah and will follow the Rov’s advice to the letter without questioning. This is a high level to reach and those who live this way are not harmed by it (quite the opposite, in fact). I wish I could be that way for everything.

Your last statement is utterly bogus and shows a lack of respect for Chachomim. In the example you gave, (if I was on the level I described above) I would accept the Rov’s decision on which antibiotic. And since I have emunas Chachomim, I would KNOW that the Rov is only telling me this because he knows what he is talking about. Otherwise, he would have recommended a physician I should go to for advice.

You may or may not believe this, but I personally DO take extensive medical advice from a certain Rov. At first, I didn’t tell the doctor about this, but when I eventually did the doctor told me that he knows this Rov very well (because many others who go to him take the Rov’s advice also) and that he learned a thing or two from the Rov. I assure you that in the case of a contradiction I would blindly the Rov’s decision. Ironically, the only time I was so to speak led astray was the time when the Rov told me he didn’t know the situation well enough and I should follow the doctor’s advice.

Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem.

Tal, this is false. You have to be on the lookout to make sure that your Rav is always true to Torah. Shabtai Tzvi led many people astray. Yes, he was a rare case, but ultimately YOU are responsible for yourself. If you find that your Rav is possibly veering away from halacha (and lets say in an extreme example says shrimp is kosher), you have to find out whats going on. Rabbonim are human – most of them are absolutely wonderful and follow halacha, but some can go astray. Trusting Hashem implicitely is very different from trusting a human being (albeit one on a higher spiritual madrega).

Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.

I don’t think this statement is accurate. It would be hard to verify though. While they might be much better at this than most of us, they are still human and have faults the way the rest of us do. And, if we transmit the information poorly, they won’t neccesarily understand the situation properly and give bad information. Its not that they are wrong, but ultimately, you would have followed their advice which could have been disasterous.

there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says.

You say EITZAH, I said ADVICE. I never said don’t ask, but I did say that YOU have to make the decision and that YOU are the one who lives with it. Is your Rav looking out for what’s best? YES. Does this mean he cannot be wrong? NO.

Also, my childhood Rav happens to be a doctor as well. So in that case, I could trust him if I asked him about antibiotics. But I wouldn’t ask the Rav of my shul right now because other than being a parent himself (and thus presumably having lots of ear infection experience), he is not an expert in the field. If I had a halachic medical question, then of course I would turn to my Rav. There is a great distinction.

I think GAW also had some great points.

gavra:

You said: Who knows better, the expert who knows the case and has studied the field or the Rav who does not?

tal already answered this point of yours, prior to your comment: SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified… Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain… and see tal’s entire comment above.)

You said: The rav can tell her she is a Moredes if she does not go to him. Then it is her choice to go or not.

No, its not a matter of choice. If she is a moredes, she is obligated to take corrective action to ensure she is no longer moredes. (If she fails to, there are consequences. But she was still obligated to stop being a moredes.)

SJS, what does Eitzah mean if not advice?

GAW: No matter what, having my Rov’s advice is more valuable than not. I can decide before I ask him how much I will be bound by what he says, and his answer may differ based on my approach. But I already know that for most things, if he has something to say about it I will listen.

Squeak, I was just pointing out that regarding advice, we were both sort of saying the same thing.

So, we have to deal realisticaly. As the shadchanim and parents know they are pushing for direct and immediate answers, they should stop because the girls are to weak and they are being harmed by those responsible for their welfare.

I agree with you about having the pressure stopped, but I also think we need to teach young women how to stand up for themselves. This is one of the most important decisions they are going to make in life, and if they cannot stand up for themselves at this junction, how are they going to do it for other important things?

As for your point about rabbonim – I don’t know where you get this idea that rabbonim are infallible. That is NOT a Jewish concept. Even Moshe Rabbenu made mistakes. We are all human, and while our rabbonim may be closer to truth than we are, they still can make mistakes.

