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BP Totty is right. Lets see what general advvice everyone has about the Shidduchim process. Ill sort through it with friends and rebbeim. Feel free to say what you think even if youre not sure it’s correct Hashkafa. I’ll check with my rebbeim.
superficial
If thats how you are in real life, superficial, then you should not be dating.
Im a guy, but this is good advice.
Ill give you teh basics.
Look for a mentsch. Someone who looks put together, kind, polite, good middos who is respectful has acceptable social skills and has similar hashkafos to yours and looking to grow in his Yiddishkiet. The guy should also be stable. If hes in learning he shouldnt be jumping yeshivos every year and if he works he should be able to hold down a job for a while. If he is up to a different job every few months there may be something wrong. Stability is important.
Dont get caught up in stupidities. Focus on the person, are they a good person, do you enjoy being with them do you feel like you are compatible with this person…
The most important thing to look for is a tznius’dik girl. Once you verify she is completely 100% tzanuah all the time, and you are otherwise satisfied with her, you can be almost sure all the other hashkofos issies with her will be okay. (Obviously generally check out, but these days a girl who is really tzanuah, is a top girl in everything from middos, etc.)
Wow myfriend, I totally disagree.
1) Look for a person with a plan and a general idea of how to get there. That doesn’t mean the person can’t change the plan, but it helps that they have thought out their path. This generally speaks to a persons maturity.
2) Look for a person you can comfortably converse with and be open with. Open/good communication is probably the most important thing in a marriage.
3) Look at a person’s middos. Does he/she get annoyed by every stupid little thing? Do they help open doors? Are they polite to waiters and others around them? Watch them when they drive.
4) Ask the person about their goals. Do you want to be/have a stay at home mom? Career woman? Kollel? Talk about the large scale goals in life.
5) Ask them about negative experiences in their lives and how they handled it. You can learn a lot about a person from their negative side. Every person has one and its good to look at what their “worst” is.
6) Be honest about what you are or are not willing to compromise on.
Look for a happy, mentschlich person who can communicate well. And look for a person you think you can love.
That’s my point SJS. If she is really tzanuah, all the other things are usually in order. Tznius is so unpopular these days, that is she goes against the tide on this issue, she is likely doing great in the other areas.
myfriend, I know a lot of people who play around with tznius who are wonderful people. I know a lot of people who follow tznius to a T but are awful people in other regards.
Oh, this changes EVERYTHING, Super. I also thought you were a girl, from the screen name… which is not to say all girls are superficial, but for a boy to use a label like that?)
#1 – Do you have any work experience? (And I don’t mean counslor in camp, or selling arrovos as a 15 year old). When I say work experience, I mean working in the outside world, on the road to making a living?
#2 – If you’re not working, are you at least in school (and I don’t mean BMG) where you are training for a careear that can enable you to earn a living that is going to support the family you will have sooner than you (or most boys) imagine?
If your answer to the above is not yet, I’m going to take a pass on this one. I’ts not the path I’m on (or promoting) so I’m not the one to be advising in this case.
And the reason I’m guessing that the answer is going to be no, not yet to both questions is beacuase if you had the exposure to the outside world that either work or school would give you, you’d know a whole lot more about what you need to be looking for in a spouse. Know why? Beacuse you’d know who YOU are, and that is 80% of the challenge. Once you know what your goal is, you can start planning on a travel partner.
Again, I could be wrong and you might be in your mid-20’s and working as a CPA. But the opening post and screen name are giving off mixed signals, so if I’m wrong, please say so and I’ll retract / rewrite the whole post
(but even if I’m wrong, my post still stands for any other bocher who reads this thread.. wanna play in the big sandbox? come prepared!)
superficial
it was rewarding for me to hear words spoken from someone who has a good grasp of the value of the Yeshivah, and what is really the “real world”
Ok, super. If you’re in college, we’re on the same page. As far as yeshiva giving you a clear picture of what lies ahead, speaking as both the product of the yeshiva world (no pun intended YNW) and having kids in yeshiva now, obvoiusly I agree with you to a limited degree. yeshiva is boot camp, the working world is the combat zone. True, you can be a soldier if you don’t go thru basic training, but nothing prepares you for the jungle than the jungle. Take it from a veteran, I’ve got the scars to prove it.
I’m gobbling down lunch as I type, and need to head home, so have (had?) an easy fast and we’ll talk more next week. –
Be realistic. If someone is 200 lbs overweight don’t expect that Barbie look alikes will want to go out with you.
Be true to yourself. Think you want to marry this type of girl. Would that type of girl want to marry me? If the answer is no then what do you have to do to change yourself so you can make the answer yes.
Don’t focus on superficial stuff. It could change any day. Focus on middos and personality.
myfriend – tznius should not be a litmus test for if the girl is a good girl or not. I know plenty of really great girls but tznius is their nisayon. You can’t judge a girl based on her mode of dress.