As for rabbonim being against Shabtai Tzvi – many rabbonim were against Chassidus originally! Does that mean Chassidus is anti-halacha? NO. You cannot just use that statement to say well no one is against my Rabbi…

You are 100% correct that I don’t know who your rabbonim are – I never said I did. And to be honest, my rabbonim have NEVER put me in a situation where I thought they were doing anything that was against halacha or answering a question that they were not qualified for. BUT! That doesn’t mean its not my responsibility to make sure that when they give ADVICE to me, that I think about it and decide if its actually best for me. I am the one who has to live with it.

I think you need to seperate your responsibilities (ie making sure that you Rav is not slowly veering off the derech or giving you bad advice or overstepping his bounds in an area he has no knowledge…) from your Rav’s responsibility of making sure he is giving you good, solid advice that is within the bounds of halacha and that he has knowledge for. Now, usually both sides do what they should, but I think its naive to say “Just because my Rav gave me some advice means I should take it.”

My mother was close to her Rav from growing up. She and I had a problem at some point and she consulted him. He gave her advice that would have been absolutely disasterous for us. She did NOT take his advice and everything worked out. Had she taken his advice, it very possibly could have splintered our relationship. So who was right? In this case, not the Rav. This is a rare occurance, and the Rav thought he was acting according to the best interest of all parties involved, but was still WRONG.

Please understand that I am not talking about getting a halachic psak, which is binding (unless its proven to be against halacha).

Dating and marriage have a lot to do with your own feelings, and nobody will ever be able to help you those elements. Any good adviser will tell you that.

But there are times when you just don’t know –

“Is this problem going to affect a marriage?”

“Does it matter that this bothers me?”

“Does this normally change?”

“Did I judge properly?”

I feel bad for the people who boldly trust themselves on these types of decisions. I’ve been badly burnt by trusting advice Rabbonim have given me, but I still go back the same people for advice. Nobody could have done better, and I would be worse off by trusting myself.

The truth is, in this business, it’s very clear that there is a strong Yad Hashem in everything that happens and everyone needs a sort of Hashgacha to get anywhere. So it would pay to try to follow Daas Torah and Halacha in every step…

Just a few clarifications, again addressing point by point:

squeak – re: your comments of the rolling in snow and mussar, I do believe you are referencing what they did in Novardok — which is of fairly recent vintage i.e early 1900’s — and the Alter of Navardok was a talmid of Rav Yisrael Salanter and the mussar movement. I’m not sure how you are fitting that into Chasidus.

squeak – can you please elucidate that with more details?

Your description of rolling in the snow for mussar purposes fits in with what the Alter of Novardok had his talmidim do – they rolled around in the snow and layed down in graves, “al derech mussar”.

Which Chasidim did similar? And what were the original misnagdim’s taaina on the Chasidim? And was that taaina applicable to the original talmidim of the Baal Shem?

Squeak, my mother does consult her Rav quite a bit. He has always given great advice to her – in this case, he was wrong. Had she followed his advice, at best, my relationship with my mother would be strained and at worst we would have no relationship anymore. I am thankful that she took his advice, thought about it, and realized that this was wrong. And no, she didn’t “throw the baby out with the bathwater” and would still consult him. She still trusts him. But advice is that – it should be thought through before deciding whether or not to follow.

As for chassidus – yes, it evolved. Every part of our religion has evolved over the years. I’m too lazy to keep debating this point though, because its so far off from the point. We can start a new thread if you like.

I honestly don’t think I am anything close to a person who has a lot of gaavah (eh, I have a large dose of chutzpah sometimes). I DO NOT think I am better or smarter or more knowledgable than rabbonim. If something seems wrong though, I think its my responsibility to make sure that it is correct. If I am given a halachic psak that seems off to me, I would go to a different Rav to find out how to proceed – maybe have him check it out for me or something. I am NOT saying to pasken for yourself.

When it comes to advice though, you may want to ask your Rav what he thinks. Does he think you should blindly follow his advice? He might tell you that its only advice and that you have to make sure its 100% applicable to the situation. I really recommend you do disucss this with your Rav to get his opinion.

I honestly hope that you never get a bad piece of advice that you follow blindly, because it may shake your foundation of trust in your Rav. After all, if you think you have to follow his advice without thinking about it and he was wrong, what else could he be wrong about?

As for my situation – the Rav did everything right – he spoke to both of us, understood the situation etc etc. He explained his reasoning to my mother. And guess what, he was wrong. That happens – its ok that it happens. But thats why he gave advice and not a psak.

I see that the issue of ‘daas torah’ rears its head every time. The posters who know me will know what my view is about this but I was truly astounded to read ‘tal’s words.

“My rabbonim are not wrong” she writes. NEVER???? Even Moshe rabbeinu was wrong at times…

“if you are true yrei elokim, it would not occur”. You mean to tell me that a Rov- or Godol, for that matter” never had a “takoloh’ ( failure) in his life???

To insist that the above two statements are truesmacks of another religion , not Judaism…..

And,BTW, many Gedolim supported Shabtai Zvi- did they not make a mistake? How about rabbi Akiva and Bar kochba?

My point in these forii has always been that we are all human-yes, human,tal- and only the Almighty is infallible. BTW- the gemoro that you quote has nothing to do with our discussion, It deals with the power of prayer and that the previous generations were alwyas better than us- a statement that I readily concur with.

Lastly, there are many rebbes (and the Chazon ish)who gave medical advice. I am pretty usre they were “anavim”.

Methinks- tal- that you are still ab it young!

SJS, I’ve just returned from a really long day at school w labs, research, and professors. Therefore, forgive me if I come across as harsh. I am absolutly exhausted.

The argument in this thread is refered to in the language of logic as a fallacy. The conversation is completly circular. We are both repeating statments and therefore it is pointless.

Anyone here can think of hundreds of instances in tanach where we were punished for judging our judges and multiple chazals stating the way we must approach and consider our rabbanim. My words will be interperted strictly and multiple personal examples will be used as some could possibly think incorrectly as appropriate premises for your conclusion. Your arguments may appear valid however they are neither valid nor sound. Because, after all, tanach can’t be applied to everything in this universe even though torah preceded the world. (The reason for the conclusion I have argued must follow because the torah’s arguments are both valid and sound.)

Now that this is over, the convesation between squeak and joseph is much more interesting. Do you want to watch that one with me?

Joseph, I am far from comfortable blurbing the words of Harav Chaim Volozhin. Especially in this Shaar. He uses some very powerful words, and I could never repeat them for common distribution (I’m sure you will understand exactly what I mean).

The argument in this thread is refered to in the language of logic as a fallacy.

I agree – and think that its on your end. If I am “too far to the left for you,” realize, even squeak (who I usually end up disagreeing with) said that advice is NOT binding.

Don’t take my word for it – discuss it with YOUR rav. I cannot imagine that a (non-chasidish) Rav would tell you to follow his advice blindly. There is a reason he is offering advice and not a psak.

Also realize, that while your Rav may give you the right piece of advice at the time, by the time you implement it it may be wrong. Does that mean your Rav is wrong? No, but it might have meant you should have re-evaluated to make sure the advice fit, rather than just follow it blindly.

I wish you much hatzlacha in your life journey.

As ridiculous as responding is, I still want the last word. (People just think I’m older; but, I’m still a kid.)

All of the Torah is [(forever living in the hearts and minds of) is English we use determine] determined by our chachamim. (All A is B)

And, the entire world is a constant reflection of Torah. (All C is A)

And, since A, B and C exist; the world is determined by the chachamim. (All C is B.)

Proving validity is easy according to the modern logic system. (Easier if I would know enough to understand Torah.) It is sound to because the premises are written in the Torah. There is no rebuttal until the day someone proves one letter in the Torah incorrect. Because that is impossible, the argument stands as fact. Your argument cannot be arranged as such.

Sometimes, the only way to force acceptance of an opinion is harsh language, which is the reason why we are commanded to put on an angry face for our children.

GAW she is trying to prove that Rabbonim are never wrong.