And I know girls whose middos “is their nisoyon”. Pehaps it too shouldn’t be their “litmus test”? Tznius is as least as important. It most surely should be a litmus test. It is also an indicator of other issues. And a husband is even supposed to divorce a wife who isn’t tznius.
BTW, for whatever reasons you frequently see heavy boys marrying skinny girls.
Tznius is at least important as middos?
I would rather be married to a mentsch who needs help with something changeable than be married to someone who is not a mentsch at all but is externally frum.
“The most important thing to look for is a tznius’dik girl. Once you verify she is completely 100% tzanuah all the time, and you are otherwise satisfied with her, you can be almost sure all the other hashkofos issies with her will be okay. (Obviously generally check out, but these days a girl who is really tzanuah, is a top girl in everything from middos, etc.) “
Please cash a reality check. Tznius does not confer the status of a girl with good middos on anyone. It MIGHT, but there are lots of girls who dress a certain way to be tzniusdig, who are selfish, self-centered, pieces of work. Yes, Tznius is important, but even more than tznius is goodskeit, empathy, kindheartedness, and the desire to make the world a better place than we came into at birth.
Everything is important.
Someone who is really tzanua, though, will also have good middos since she will not brag and try to get attention, and will be humble. It says “v’es tznuim chachma” in mishlei, she will be wise and “v’hatzneia leches im Elokecha” in Micha, she will also be a yarei shamayim. However you cannot tell that all from clothes, there are modest people who do not dress appropriately!
Similarly, someone who is really kind, will not want to cause others to sin and will dress appropriately. However we all know people who have a heart of gold and struggle in this area.
You need to look at the whole person. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, you need to know your own and what you need in order to have a successful marriage.
Personally I think the most important midda in a marriage partner is commitment and the determination to make it work, and a certain measure of selflessness.
When Eliezer was looking for an appropriate wife for Yitzchok Avinu, he (through ruach hakodesh) used midos, not tznius, as a litmus test.
that’s because tznius was a 100% given. he didn’t look for a non-killer either, since that was a 100% given. nowadays, unfortunately, tznius isn’t a 100% given.
so right, why do you think tznius was a given? Perhaps you should read the pasuk that describes Rivka as a “besulah”, and note Rashi’s commentary on the apparent redundancy there.
why don’t you please describe the rashi.
Ayin hara refers to publicly flaunted wealth (see Bava Basra 2b), explicit national census, and even a public Divine revelation. The evil eye caused the loss of wealth, a national plague, and the breaking of the luchos, respectively. The second luchos, which were given privately, lasted, proving that nothing is better than tsnius (Rashi, Shemos 34:3).
Of course, the opposite of these traits are tsnius and chessed, respectively, factors in the test of Rivka that continue to be critical in choosing a wife today. And while the specifics of tsnius are undoubtedly affected, within certain bounds, by time and place (see Rambam Hil. Ishus 13:11 and Minchas Shlomo 91, 23), the concept, as well as its particular application to women (see Rashi Braishis 1:28 and 18:9), is as timeless and universal as the Torah itself.
(Rav Mordechai Willig)
Mental health is the aleph beis. And then –
1- As sister bear said so eloquently, you’ve to be the kind of person you’d like to marry.
2- Middos, lifeplan – and be good friends. That is what turns the spark that gets you married into a lifelong, healthy, fulfilling relationship.
And believe. In today’s messed up world, with siyata d’shamaya, your head screwed on straight, and a trustworthy mentor who’s not just a yes man (or woman) – it can be done. The two nightmares – marrying and being miserable for the rest of your life – or marrying someone who hid all of their chesronos and getting divorced – it doesn’t have to be that way. Believe.
I feel like there is so much pessimism that kids believe that have to settle. Now, settle they must, on hollywood garbage – but not on the real deal.
As chazal teach us, before marriage, keep both eyes open. Afterwards – just one.
so right, I’d rather not explain the rashi explicitly here, because I don’t think it’s appropriate for this forum. But I will say that Rashi comments on the fact that the pasuk describes Rivka as a “besulah” and also notes “v’ish lo yada”, and explains why the language in the pasuk is not redundant as it might seem at first glance.
Reading this commentary makes it clear that tznius was definitely not a given for the local girls/ women in that time.
When Rivka first saw Yitzchak, the pasuk says “She fell off the camel” (Bereishis 24:64). This means as soon as she spotted him she immediately slipped off the camel. The R’dak explain (in his commentary to the Torah) that on hearing he was Yitzchok she “dived for cover”. Due to her modesty and bashfulness, she hid herself from her choson rather than appear immediately before him face to face.