You are wrong about my mothers Rav – it was a matter of philisophical differences relating to handling the situation and he was wrong. You can accept it or not, but he was wrong. It doesnt mean he is a bad Rav, just that he gave one bad piece of advice.

I am not quite sure what you mean by Rabbonim determine reality – if they did, wouldnt they create a system where all men could sit and learn Torah and all women could stay home and raise their kids? That is NOT a reality they can create. That is a reality that HASHEM can create. Rabbonim are human beings and while they are closer to Hashem than we are, they are still human and make mistakes. The Torah tells us this!

You are also confusing a HALACHIC PSAK and ADVICE/EITZAH. Does squeak sound like someone who is anti-Torah or rabbonim? He agrees that advice DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED.

Lets look at this simple example: You hear that your Rabbi makes the best cholent. You ask him for advice and he tells you he recommends trying a red onion and adding that to your cholent. You try it but decide that you like your version (frying a vidalia onion) better because its sweeter. You approach your Rabbi and ask him respectfully if he ever thought of using a vidalia onion instead of a red onion. He said he tried it but it made the cholent too sweet. How would you keep making your cholent now?

Silly example, sure. But where do you draw the line with advice that has to be followed? I do it at a HALACHIC PSAK – that needs to be followed. Advice does not.

Now lets try another logic argument:

1) All human beings are flawed (Only Hashem is perfect)

2) All rabbonim are human

If 1 and 2 are correct, then all rabbonim are flawed. Now, granted they have LESS flaws than most of us and are much closer to Hashem than most of us, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES.

Is there a reason you are reluctant to discuss this with your Rabbi?

You can have the last word when you PROVE ME WRONG or I get bored of this. The latter is more likely as I am already losing interest.

GAW:

My rabanim are not wrong. Those that are, are not the ones that have sufficiantly proven themselves as yarei elokim and talmedie chachamim.

That is a direct quote from Tal and what I have been trying to clarify with her.

Can we start a new thread about rabbonim creating reality? I am interested and don’t really know anything on that topic. We can try to keep it appropriate.

I understand where SJS is coming from, and don’t think it is fair to belittle her ideas, whether or not you are in agreement. I don’t have to accept every word that every poster says as being Torah m’Sinai, in order to learn something from those words. Whatever your personal hashkafa, you can reflect on a statement and agree or disagree, and follow your strict religious heart. If that heart tells you you must always do exactly what your LOR tells you, whether or not it is a p’sak, then do so with simcha.

Our LOR (plural) almost ran a kosher store out of business, and in fact the owner had to sell his business in order not to go bankrupt. His crime – adding a rav hamachsir, who was extremely reliable and makpid on kashrus, in addition to (not instead of) the local hechsher under which the store existed. This did not sit well with the LORs, and they threatened withdrawal of their hechsher, which although regrettable, would still have left the store under an extremely reliable hecher (that was never a question). Then the LOR proceeded to issue a “suggestion” that nobody patronize this store until the store is again under their hashgocha. That is what happened. Most people who follow their rabbonim implicitly, stopped shopping there. Those who continued to do so, explained that there was no question that the store was under the hechsher and hashgocha of an experienced, reliable mumcheh in kashrus, and that the LOR really had no right to be so arbitrary. After all, does it make a difference if I buy an OU product in a kosher store or in a national grocery chain?

I listened to my rov, but we could see he was extremely uncomfortable with publicly making this “suggestion” to the oilem. So I did not shop at this store until it had changed owners and was once again under the hashgocha of the LOR. I will always feel they were very wrong, especially to cause someone to lose his parnassah, even though he sold the store. it caused the owners great agmas nefesh I am sure. And are there NO stores anywhere that do not have more than one person certifying their kashrus, so that their store is available for any and all Yidden that might want to shop there? Let’s say you only accept KAJ, and someone else only accepts some other certifying vaad. Isn’t it better to have both, so that the KAJ shopper and the Vaad shopper are both satisfied that the store is kosher for their needs?

gavra: “non-faker Gedolim” is an oxymoron.

Oomis, thats ok! I misread what you wrote.

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