A further reason for slippling immediately off the camel is given by the Rambam. She had been riding the camels back with her legs apart in order to maintain a proper grip and ensure her safety. Now that she saw Yitzchok coming to her, she felt it would be distictly unrefined to remain in that position. She therefore slipped off the camel as quickly as possible.
I’ve met a lot of people that looked like good matches that weren’t. Some things on which you’d better agree upon up front that I’ve noticed have been big problems for some:
(1) Children: How many and what kind of schooling. If you want a daughter to be able to learn all the halachic sources but your prospective partner thinks that is a waste of time, that is a problem. Similarly, of you think a son should only learn Torah but your spouse wants him to have a choice of careers that is a problem.
(2) Where to live: Some people just won’t consider leaving the NY metro area. Other people are called to make aliyah. This can be a deal-breaker.
(3) Career plans: If you want to learn full time and she doesn’t want to work outside the home, you’d better have an independent source of income. In general, lifestyle must fit income and both of you must realize that. Most (not all) careers that generate good income require advanced secular education; my wife and I both have earned doctorates.
(4) Chumrot: If either of you will give up your favorite chumrot in the interest of shalom bayit, you have a problem.
(5) Willingness to go with the flow: HaShem sometimes gives us things we did not expect. We must be willing to take whatever comes, and be flexible. You and your partner should realize that the plans are made by HaShem, and not by us — and be willing to react accordingly.
Then there are things that really don’t matter: What kind of kipah you wear, whether you wear a wig or a headscarf, and other surface things. It is the insides that matter.
I was blessed to find a tzniut woman with good midot who shared my values; I asked her to marry me on the second date. We had met through frumster.com. Baruch HaShem we are still married 5 1/2 years later.
chaerliehall wrote: (4) Chumrot: If either of you will give up your favorite chumrot in the interest of shalom bayit, you have a problem.
I assume you meant: If either spouse will not give up a chumra for shalom bayis then they probably shouldn’t be married.
I other words, chumros are nice if they don’t hurt your marriage. If your chumra is more important to you than your spouse then you have problems. Of course if the spouse is OK with it then by all means continue the chumra…
myfriend: The most important thing to look for is a tznius’dik girl.
oomis: Tznius does not confer the status of a girl with good middos on anyone. It MIGHT, but there are lots of girls who dress a certain way to be tzniusdig, who are selfish, self-centered, pieces of work.
Sister Bear: You can’t judge a girl based on her mode of dress.
I don’t think that myfriend was only referring to mode of dress. Tsnius is about the way a women acts, her dress is just part of it.
That being said, tsnius can be a good indicator of good middos in general, but as mentioned above some girls will be very tzanua but have issues with other middos, others will have a nisayon when it comes to tznius but be a baalas middos tovos otherwise. You have to look at the whole picture.
A wife accepts her husband’s minhugim and chumros with marriage.
“Shittos” about what? It’s the husband’s responsibility on halachic issues.
OK Super, before posting my thougts on the dating process, I want to clarify what I meant regarding the pursuit of a careear.
No one would sugesst that a 15 year old be expected to earn their room and board by working part time. The job of a 15 year old to be a student.
But once you are ready to run a household of youy own, you should be prepared to meet the expenses a family will entail. It may be several years before you have to start paying tution, but its very much on the horizion, and for a bocher to enter the family market without being able to meet is responsibilites is irresponsible. Which is not to say that the job overrides torah values. On the contrary, meeting your financial obligations is very much a torah concept. That said, here’s what I can share with you about the next phase of your search:
Much of what has already been posted is the fundamentals, so let me just repeat a thought from Rav Pam ztl:
When asked, “what should I look for in a spouse?” he replied, “thats like asking me what bus should I take.. if I know your destination, I can advise you which bus will get you where you want to go.”
What to look for in a shidduch is largly dependent on the goals you set for yourself in life. If your dream is to have a house that is always open to guests, and routinly bring home 2-3 people right from shul, its a good idea to be sure you discuss this ahead of time so neither of you are disapointed.
If you expect to have a television-free house, it would wise to mention this as well. And don’t count on the shadchan for having cleared all these hurdles. Your idea of a “chesed filled house” may not be the same as what was relayed in the information gathering / sharing process.
And for what its worth, I started the dating process right after sukkos, and was engaged during Channukah, so hopefully, your search will be as smooth.
Also, if you’ll be dating in the NYC ares, I have a great lead for you; Roosevelt Island. Its an easy drive, there is a parking lot as soon as you enter the island, (and is subway accessable, if you prefer that) and is way less crowded than the standard dating venues.
While the 1st, 2nd and even 3rd date should be by car (your own or rented) its a good idea to see how she reacts to a minor setback. Not what you want to try on every occasion, but a small test to see if she is really committed to making things work, even when its somewhat of a hassle. Life is going to throw you an occasional curve ball, see how good your teammate plays under pressure.
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